A brush with the TSA today...

Cavorter said:
o_O

Point is being the pilot/driver/whatever of a mass transportation vehicle does not make your opinion more important than mine as a passenger in the back of that vehicle.

You stated that point as if you're something special. You're not. .
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Never did I say I was special. And last I knew pilots fly planes, not 'drive' them. If you're a pilot you should know that, which you do 'cause you wrote that as an insult. However being on the line (flying an airline schedule) means I was around all this TSA crap a lot closer than you, as a passenger, will ever be and some of the crap they not only pull on passengers but crew. Many of them get their rocks off attempting to get something on a crew member. Seen it many times. Finally if you write on POA and expect others to fall in line with your views you are really out to lunch.

Bus Driver
 
Bobcat1 said:
The TSA is pretty much a useless make work bureaucracy for the otherwise unemployable. I found a couple of 'em on my plane before a flight. They started giving me grief because the drop down O2 mask panels didn't have tamper proof tape across the gap. I managed to get their names and badge numbers before I ran their useless asses off of my airplane.
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Damn, tamper tape across an O2 panel is perhaps one of the dumbest things that I have heard suggested. What sort of aircraft training do these people receive? Do they not at least have just a little common sense?
 
Cavorter said:
o_O
The huge majority of those in the TSA are doing a great job.
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The TSA only catches 4% of attempts to smuggle prohibited items into planes. By what standard is that "a great job"?

It is estimated that approximately 50% are engaged in some type of misconduct, such as theft or abuse of passengers - how can that be doing a "great job" ?

They are asked to perform an overall task which is statistically speaking nearly impossible for them to succeed at. This type of system will tend to corrupt people. So in that sense it is not the case of terrible individuals failing, but rather that screening for this type of very rare attack is a fundamentally flawed idea. Nonetheless, I believe individuals should be held responsible for choosing to perform such jobs.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Not when it comes to pre-boarding security.
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If the decisions were made by the airlines, or by the PIC for the flight, I doubt we would have the 3.1 oz liquids rule or several other silly TSA rules.

I would agree that privatization of the airline security is the best answer. That way the airlines, their PICs, and the passengers can decide on the most appropriate trade-offs between security and convenience in a market driven process.

Have a website about this. See http://RealAirlineSecurity.org
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
The TSA only catches 4% of attempts to smuggle prohibited items into planes.

It is estimated that approximately 50% are engaged in some type of misconduct, such as theft or abuse of passengers - how can that be doing a "great job" ?
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Can you give me a link to the data supporting that so I can edumacate myself? Thanks.
 
ircphoenix said:
As I stated in another thread... there were 0 hijackings of commercial passenger airliners in the United States in 14 years prior to 9/11.
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Was it only 14 years for a hijacking? If we don't count the explosion near Long Island in 1996, I believe the last time an airliner leaving a US airport was destroyed by a non- crew member was 1962, 39 years prior to the formation of the TSA.
 
Cavorter said:
Can you give me a link to the data supporting that so I can edumacate myself? Thanks.
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Regarding nearly half of TSA employees engaging in misconduct, here is one article with other links to start: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...-misconduct-nearly-third-multiple-times.shtml (google search on "fraction of tsa employees engaging in misconduct" will give others as well).

Regarding only catching 4% of contraband, here is one such article to start: http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/01/politics/tsa-failed-undercover-airport-screening-tests/ (google search on "amount of contraband caught by TSA" will give others).

The basic numbers in both cases are ultimately derived from government sources, which one would expect, if anything, to provide an optimistic view of the TSA's performance. By almost all objective measures, the TSA's performance is dismal, though this may reflect primarily the fundamental flaw of trying to prevent terrorist attacks by massive screening of otherwise innocent people.
 
Clark1961 said:
You are mistaken. Perhaps you need to learn about the responsibilities and duties of the pilot-in-command. The PIC's opinion far outweighs any passengers.
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Perhaps you need to learn when those responsibilities and duties begin:

CFR 121.533

(d) Each pilot in command of an aircraft is, during flight time, in command of the aircraft and crew and is responsible for the safety of the passengers, crewmembers, cargo, and airplane.

(e) Each pilot in command has full control and authority in the operation of the aircraft, without limitation, over other crewmembers and their duties during flight time, whether or not he holds valid certificates authorizing him to perform the duties of those crewmembers.
 
GlennAB1 said:
That tape is easily broken, it's in its design. I've seen the panels taped with duct tape still open when performing a mask drop check.
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you may be right, but as big a stickler that you are about the regs and specs and other FAA documents, do you have FAA paperwork that shows that is allowed?
bob
 
unsafervguy said:
you may be right, but as big a stickler that you are about the regs and specs and other FAA documents, do you have FAA paperwork that shows that is allowed?
bob
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I didn't condone it, just pointing out it's less issue than being made out to be. Provide documentation that it's not allowed.
 
GlennAB1 said:
Perhaps you need to learn when those responsibilities and duties begin:

CFR 121.533

(d) Each pilot in command of an aircraft is, during flight time, in command of the aircraft and crew and is responsible for the safety of the passengers, crewmembers, cargo, and airplane.

(e) Each pilot in command has full control and authority in the operation of the aircraft, without limitation, over other crewmembers and their duties during flight time, whether or not he holds valid certificates authorizing him to perform the duties of those crewmembers.
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See this is where your ignorance comes into play. A Capt's command extends outside of the regs you quoted above also. It's called Company procedures and SOPs, which every airline has and is approved by the FAA. Ever see a Capt kick a passenger off the plane before it even leaves the gate? Capt also has command and responsibility for the entire crew, and that could over a 2-5 day period. Bottom line, a Capt's duties and responsibilities extends beyond the FARs you quote, and for things a passenger would never be aware of.
 
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mscard88 said:
See this is where your ignorance comes into play. A Capt's command extends outside of the regs you quoted above also. It's called Company procedures and SOPs, which every airline has and approved by the FAA. Ever see a Capt kick a passenger off the plane before it even leaves the gate? Capt also has command and responsibility for the entire crew, and that could over a 2-5 day period. Bottom line, a Capt's duties and responsibilities extends beyond the FARs you quote, and for things a passenger would never be aware of.
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Which has nothing to do with:

Cavorter said:
o_O

Point is being the pilot/driver/whatever of a mass transportation vehicle does not make your opinion more important than mine as a passenger in the back of that vehicle.
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When it comes to pre-boarding security, TSA, which is what this thread is about.
 
mscard88 said:
See this is where your ignorance comes into play. A Capt's command extends outside of the regs you quoted above also. It's called Company procedures and SOPs, which every airline has and approved by the FAA. Ever see a Capt kick a passenger off the plane before it even leaves the gate? Capt also has command and responsibility for the entire crew, and that could over a 2-5 day period. Bottom line, a Capt's duties and responsibilities extends beyond the FARs you quote, and for things a passenger would never be aware of.
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Shucks, you'd be doing your PIC duty over in ops by refusing to sign the release if in your opinion the flight could not be conducted safely; and you wouldn't have even set eyes on the airplane yet.
 
GlennAB1 said:
I didn't condone it, just pointing out it's less issue than being made out to be. Provide documentation that it's not allowed.
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If you're looking at speed tape or duct tape applied somewhere, then it's a temporary fix of some sort. There had better be some indication in the aircraft flight log indicating the reason. If you're looking at some sort of security seal type of application, then there will be bulletins or some sort of dissemination to all the flight crews of the particular airline, followed by a subesequent revision to the Flight ops manual. But going off the reservation and making up stuff willy nilly just isn't done.
 
GlennAB1 said:
There have been numerous terror attacks in the US since 9/11. Any of them could have been directed towards airliners if security wasn't in place to deter them.
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This is an interesting argument because it likely conforms with how the 50% of US citizens who actually think the TSA is doing some good view the situation. There are several lines of argument which suggest that this observation or the similar one that "there have been no more terrorist attacks on airliners since 2001" don't provide reason a to believe the TSA improves traveler's safety.

Perhaps most concretely there is the fact that there have been no terrorist attacks on the lines to enter TSA screening in the U.S. These lines often contain several hundred people who can't have been screened yet, because it is the line to be screened. This is a very attractive target for a terrorist attack, yet none has been performed in the US (it happened recently in Europe). That is likely because this type of attack is very rare and there just aren't that many people in the U.S. who want to commit that kind of terrorist act. It certainly can't be due to the TSA's procedures.

Secondly, there is the fact that the TSA's procedures only catch 4% of attempts to smuggle contraband through the checkpoints. Do we seriously believe that terrorists who are willing to die for their cause would be deterred by a 4% chance of being caught?

Thirdly, the TSA has never been able to provide any evidence that they have prevented a single attack.

Finally, and more abstractly, but perhaps most importantly, these are just extremely rare events so accurately reasoning about their causes or prevention takes a lot of data. The last time a commercial airliner leaving a US airport was certainly destroyed by a non-crew member prior to 2001 was in 1962. There was the explosion off Long Island which some theorized may have been a terrorist attack. Even if we count that, it would require 75 years from 2001 to be able to make a valid statistical argument that the rate of terrorist attacks had decreased since the institution of the TSA.

Given all of this data, what is the likelihood that the TSA's policies have prevented or will prevent a terrorist attack? I think quite low. From a policy perspective, that likelihood has to be balanced against the costs. Given the costs of the TSA, in dollars, other lives lost on the highways due to displacement to more dangerous forms of transportation, and the violation of innocent people's privacy, I think we have to ask -- is it worth it? Incredibly, the TSA has never performed a formal cost-benefit analysis of their policies.
 
Took you awhile to come up with that doozie. :rolleyes:

ONLY one Capt is in charge of each flight. Two Capts flying together? One is the PIC and in charge. Whatya got next?
 
We were told during training about the infamous TSA guy that climbed up the nose of a jet from a set of air stairs. He broke off every pitot tube and AOA vane on that side of the nose. He did this to "test" if a terrorist could do it.

Airlines now park the air stairs at least 6' from the door. Not to protect us from terrorist but to protect us from f@$!ing TSA idiots.
 
CC268 said:
I brought a 6 inch knife onto a plane (to Flordia and back)...on accident. It was in my mesh waterbottle holder on my backpack. Besides the fact that it was black and so was my backpack, it wasn't hard to find (although I didn't see it myself lol).

Got through security at both Sky Harbor and in Florida.
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I've got through security with a 3-4" pocket knife at least 4 times since 9/11. These days if I forget and realize while I'm in the security line I just throw the knife in my backpack. There was once they saw a knife and made me toss it, but I think TSA is a joke.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
The last time a commercial airliner leaving a US airport was certainly destroyed by a non-crew member prior to 2001 was in 1962.
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What about this one:

"7 December 1987; Pacific Southwest Airlines BAe146-200; near San Luis Obispo, CA: A recently fired USAir employee used his invalidated credentials to board the aircraft with a pistol and apparently killed his former manager and both pilots (USAir had recently purchased PSA). All five crew members and the 37 other passengers were killed."

[http://www.airsafe.com/events/hijack.htm]
​
There was also Pacific Air Lines flight 773 in 1964 (Fairchild F-27 from Stockton to SFO). The pilot, Captain Ernest Clark, was the father of airshow performer Julie Clark.

And though not an airliner, a non-crewmember very nearly brought down a FedEx DC-10 in 1994, and severely injured the crew.
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Old Geek said:
How does that work? My understanding is that they aren't sworn LEO's. Do they really have any authority to check your paperwork or cargo?
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61.3(l) states;
Inspection of certificate. Each person who holds an airman certificate, medical certificate, authorization, or license required by this part must present it and their photo identification as described in paragraph (a)(2) of this section for inspection upon a request from:
(1) The Administrator;
(2) An authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board;
(3) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer; or
(4) An authorized representative of the Transportation Security Administration.
 
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