However that is counter to the concept of having a gun 'safety', it's there to protect against errors.
9mm handgun
- Thread starter Ken Ibold
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However that is counter to the concept of having a gun 'safety', it's there to protect against errors.
Doggtyred
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No. But keeping your finger off the trigger is.
IIRC the discharge in the airliner cockpit was a POS holster issue. There is no excuse to build a weapon that can be accidentally discharged when in its 'safe' mode.
Doggtyred
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No such thing as an "accidental discharge". The US military now calls then NEGLIGENT discharges. And does so for good reason.
Any holster that does not protect the Glocks trigger is inappropriate. A discharge resulting from use of an improper holster is negligence.
And it's the handlers fault. Not the equipment.
You can't spin if you don't stall. You can't get pregnant if you don't have sex. And a glock won't fire if you don't mess with the trigger.
Any holster that does not protect the Glocks trigger is inappropriate. A discharge resulting from use of an improper holster is negligence.
And it's the handlers fault. Not the equipment.
You can't spin if you don't stall. You can't get pregnant if you don't have sex. And a glock won't fire if you don't mess with the trigger.
Have you seen the cluster flop of a holster they make pilots use?
If the safety is engaged and you can pull the trigger for a discharge, there is no safety. The entire purpose of a safety is that in case you have a trigger pull on a live round, the pin will not fall on the primer. IMO if that doesn't happen it's a negligent design.
jesse
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Much of the focus on safeties these days is to prevent the firearm from discharging if dropped or slammed into something.
My biggest concern for conceal and carry is that:
1.) The gun discharges when the trigger is pulled. Everytime.
2.) The gun does not discharge if the trigger is not pulled no matter how much it is slammed around.
You should not have a concern for concealed carry. There are 3 areas in the US I won't go into at night without carrying, Franks and Beans in Miami, some parts of the Bronx and some parts of South Central in LA. Outside of that, I feel no need. This whole concealed carry melodrama has just been about bolstering the NRA. I have nothing against it, but really, it's just over hyped for business and politics.
Jessie, you have no need for a weapon that you will have to discharge without having the time to unsafe. In fact, if you are concealed at all you have already admitted to yourself you don't need instant access or you'd have an external holster. I don't get the difference anyway. I've had thumb safe weapons all my life and I've always been able to thumb the safety off during the draw.
To me the Glock is a negligent design for non military use.
Morne
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Morne
Sir, this statement is your fantasy, not reality.
The simple fact is that rapes and murders occur every day outside of your 3 areas. Bad things happen even in "nice places". Bad guys have cars and can drive them to the target rich environments you think are safe.
I have a concealed carry license. I carry almost every time I leave home. I don't go to places that I think I will, "Need a gun," because if I, "Need it," then I should avoid that place altogether. The problem is, criminals don't post a schedule of when they will leave their dens and come find me (or you).
I am not a cowboy. I am not a vigilante. I am solely interested in living through my day so I can see my wife and children. If you think that is some sot of diabolical political agenda, well then we just don't have much in common.
Aside from that, just as a general point of safety (gun or flying) thinking that the bad stuff that happens to others won't happen to you is naive and myopic. It might very well happen to you, and you need to TRAIN for how you will handle it. Otherwise, when Murphy lands in your lap, either as a gangbanger or as an inflight emergency, you will NOT react well.
Gerhardt
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Gerhardt
I would not say that Henning's thoughts are fantasy. He makes some valid points.
I also carry every time leave the house, and even most of the time that I'm at home (simply because I happen to already have it on me). I took a beating on here awhile back when I mentioned that I put one hand on my gun when I answer the door at home. Not so much because I think something bad will happen, but, because as you said, it's possible, and there's no downside to it.
Henning is right that the vast majority of the time we don't need to be armed. You're right in that there is no harm in being prepared. Honestly, I think I stand an exponentially larger chance of being killed in a car accident on the way to the grocery store than of needing my handgun. So I buckle up, with the seatbelt around my LCP.
I also carry every time leave the house, and even most of the time that I'm at home (simply because I happen to already have it on me). I took a beating on here awhile back when I mentioned that I put one hand on my gun when I answer the door at home. Not so much because I think something bad will happen, but, because as you said, it's possible, and there's no downside to it.
Henning is right that the vast majority of the time we don't need to be armed. You're right in that there is no harm in being prepared. Honestly, I think I stand an exponentially larger chance of being killed in a car accident on the way to the grocery store than of needing my handgun. So I buckle up, with the seatbelt around my LCP.
airbornejohnny
Line Up and Wait
The worst feeling in the world is knowing that you need what you do not have on you. While statistics point to the car accident as more likely, there is much more commonly available to prepare. A cell phone to call 911, seatbelts, airbags, and good 'ol defensive driving. Being confronted by somebody better prepared to win lends very few options. Better to have what you don't want to need than to need what you don't have.
So far as the holsters mentioned by Henning are concerned, are there guidelines or is there simply one holster only allowed?
Even aside from the holster, it seems IMO that a weapon with redundant safeties (like a grip safety and trigger safety as on an XD, for example) would serve as a more appropriate tool. Also more attention to training the users.
So far as the holsters mentioned by Henning are concerned, are there guidelines or is there simply one holster only allowed?
Even aside from the holster, it seems IMO that a weapon with redundant safeties (like a grip safety and trigger safety as on an XD, for example) would serve as a more appropriate tool. Also more attention to training the users.
Alexb2000
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Out in public, the whole carry and use thing gets complicated. If some scrungy guy tries to get close to you asking for a handout, do you double tap him? Of course not, so when he is right in your face the gun isn't nearly as good. If a group of dangerous looking guys approach you, do you pull? Not unless you want to go to jail. The problem is by the time your sure that your life is in danger, it's usually very up close, where your gun might be used against you.
I only wish some guy from across the room would scream out, "Hey, I'm about to stick you and take your wallet, here I come, ready or not". That's what they teach people shooting 25' targets at the range.
I only wish some guy from across the room would scream out, "Hey, I'm about to stick you and take your wallet, here I come, ready or not". That's what they teach people shooting 25' targets at the range.
Steve Foley
Pattern Altitude
That's why my weapon of choice is a S&W 642 .38 Special. It can be fired from inside the pocket.
Anthony
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Anthony
That's why the first thing they teach you in any self defense or concealed carry weapons class is to AVOID. Nobody teaches defensive shooting at 25 yards. That is recreational target shooting. Defensive shooting is taught 7 yards and closer.
How is your gun going to be used against you when it is concealed, and the perp doesn't know you have one? If you let someone get close enough to you to touch you, or grab you, you've already lost.
Anyone who carries concealed but doesn't keep up on some type of martial arts based self defense training is like the guy who carries an umbrella but is otherwise in his birthday suit. Outside of a nudist camp on a rainy day, there are going to be few situations where that combination is called for.
jesse
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How much effort do you think it takes to be able to defend yourself via martial arts in an effective manner against a stronger attacker? I am 170 lbs. Effective meaning someone armed with a knife or firearm that is 50 to 80 lbs heavier than myself.
How much effort do you think it takes to be able to defend yourself via a firearm in an effective manner against a stronger attacker that is 50 to 80 lbs heavier armed with a knife or firearm?
Do we owe it to the attacker to take on more increased risk to try in handle them in a way that takes even more time out of our lives? I sure the hell don't want to take limited martial arts training to a gun fight. I have very limited time as it is, I cannot become a martial arts expert.
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You think a firearm will be of much use if a physically superior attacker takes you by suprise ? It's not like on TV.
Steve Foley
Pattern Altitude
You think martial arts will be of much use if a physically superior attacker takes you by surprise? It's not like in the movies.
jesse
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Depends. But I'll have a hell of a lot better shot at it. Do you carry and practice with a firearm? I can discharge a round from carry in normal clothes faster than I can slide the unlock on my iPhone.
Reporting bias.
Nobody posts on the interwebs about how he got his ### kicked while his man-toy was safely tucked away in his iwb holster.
I practice, won't comment on whether I carry or not.
denverpilot
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Bob Noel
And nobody posts on the interwebs about how he got his ### kicked while not carrying
denverpilot
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jesse
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Any firearm I'd carry is easier to operate than an iPhone.I dunno. You're pretty fast with that phone!
airbornejohnny
Line Up and Wait
GEEZ...The first and most important tool to defending yourself is that thing 3 feet above your ass!!! Someone already mentioned it, step one is avoid. Situational awareness is paramount to survival. Human beings can generally take a bit of abuse before being at the mercy of an attacker.
Anthony
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Anthony
"Man toy"? Really?
I could make a comment, but I will stay above that, thank you. The mainstream media does not usually report these incidents. Check the NRA website to see a myriad of these events. And in case you're going to call bias, remember, every anti-gun newspaper (meaning almost all of them), the Brady Campaign, and many liberal activists vet these events carefully, so they are actual incidents, not "reporting bias".
Its not about getting or giving an *ss kicking. Its about saving your life or your family's life. I was the one that mentioned AVOID, remember?
rottydaddy
En-Route
FWIW, the only time I was ever threatened with a firearm, I walked away (with $300 cash in my pocket, yet) although I was not armed.
But that was partly luck- I don't think this kid was prepared to shoot anybody, even though his accomplice kept exhorting him to do so. They did take me by surprise , though... ran up from behind.
He also made the mistake of pointing it at my chest at very close range- I turned to decrease my profile and grabbed his wrist and effectively took control of the weapon, as I had learned to do in kung fu class. What I did not do, for some stupid reason, is follow through (throw him, or strike the face or throat, or break a knee with my foot; would have been easy). I guess I was feeling philosophical, because I was drunk. We had a little staring contest, until his buddy jumped on my back. I stumbled, he broke my grip and hit me with the pistol (maybe it wasn't loaded, LOL), some more scuffling ensued, and realizing he wasn't going to shoot me (probably), and that I was too drunk to do anything but get hurt more (or lose it and kill somebody), I ran. They didn't even follow me.
Anyway, the "one hit self defense" training may not have been the main factor in me not getting shot that night, but it definitely was the reason they did not get my money. Most punks with guns or knives are counting on the intimidation factor for success. The other kind? Well, they will just shoot you. Even if you are carrying, that may not help you in that situation.
If I'd been carrying, either I'd have managed to kill him (in front of a biased witness, assuming I didn't gun down the sidekick just to be on the safe side), or it would have suddenly become a gunfight, with uncertain outcome.
Had he not been carrying, I probably could not have "defeated" them, movie-hero-style, but I'd have still gotten away with my money.
Speaking of martial arts vs. surprise attack by stronger unarmed assailant(s) I also got jumped once by about five attackers who, again, snuck up on me... I noted them about a block behind me, and found them suspicious, but I didn't run because I was about to turn a corner that would put me right near a busy well-lit roadway. Bad call, though... I would also briefly be under a railroad bridge, in the shadows. I should have crossed the road ASAP, but I didn't. First thing was a blow to the back of my head that almost knocked me out. By the time I figured out what was going on, I realized I was not going to do very well. I hurt somebody pretty bad (with my elbow) in the confusion that followed, but they got my wallet. Had quite the bloody nose, too. Good news is that there was no cash or plastic in said wallet... they must have been P.O'ed to realize they'd done all that work for nothing. Some kind soul found my driver's license later and dropped it in a mailbox, so I got that back in a couple of days.
Certainly, a firearm would be an excellent deterrent, if nothing else, assuming the attacker or attackers is not packing. But as both my stories show, you will most likely get blindsided and swarmed... and if they get your pistol (or knife), things could go bad very quickly.
I've never been mugged like in the movies- someone blocking my path and saying "gimme your dough, or else." I'm not a big guy, but I guess I look like I need to be taken by surprise, to avoid complications. That's why it pays, firearm or no, to pay more attention to your "Spidey sense".
My Grandmaster at the time liked to repeat two lessons: Best technique to avoid defeat by multiple attackers? Run! Best technique to avoid defeat in a barroom brawl? Don't hang out in bars!
But that was partly luck- I don't think this kid was prepared to shoot anybody, even though his accomplice kept exhorting him to do so. They did take me by surprise , though... ran up from behind.
He also made the mistake of pointing it at my chest at very close range- I turned to decrease my profile and grabbed his wrist and effectively took control of the weapon, as I had learned to do in kung fu class. What I did not do, for some stupid reason, is follow through (throw him, or strike the face or throat, or break a knee with my foot; would have been easy). I guess I was feeling philosophical, because I was drunk. We had a little staring contest, until his buddy jumped on my back. I stumbled, he broke my grip and hit me with the pistol (maybe it wasn't loaded, LOL), some more scuffling ensued, and realizing he wasn't going to shoot me (probably), and that I was too drunk to do anything but get hurt more (or lose it and kill somebody), I ran. They didn't even follow me.
Anyway, the "one hit self defense" training may not have been the main factor in me not getting shot that night, but it definitely was the reason they did not get my money. Most punks with guns or knives are counting on the intimidation factor for success. The other kind? Well, they will just shoot you. Even if you are carrying, that may not help you in that situation.
If I'd been carrying, either I'd have managed to kill him (in front of a biased witness, assuming I didn't gun down the sidekick just to be on the safe side), or it would have suddenly become a gunfight, with uncertain outcome.
Had he not been carrying, I probably could not have "defeated" them, movie-hero-style, but I'd have still gotten away with my money.
Speaking of martial arts vs. surprise attack by stronger unarmed assailant(s) I also got jumped once by about five attackers who, again, snuck up on me... I noted them about a block behind me, and found them suspicious, but I didn't run because I was about to turn a corner that would put me right near a busy well-lit roadway. Bad call, though... I would also briefly be under a railroad bridge, in the shadows. I should have crossed the road ASAP, but I didn't. First thing was a blow to the back of my head that almost knocked me out. By the time I figured out what was going on, I realized I was not going to do very well. I hurt somebody pretty bad (with my elbow) in the confusion that followed, but they got my wallet. Had quite the bloody nose, too. Good news is that there was no cash or plastic in said wallet... they must have been P.O'ed to realize they'd done all that work for nothing. Some kind soul found my driver's license later and dropped it in a mailbox, so I got that back in a couple of days.
Certainly, a firearm would be an excellent deterrent, if nothing else, assuming the attacker or attackers is not packing. But as both my stories show, you will most likely get blindsided and swarmed... and if they get your pistol (or knife), things could go bad very quickly.
I've never been mugged like in the movies- someone blocking my path and saying "gimme your dough, or else." I'm not a big guy, but I guess I look like I need to be taken by surprise, to avoid complications. That's why it pays, firearm or no, to pay more attention to your "Spidey sense".
My Grandmaster at the time liked to repeat two lessons: Best technique to avoid defeat by multiple attackers? Run! Best technique to avoid defeat in a barroom brawl? Don't hang out in bars!
TMetzinger
Final Approach
I've told the story before, so here's the brief version.
I'm unarmed, and mugged by two younger men, one of whom threatened me with a knife, and then after I'd handed over my wallet, decided he was going to kill me anyway.
End result, knife-wielding mugger is dead (crushed larynx) and his 18 year-old partner ends up being charged with felony murder when it's all over. That's two lives that are just done. If I'd been armed with a handgun I'd have pulled it when they got within 21 feet, and I'm quite certain all three of us would have lived through that night. The two might have come to a similar bad end, but it wouldn't have been at my hand.
Brandishing a weapon is a big deal, but if you can articulate the threat, and you didn't start the problem, it's highly unlikely you'll be charged.
I'm unarmed, and mugged by two younger men, one of whom threatened me with a knife, and then after I'd handed over my wallet, decided he was going to kill me anyway.
End result, knife-wielding mugger is dead (crushed larynx) and his 18 year-old partner ends up being charged with felony murder when it's all over. That's two lives that are just done. If I'd been armed with a handgun I'd have pulled it when they got within 21 feet, and I'm quite certain all three of us would have lived through that night. The two might have come to a similar bad end, but it wouldn't have been at my hand.
Brandishing a weapon is a big deal, but if you can articulate the threat, and you didn't start the problem, it's highly unlikely you'll be charged.
Anthony
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Anthony
Damn Tim. I hope and pray I am never in that position. Avoid, avoid, avoid. Retreat, retreat, retreat. You obviously had no option for either.
I can still run, and will, but my family, not so much, so that is why I advocate legal carry.
I can still run, and will, but my family, not so much, so that is why I advocate legal carry.
Doggtyred
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Glad you survived the encounter. Unfortunate for the bad guys. But they made their choice.
I'm a big fan of Ruger. My mother in law has an SR9 that shoots well. Make sure it's the post-recall trigger model, though. My personal (not carry) is 7.5" .44mag. It's possible I'm making up for some other shortcoming. Haha.
I don't carry in Buffalo (NY) because it's a near-impossible venture which costs way more than I can afford right now. I'm from PA and had my concealed at 21. Not because I felt threatened, but because I wanted to be able to carry if the situation arose. It didn't and I'm thankful. Ironic to me, though, that the likelihood of being mugged was lower where I actually could carry. Here it's illegal to have a slingshot, knife, pepper spray....
Some interesting/ thought provoking stories posted above, and while I never wish to be in that situation I hope if it does occur I'll act accordingly as it sounds you all did. Kyle
I don't carry in Buffalo (NY) because it's a near-impossible venture which costs way more than I can afford right now. I'm from PA and had my concealed at 21. Not because I felt threatened, but because I wanted to be able to carry if the situation arose. It didn't and I'm thankful. Ironic to me, though, that the likelihood of being mugged was lower where I actually could carry. Here it's illegal to have a slingshot, knife, pepper spray....
Some interesting/ thought provoking stories posted above, and while I never wish to be in that situation I hope if it does occur I'll act accordingly as it sounds you all did. Kyle
rottydaddy
En-Route
You did the right thing. Deadly weapon threat, a second assailant who might also be armed... unless you are among the very best, you can't afford to be gentle in a situation like that. One of them, has to go down and not get up, or you could be in big trouble.
I also agree about the handgun... when you perceive a threat early, it's a very useful deterrent. Might end up in a gunfight, but at least you will have brought a gun.
TMetzinger
Final Approach
You did the right thing. Deadly weapon threat, a second assailant who might also be armed... unless you are among the very best, you can't afford to be gentle in a situation like that. One of them, has to go down and not get up, or you could be in big trouble.
I also agree about the handgun... when you perceive a threat early, it's a very useful deterrent. Might end up in a gunfight, but at least you will have brought a gun.
Thanks. I was just finished with school and about to go into the CG at that time. The police told me the same thing once the story was confirmed. I'm not a martial artist, and my step-dad always taught me that there was no such thing as fighting for "fun", you were either practicing to **** somebody up or you were doing it for real. So I never had any real experience except practicing various things he'd taught me.
airbornejohnny
Line Up and Wait
When I was much younger my friends and I learned Ishin-Ryu taught by a Police Chief, who embedded a similar philosophy (modified for 9 year-olds) in us. After the first time I had experienced a real-world situation, I was rather a bit surprised that despite the techniques we learn in the Army (essentially Brazilian Ju-Jitsu), that it was elbow strikes I had learned waaay earlier that stopped the fight. No thought involved, just reacted to the situation, and after we got back from the patrol was recounting everything before I realized who taught me what I'd done.
Evil things will happen regardless, most violent crimes are perpetrated by the ones you love so you'll be more likely to shoot a family member than an attacking stranger. The far vast majority of people will never have cause to need a firearm in the defense of self or others. Even cops go entire careers and never draw. People don't need to walk around lethally armed, for the most part some good pepper spray will do what you need. It's all part of the fear mongering that oppresses our society, the media sells and you play the roll. I don't mind because it's usually stupid on stupid when people get into shootouts and it's not like we have a shortage of stupid out there; we can get rid of some.
I have nothing against concealed carry either, just that when you take the mentality to the point where you will carry an unsafed chambered weapon all the time to shave 1/3rd of a second of your draw pull time in case of an event that is most likely not to occur in ones lifetime, that's pretty bad decision making bordering on paranoia.
Just because it requires negligence to have a discharge with an undesired consequence, especially if you have children does not mean it is not something you guard against. Negligence happens every freaking day. If you believe yourself free from the capacity of negligence, please advise your AME of that fact at your next medical, that is far more dangerous than just "naive and myopic".
BTW, whatever happened to the biometric safed weapons technology?
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Anthony
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Anthony
That is utter nonsense, and a popular line by many anti legal gun ownership individuals. The other one is that you will be shot with your own gun, so don't have one anyway. Hogwash.
So what? My house hasn't burnt down, and neither has anybody I've ever known, but I still carry homeonwers insurance.
It is not up to you or anyone to determine what other people need.
Hopefully, it went the way of other stupid ideas. The worst thing you can have is a gun that malfunctions because of a "safety" fearure or a gun your wife can't use becuase it is yours, not hers.
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Jay Honeck
Touchdown! Greaser!
Took this pic today at the range. The weapon on the left is the Keltec PF-9, a great carry weapon. 9 mm, easily concealable. It's my carry weapon of choice nowadays.
On the right is my S&W 9 mm. Stainless steel, accurate as hell, lives in the end table next to my bed.
Both are terrific hand guns.
On the right is my S&W 9 mm. Stainless steel, accurate as hell, lives in the end table next to my bed.
Both are terrific hand guns.