A good plane. Bad broker. My first experience trying to buy a plane.

Anthony said:
I don't think a $75K offer on an $85K asking price is a "lowball offer
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Whether it's lowball or not depends on how realistic the asking price was to begin with. There's no magic percentage that things are jacked up by or some magic amount you should bid on something below the asking price. You're going to have to compute your own valuation to the item and offer what you think is going to work.

(I'm not going to argue that in this case $85K was probably not a realistic bid).

I don't understand why people get upset even if it was a lowball offer. It is called negotiating
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And I won't. I sold two houses in the past three years and I didn't "jack the price" up. The listing price was a fair market value. The answer to the low balls is "nope." I don't even counter. Sold the first house in three days at listing price. Sold the other one for just a slight reduction upon receiving a reasonable offer. The one real low ball offer I suggested to my broker to use the Don Corleone counter offer (counter at more than the original listing price).
 
weilke said:
He is wrong on being upset that the 'deal' fell through. There was never a 'deal'. He went to look at a plane, he voluntarily spend money on having a mechanic evaluate the plane and when it came to negotiating the other side was not interested to counter-offer.
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I'm not upset about the deal I'm upset about getting yelled and cursed at and being treated like dirt.
 
Rebel Lord said:
I'm not upset about the deal I'm upset about getting yelled and cursed at and being treated like dirt.
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You said you work in a customer facing position. You should not be suprised about people losing their **** occasionally.
 
weilke said:
You said you work in a customer facing position. You should not be suprised about people losing their **** occasionally.
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And honestly I'm not, it's just surprising what passes of as a "professional"
 
James_Dean said:
I'm perplexed at how a plane got into a mechanics shop without a written agreement and a contingent offer. No f'ing way are you bringing my plane to a strange mechanic to poke around without cash on the barrel.
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One thing I've found in aviation sales is there really isn't much in the way of a SOP. Sure, some brokers and individuals have SOPs in how they operate, but there's just huge variation. The bigger and more expensive the plane, the closer you get to a standard, but even then I've seen a wide variety.

I'm personally with you on having a written agreement in place and either money in escrow or some assurance on it. Plus, I want a shop that I know or know of well enough that there's an expectation of quality and integrity.

The less expensive the plane, the wider the variety in sales, though. I've dealt in sales with zero prebuy, and I've done ones with prebuys by the #1 shop in the country for that particular aircraft type.
 
jbDC9 said:
Man, I hate to nitpick on language, but for you to keep saying this is like nails on a chalkboard... say it with me now;

"my Dad and I..."
"my Dad and I..."
"my Dad and I..."
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Lol sorry about my grammar I'll work in it :D
 
If a buyer wants a "deal" (buy it at a low price), he needs to do a lot of looking. Want one now? Pay more.

One way to buy a plane is to find the best one in the fleet. How do you know it is best, its the most expensive one out there. And, son of a gun, its the best one. How about that?

But lets say you "overpay" by 10k for this plane. Its going to cost about 100/hr to run. Maybe more. That is only 100 hours of time on the airplane. Maybe 6 months to a year of flying. Big deal. If it is a big deal to you, well then youre going to have to spend a lot of time looking and youre going to run into a lot of junk and overpriced planes with buyers that dont want to negotiate. If its a REALLY big deal to you. Like you dont have the extra 10k, you probably shouldnt be buyin a plane that expensive.

The other thing. Owners lie about how much they paid for their plane. My advice. Dont tell ANYONE what you paid for it. They always try and "use it against you".
 
nauga said:
So does requesting (and providing) contact info so that one can harass the broker.

Nauga,
seeking guidance or retribution?
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I don't feel the need to "get back" but I am still POed
 
jbDC9 said:
Man, I hate to nitpick on language, but for you to keep saying this is like nails on a chalkboard... say it with me now;

"my Dad and I..."
"my Dad and I..."
"my Dad and I..."
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You caught that but didn't catch the "hanger"? LOL
But I am with you, I hate poor grammer or bad spelinng. Hate it with passion. Though it's just my CDO talking.


Rebel, shake it off, the guy is just a Dick, nothing you can do about it. Some men are born Dicks, some are born Tw@ts, can't fix 'em all.
As hinted above, call the actual seller and talk to him directly. You might be surprised how nice he might be and how much lower his asking price could be. Maybe your "lowball" offer cut out half the broker's commission. :)

Good luck in the hunt, whether you get this one or not!
 
Rebel Lord said:
I don't feel the need to "get back" but I am still POed
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You might not feel the need but after reading your entire post, I am sure many here do and will have some fun. :)

Though I do have the need ..... the need for ... SPEED! Man, maybe a few lowpasses this weekend could fix me up? ;)
 
BigBadLou said:
I hate poor grammer or bad spelinng.
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Can't resist...

grammar, not grammer. A not E.

spelinng?

or? Meaning as long as it's not both it's okay? Did you mean to say: I hate poor grammar and bad spelling?

Let those without fault cast the first stone...
So I threw that friggin rock!

The above is paraphrased from a Bloom County comic strip.


Just messing with you. Lord knows I've made my share of typos.


Back to the topic, I really think that for the next attempt, you (you meaning the OP, not BigBadLou) should get an agreement on price first. I also like the suggestion that you set up an escrow account prior to the pre-buy. That gives the seller confidence in your seriousness, and, since you have already agreed upon the price, you won't be wasting anyone's time doing the pre-buy. You can always walk away if the pre-buy finds issues which can't be dealt with through a price renegotiation. Also, see if you can review the logbooks prior to the pre-buy. A serious seller should have no issues with making available copies of the logbook for your review. Try to talk with the mechanic who normally maintains the plane. You can get a good idea about its history and status that way.






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Its the market at work. A potential buyer has just been pushed to make a higher offer, if not this plane, then some other plane. And a seller has had a lesson telling him he should lower his price.

And a young pup has learned something.

Let the bidding continue!

Capitalism at its finest!
 
Just wanted to let everyone know that the broker sent me an email, he apologized to me and my dad and expressed embarrassment for his response, I'm going to let bygones be bygones.
 
CC268 said:
Should have kicked him in the dick.
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THAT would be funny to watch. :crazy:

I'm glad you all walked away. Keep looking. You'll find your "Kate" out there.

btw...leaving TX to buy a plane can also be a tax writeoff for the company, and maybe a nice trip for Dad and you.
 
You might consider editing your first post, to include ONLY your experience, and not what the broker "is" or "does" which has lead to things getting filed.
May never have consequences, but it's quick and cheap insurance to edit it.
 
Rebel Lord said:
Just wanted to let everyone know that the broker sent me an email, he apologized to me and my dad and expressed embarrassment for his response, I'm going to let bygones be bygones.
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That's nice; yes, move on. Life's too short to worry about revenge. I do wonder if he's starting the process of trying to lure you back. If so, I wouldn't go down that path. Fool me once...

Learn from the experience and all the good advice on this forum from people who have bought planes and move on to the next plane a wiser buyer. As I related in one of my previous posts, I learned I few things when I bought my plane. My first target was a Cessna 185. Beautiful plane, and I was in love. Didn't work out, and I was a little wiser when I found the plane I actually ended up buying.

Don't fall in love with the plane till it's actually yours.



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At 85K I hope that plane had a killer panel. Didn't know Archers brought that kind of scratch.
 
You didn't ask for advice, but heck it's the internet so..... buy a Tiger. For 85K you could get a beauty, enjoy flying it more and get every $$$ back if and when you sell it.
 
jimhorner said:
Back to the topic, I really think that for the next attempt, you (you meaning the OP, not BigBadLou) should get an agreement on price first.
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So, the buyer normally agree on price from a remote location based on the photos and related description within an online ad to show seriousness, takes a test flight, and has a professional inspection, and then adjusts down or cancels based on the inspection?

Is that normal?

As a future buyer, it seems odd to agree on a price before physically seeing the plane. Or am I missing something?
 
register@teamandras.com said:
So, the buyer normally agree on price from a remote location based on the photos and related description within an online ad to show seriousness, takes a test flight, and has a professional inspection, and then adjusts down or cancels based on the inspection?

Is that normal?

As a future buyer, it seems odd to agree on a price before physically seeing the plane. Or am I missing something?
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I have only bought two planes, but I have helped a few others. So far when the plane is remote, we always agreed on the base price that would then be further negotiated after inspections. Avoids travel, paying for an inspection and all the other details if you are not even on the same page.
Something that has also helped, is having a paying for a mechanic on the field for a walk over. Just peak in everything that is open and take pics and document. Usually about one hour of time. This lets the seller know you are serious, and also gives a good early indication of the plane.

Tim
 
comanchepilot said:
is there a good broker?
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I know satisfied customers of VanBortel (Cessnas), Carolina Aircraft (Beech), Latitude (Beech/TBM) and Steele (Cirrus).
There are definitely a couple that provide a service valuable enough to their clients to create repeat business.
 
weilke said:
I know satisfied customers of VanBortel (Cessnas), Carolina Aircraft (Beech), Latitude (Beech/TBM) and Steele (Cirrus).
There are definitely a couple that provide a service valuable enough to their clients to create repeat business.
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Neal (Lattitude) was very good. Lone Mountain Aircraft was also good when buying/selling my SR20.
 
Rebel Lord said:
Lol sorry about my grammar I'll work in it :D
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no need. grammar, spelling are all made up things by some people. both were whole lot different 200 years back and will be different another 200 yrs from now
 
My 2 cents.... If you are really that inexperienced, you really should think about a buyer's broker... If not, you need to do a lot of research about how the ownership transfer occurs. There can be some landmines along the way. You should not expect any broker to act in anyone's interest but his own (and maybe his client).... I think AOPA has services to help you navigate the Nuances. But I really think you need to get some assistance from some entity that has your interests at heart.... My 2 cents are spent... Good Luck!!!
 
register@teamandras.com said:
So, the buyer normally agree on price from a remote location based on the photos and related description within an online ad to show seriousness, takes a test flight, and has a professional inspection, and then adjusts down or cancels based on the inspection?

Is that normal?

As a future buyer, it seems odd to agree on a price before physically seeing the plane. Or am I missing something?
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Think of it this way. Why would one want to spend the time and money to go see a plane and do a pre-buy inspection if there wasn't already a good likihood that a deal could be reached? I guess if the buyer is willing to pay the seller's asking price, then yeah, one could go ahead and look at the plane, but even in that case, what if the plane wasn't as advertised?

The plane I bought was in Texas, and I live in California. There was no way I was going to wait until I saw the plane to start the negotiation. Why travel all the way to TX if I didn't have a reasonable expectation that we would have a deal?

I did a LOT of up front work and due diligence prior to going to see the plane. I spoke with the seller on the phone several times. I saw copies of the log books. I spoke with the plane's mechanic. I used the AOPA VREF tool, and I purchased a membership in aircraft blue book to get a good sense of a fair price. I looked at the avionics and did some research on the value of that. I spoke with other owners of that type to get their opinions and recommendations for a knowledgable mechanic.

Then I entered into the negotiation with the seller. He knew I was serious because of the research I'd done, and we agreed to a fair price. Only at that point did I then invest the time and money into a plane ticket for me and my mechanic to go do the pre-buy and test flight. A plane is an expensive investment, and I didn't want to spend time and money going to see it and do the pre-buy if I didn't already have a price agreement that I could live with.

Even when I was looking at a Cessna 185 closer to home, I went to take a cursory look at it before doing anything else, but I then did all of the due diligence and price negotiation prior to the pre-buy. The pre-buy should be the confirmation that the plane is as represented by the seller and that there are no major issues. Price should already be set and agreed to prior to that point. Any post pre-buy negotiation should only be covering adjustments to the agreed upon price based on issues found by the pre-buy.

Does that make sense?


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Rebel Lord said:
Just wanted to let everyone know that the broker sent me an email, he apologized to me and my dad and expressed embarrassment for his response, I'm going to let bygones be bygones.
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Someone from POA must have flagged him.
 
nauga said:
That ability passed when other people started posting the owner's contact info.

Nauga,
who knows you can't unbreak an egg
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But all of that posted info is publicly available and can be derived from the N number of the plane as seen in the Trade-A-Plane ad. The broker's info is also in the ad.

The only thing I think the OP should be careful of is clearly deliniating his facts from opinions in his original post made when he was angry. I see no harm in the OP sharing his experience with others.


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weilke said:
I know satisfied customers of VanBortel (Cessnas), Carolina Aircraft (Beech), Latitude (Beech/TBM) and Steele (Cirrus).
There are definitely a couple that provide a service valuable enough to their clients to create repeat business.
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Good list - and we all know to stay away from Tarron Bhomas . . . .
 
jimhorner said:
But all of that posted info is publicly available and can be derived from the N number of the plane as seen in the Trade-A-Plane ad. The broker's info is also in the ad.
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So when someone offered to harass the broker a link to the ad was posted. When someone encouraged contacting the owner, his contact info was posted here. Regardless of the ease of access to contact info, I don't think it needs to be dragged further into the public eye here for retribution. A review of the POA TOS might be in order.

Nauga,
and a piece of PII
 
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