A Cirrus Piston Twin - Practical?

[Radar Contact]

If lack of engine reliability is what justifies the chute, why have it on the jet?

My guess would be that even though jet/turbine engines are more reliable than pistons, it's still a single point of failure on the SF50

 

[flyingcheesehead]

If lack of engine reliability is what justifies the chute, why have it on the jet?

That is not why Cirrus builds every airplane with a chute.

THIS is why Cirrus builds every airplane with a chute.

The pilot under the hood in the 182 was Alan Klapmeier, who founded Cirrus with his brother Dale. Landing with a good chunk of wing and most of an aileron missing is bound to make an impression... And an SF50 can have a mid-air or any of the other reasons Cirri have chutes (pilot incapacitation, control failure, etc) just as easily as an SR-22.

 

[Lindberg]

That is not why Cirrus builds every airplane with a chute.

THIS is why Cirrus builds every airplane with a chute.

The pilot under the hood in the 182 was Alan Klapmeier, who founded Cirrus with his brother Dale. Landing with a good chunk of wing and most of an aileron missing is bound to make an impression... And an SF50 can have a mid-air or any of the other reasons Cirri have chutes (pilot incapacitation, control failure, etc) just as easily as an SR-22.

Then it makes just as much sense to have it in a twin.

 

[Brad W]

I'm surprised then, that cirrus doesn't design the chute system to work starting at a lower altitude.
the collision happened 1600 ft, which I'm assuming would be pattern altitude or at least close to it.... & I'd suppose most collisions happen at or below pattern altitude.
But when I watch Niko and others on youtube they always tick their checklists that "CAPS is Available" at something like 1,000 ft or more....

Just a practical compromise perhaps....

 

[jordane93]

I'm surprised then, that cirrus doesn't design the chute system to work starting at a lower altitude.
the collision happened 1600 ft, which I'm assuming would be pattern altitude or at least close to it.... & I'd suppose most collisions happen at or below pattern altitude.
But when I watch Niko and others on youtube they always tick their checklists that "CAPS is Available" at something like 1,000 ft or more....

Just a practical compromise perhaps....

It’s available at 400-500ft depending on the model.

 

[Tantalum]

Maybe, but Piper had a record year for Meridian sales in 2018, also outselling the TBM for the first time since 2007. The more expensive M600 is outselling the M500 by 2:1.

But Cirrus still delivered more jets than Piper or TBM sold turboprops. We'll see how things fare as Cirrus works off the initial new product order backlog in the next few years.

I could be wrong, but I think Piper also appears not just on price, when compared to TBM, but also on familiarity. If you learned on a P28.. and owned one form of Piper or another throughout the years, then eventually when you have the buying power it might not make sense to suddenly jump to TBM or Vision Jet, etc.. The Pipers certainly have a ramp presence.. I'm just not a fan of the square and oddly spaced windows. I like that the TBM gives you airliner-style windows, and the Vision Jet (eye of the beholder and all that) has a certain sex appeal to it and novelty factor to it

 

[Tantalum]

Niko

That guy is a raging fool. WATCH ME FLY A SINGLE ENGINE PLANE. I ALMOST DIED. EMERGENCY MAYDAY. He's the Tabloid equivalent of aviation and gives Cirrus, pilots, and all human beings a bad name

something like 1,000 ft or more

They're just being sloppy, or wrong. Depending on year it's available at either 400 or 600 AGL.. and these calculations are max gross. There are survived accidents with deployments lower than that

 

[Tantalum]

Personally I’d rather have the second engine than the chute

On pure theoreticals, I agree. You can't replace the added benefit of a second engine. BUT, when you factor these items below, and everything else in.. it pushes the scales to chute, or accepting the risk of a single engine
-need multi engine training
-need to maintain multi engine currency AND proficiency so you don't spiral dive and kill yourself when it actually comes time to USE that second engine
-double the oil
-double the maintenance
-double the fuel burn
-double the potential headaches of engine issues
-double the risk of a power failure
-very weak, and in some cases basically useless, single engine performance. The DA62 is very respectable on one engine.. many planes though are literally just going to keep you in the air a little longer until you crash.. an 8,000 foot single engine ceiling is going to be useless in many parts of the country, especially on hot days

If lack of engine reliability is what justifies the chute, why have it on the jet?

You still only have one engine, and jets do fail. It's not just that though.. the chute also works for
-grandpa has a stroke, so someone else pulls it
-loss of control/disorientation
-overcome with ice
-you're an idiot and can't avoid a stall, or worse, spinning it (and yes, it can recover from a spin, but if you're a bad enough pilot to get into a spin you probably aren't recovering either, so just pull the damn thing)
-mid air collisions (which is, actually, WHY, it was designed)
-etc

 

[schmookeeg]

A Vmc roll would require the pilot to over-ride the Cirrus Envelope Protection System.

Been thinking about this off and on all week, and I realize I don't understand how the Cirrus envelope protection system works, or would work in a twin.

Does the autopilot in that case 'fly the emergency' ?? How would it do 'the drill' in a twin without auto-throttles (AND auto-props?)

What does it do now in a single if you chop the power? Does it nose the plane over nicely to Vglide?

A twin that handled 'the drill' for me is both interesting (as I like to fly with my feet on the floor, or sideways reading my iPad), but scary at the same time as that's a near Tesla-like control over the plane in the hands of the automation. I can get used to that last bit, though.

 

[Tantalum]

What does it do now in a single if you chop the power?

It will go into an under speed protection mode, yell at you, and pitch forward maintaining a certain speed above stall

The envelope protection already has certain pitch and bank thresholds as well

 

[Tantalum]

^I forget the exact number but I want to say it's around 80 knots on the low end and 185 knots on the high end, both are well within the actual stall and never exceed limits

 

[jordane93]

It will go into an under speed protection mode, yell at you, and pitch forward maintaining a certain speed above stall

The envelope protection already has certain pitch and bank thresholds as well

I thought all you get is an aural “stall” warning? I don’t remember a pusher involved. The only automatic flight control would be the ESP protection in an over bank situation.

 

[Tantalum]

I thought all you get is an aural “stall” warning? I don’t remember a pusher involved. The only automatic flight control would be the ESP protection in an over bank situation.

*with autopilot on.. I should have clarified

 

[schmookeeg]

It will go into an under speed protection mode, yell at you, and pitch forward maintaining a certain speed above stall

The envelope protection already has certain pitch and bank thresholds as well

Thanks. So if I'm understanding things, to handle a twin OEI situation, this is a wildly insufficient system.

 

[Tantalum]

I will have to check my notes though, I feel like with the addition of the angle of attack indicator there is a genuine stick pusher now as well..

 

[Tantalum]

Thanks. So if I'm understanding things, to handle a twin OEI situation, this is a wildly insufficient system.

I think the presumption was that the system would be modified to help mitigate pilot workload an engine out operations, the diamond da62 already does this to a degree.. but otherwise, yes you are correct, the standard Garmin GFC 700 would be dramatically insufficient

 

[Tantalum]

@jordane93 I think this is a new feature that is now included with the perspective software upgrades, this is in the PowerPoint from Cirrus.. it's not speed sensitive but it appears that there's a stick pusher based on angle of attack. Unless I'm crazy I'm pretty certain the last time I attempted a stall I felt the pusher.. for landing it's inhibited at a certain altitude