A Cirrus Piston Twin - Practical?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Sinistar, Jan 20, 2020.

  1. Sinistar

    Sinistar En-Route

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,546
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brad
    Clearly Cirrus is doing something right and making some darned nice airplanes. A parachute across all models, now a jet with autoland and a trainer that will probably sell quite well. So it had me wondering....could Cirrus pull off a piston twin? Would there be a market for it given all the aging piston twins. Could they still have a chute? Maybe something like:

    7 Seats (2front + 2 + 2 + 1)
    Retract
    Twin turbo xxxhp engines
    Say 270mph cruise up at altitude (so a bit faster than a Aerostar)
    35gph leaned out
    160gal with option for more.
    If possible steal from the 602P series aerostart and have counter rotating props
    Pressurized
    AC
    FIKI
    Air-stair door
    Auto-Land
    The iPhone app :)
    Priced about halfway between a SR22T and SF50

    ...so a bit larger than the SF50 or SR22 for the bigger family or business. Something faster and more modern than the older twins. Maybe funky options like trade the 7th seat for a commode. Something bigger and faster than the new Barron's or Diamond Twins but more like the DA62 yet faster and at least 1 more seat.
     
  2. gsengle

    gsengle Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,031
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Gsengle
    Most of the point of having a chute is to get most of the upside of a second engine with little of the downside... so no, it doesn’t make sense to me at all. Personally I’d rather have the second engine than the chute....


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    OkieAviator and Todd82 like this.
  3. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2014
    Messages:
    2,956
    Location:
    Statesville NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Grum.Man
    The only reason to offer a piston twin would be for a larger load. Their thinking is the chute mitigates the need for a second engine from a safety standpoint. I think if they do go for a 6 seat model it will likely be a turbo prop as there aren’t many piston engines out there that can get the performance people expect out of a modern 6 seat airplane.
     
    flyingcheesehead and RyanShort1 like this.
  4. falconkidding

    falconkidding Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2014
    Messages:
    609
    Location:
    great white north
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Falcon Kidding
    2.3 mil jet 8 900k single not a huge market for a 1.5 mill twin imho.
     
    TCABM likes this.
  5. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    51,606
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    Going with this. Most NEW buyers up there are buying single turboprops.
     
    Clip4 and Zeldman like this.
  6. schmookeeg

    schmookeeg Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2008
    Messages:
    1,479
    Location:
    Hipsterdelphia PDX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mike Brannigan
    Gotta agree. The "ELOS" line of thinking has me believing my second mill is worth a chute in trade.

    Plus when a, ahem, under-talented Cirrus Twin pilot forgets to clean up the dead engine, gets slow, and the thing enters a Vmc roll... I'm guessing the violence would be too much for even a chute to un-fornicate and "save"

    I think the cabin of the jet with a turboprop on the nose makes more sense to me. That cabin is gorgeous.
     
    TCABM likes this.
  7. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,361
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ and Ensenada, Mexico
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    rgbeard
    Counter-rotating props is an "aerostart" exclusive?

    Ummmm, no.
     
    Groundpounder likes this.
  8. wayne

    wayne Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2007
    Messages:
    1,397
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    wayne
    A pressurized turboprop single would be a better match for the current market. Too close to their jet though.



    Wayne
     
    zaitcev and flyingcheesehead like this.
  9. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    11,585
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    I think if you have enough disposable cash for a 1.5 million twin, you got 2.3 million for a jet. With operating costs not much more than the twin.
     
    Jim K and Tantalum like this.
  10. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2014
    Messages:
    2,956
    Location:
    Statesville NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Grum.Man
    While true they could have different markets. A Piston twin should have a larger payload than the jet.
     
  11. Warmi

    Warmi Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2017
    Messages:
    298
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Warmi
    I would say, as far as safety, chute is more versatile than a second engine - if can save your ass in quite a few more scenarios than just an engine outs.... just don’t try it over a large body of water :)
     
  12. gsengle

    gsengle Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    May 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,031
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Gsengle
    It may be cost effective but nothing is more versatile than having something that keeps you flying all the way to a runway. That can save you even at low altitude. And that contributes rather than reduces performance...


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Groundpounder likes this.
  13. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    5,032
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    No. The DA62 is barely selling.. outside of the chute you basically described a DA62

    The DA62 and SR22 are at the upper end of what people will pay for piston power. The DA62 at least has crazy low gph engines, 16 combined, and can burn JetA. But a twin SR22 (SR44?) would be a whopping 30-40 combined if they kept those Continental 550 engines.. I doubt you get twice, or even 1.5 times the speed or useful, hell the DA62 is slower
     
  14. Geosync

    Geosync Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2016
    Messages:
    116
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Geosync
    This. Any self respecting rich CEO or tech mogul is going jet, not piston. And for insurance purposes, owner flown single pilot twin engine is a harder sell - see: the countless 300 and 400 series Cessna crashes every month. So they would make an unsellable product, dropping millions into development and certification, and then get sued like crazy when the few that doe sell are balled up by Rich CEOs with get-there-its in icing at night.
     
    Rein Hart likes this.
  15. tspear

    tspear Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2010
    Messages:
    2,041
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timothy
    Can Cirrus do so? Yes. Will they, no way.
    They could have made life a lot easier and gone twin turbine.
    Also, you number is low. I used to cruise 265 KTAS; which is a fair amount faster than 270 mph.

    Tim
     
  16. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    26,653
    Location:
    Land of Savages
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    steingar
    Has the OP noticed what happened to the twin market? I can’t imagine Cirrus being stupid enough to jump into that.
     
    Tantalum, Rein Hart and NoHeat like this.
  17. Brad W

    Brad W Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2019
    Messages:
    212
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    BLW2
    yeah, no. Agree with the idea that a twin seems to fit into an empty niche. Seems to me that a twin needs to be a low end trainer just to get folks through the rating and building some time.... so much lower cost and efficient for schools to operate
    But I'm hoping by the time I win the lottery cirrus has a 5 place high wing version for me to consider
     
  18. NoHeat

    NoHeat En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2009
    Messages:
    3,826
    Location:
    Iowa City, IA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    17
    Cirrus has a Chinese owner, and I can imagine that owner would be interested in something that makes sense in China, if they are to pay to develop another airframe. Not sure what that would be — maybe nothing at all, since GA doesn’t seem to be happening in China.
     
  19. Rein Hart

    Rein Hart Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2018
    Messages:
    64
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    TOGO
    A single pilot twin engine jet with parachute and similar spacious interior as the SF50 would make more sense.

    Realistically, they will just continue improving current models with technology advancements.
     
  20. wheaties

    wheaties Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2019
    Messages:
    124
    Location:
    NJ
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    wheaties
    Tecnam and Diamond already own the more-than-one training market. So going low makes no sense and going higher eats into the jet.
     
  21. Warmi

    Warmi Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2017
    Messages:
    298
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Warmi
    Tecnam is not really in the same market. P2006T cruises at 135 knots ( vs 175 for D62 ) burns 9-10 gallons per hour ( vs 16 for D62 ) and retails for 430 k vs 1.3 million for D62.
     
  22. FormerHangie

    FormerHangie En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2013
    Messages:
    2,912
    Location:
    Roswell, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FormerHangie
    Technam and Piper build similar numbers of twins.
     
  23. flyer770

    flyer770 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    195
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Flyer770
    You’re missing the DA-42, which is aimed at the same training market as Tecnam.
     
  24. schmookeeg

    schmookeeg Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2008
    Messages:
    1,479
    Location:
    Hipsterdelphia PDX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mike Brannigan
    Turbo 550s maybe. NA 550s like mine are in the 24-26gph range depending on the pilot's lead-footedness.

    I love the DA62. I wonder who buys those things, though -- for the money, you can get a lot of punch with a TP single or even certain TP twins.
     
  25. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    5,032
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    DA62 is awesome, proper modern twin! But it's admittedly a small market to fill.. people with well over $1,000,000 to burn on a plane have a lot of options and unfortunately piston planes are usually not among it
     
  26. farangutan

    farangutan Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    May 14, 2019
    Messages:
    23
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    farangutan
    Good point. Maybe their next design would be affordable trainers so they don't have to send people to the states for pilot training.
     
  27. jallen0

    jallen0 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    287
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jallen0
  28. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    5,032
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    But that was also in a properly bad a$$ plane. The Aerostar will forever be on my wishlist

    Given the DA62's performance, I doubt Cirrus, or anyone, would be able to able to achieve Aerostar figures with the kind of purchase, operating costs and fuel efficiency today's buyer demands, while keeping costs low enough

    At some point someone who is ready to spend that much cash on a plane is going to be looking at turbines.. you can get into a Piper turbine for less money, more reliability, speed, etc.
     
    tspear likes this.
  29. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2016
    Messages:
    1,578
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    midwestpa24
    I'm not sure there is much room for an aircraft between the SR-22 and the SF50 jet. The price delta between them isn't that great, especially for their usual customer base. I can't imagine they could field a twin in the category for much less than the jet, so they would be just competing with their own product.
     
    GRG55 likes this.
  30. flyer770

    flyer770 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    195
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Flyer770
    The only thing I can think that might be marketable in that gap would be a six place piston single.
     
    Tantalum likes this.
  31. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    7,429
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    I doubt it.

    ^^^This.

    Virtually impossible to compete with the used 6-place pressurized turbine market in that gap between the SR22 and their jet. And, these planes have no waiting time (although you also won't get the music and light show at the Delivery Center either, if that's vitally important to you. ;) ).

    Just a few current listings as examples:

    2015, 280 TT, asking $1.619 mil
    https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/190403035/2015-piper-meridian

    2013, 940 TT, asking $1.395 mil
    https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/165450291/2013-piper-meridian

    2014, 700 TT, asking $1.450 mil
    https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/70819687/2014-piper-meridian

    2103, 850 TT, asking $1.399 mil
    https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/189860963/2013-piper-meridian
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
    Tantalum likes this.
  32. SixPapaCharlie

    SixPapaCharlie May the force be with you

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2013
    Messages:
    14,285
    Location:
    North Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    6PC
    Its actually been done.

     
    Texan Pilot, NoHeat and deonb like this.
  33. flyer770

    flyer770 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2017
    Messages:
    195
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Flyer770
    Which is why I emphasized the word might. Cirrus is doing quite well for themselves and my money is on an improved jet in a few years, and marketing their trainer plane. Get them at both ends.
     
  34. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2015
    Messages:
    7,429
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Aztec Flyer
    "Castoring main wheels" :rofl::rofl:

    Can we get an update on the progress of the two aerobatic students in the background picture?
     
  35. Salty

    Salty Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    5,367
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    I'd rather see a retract single engine version. It could even shoot the chute if you go below pattern altitude without the gear down. ;)
     
  36. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2013
    Messages:
    9,443
    Location:
    Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fast Eddie B
    Thanks! I vaguely remembered that and Google could not come up with a "Cirrus Twin" image. Maybe it will now!

    [​IMG]
     
    deonb likes this.
  37. Brad W

    Brad W Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2019
    Messages:
    212
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    BLW2
    My thought about the single turbine market is this.... even if I were to win some unlimited lottery, I'm not so sure I'd be in that market because I'm flying for fun and that sorta becomes a flight level airline ride at that point. Capability to get up high and go places is nice, but a bit lower and slower is a niche I'm drawn to in my daydreams.....
     
    flyingcheesehead likes this.
  38. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2018
    Messages:
    3,001
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kenny Phillips
    A Vmc roll would require the pilot to over-ride the Cirrus Envelope Protection System.
     
    Tantalum likes this.
  39. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    5,032
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    hahaha, "unfornicate" - I have to use that at some point

    But to Kenny's point.. I believe if Cirrus were to actually undertake a twin project it would have a pretty robust envelope protection and engine out automation, or at least assistance, that one might not find on older models. The DA62 videos and engine out demonstrations basically make it appear as a more or less "non event" with auto feathering of the dead engine, rudder boosting, etc.

    But the whole point is moot.. Cirrus ain't gonna build a piston twin

    Not all turboprops are TBM / PC12.. the Caravan could fit the bill for your mission, or something like a Porter, etc
     
  40. tspear

    tspear Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2010
    Messages:
    2,041
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Timothy
    For some reason I have always been partial to the Quest Kodiak.

    Tim
     
    MIFlyer likes this.