9mm handgun

Ken Ibold

Ken Ibold

Final Approach
Joined
Feb 21, 2005
Messages
5,889
Location
Jacksonville, Florida
Display Name
Ken Ibold
Home Airfield
CRG
Looking to maybe get a 9mm semi for target shooting. Something inexpensive, no need for carrying. Considering a S&W Sigma or Taurus 809. Any comments or sugggestions?
 
S&W M&P9 full sized is a great shooter and not terribly expensive.

I have an HK P30 LEM that is awesome, but it's north of 7-8 benjamins.
 
I don't particularly care for double action automatics. I'd go for a Taurus Beretta clone or a S&W M39 myself.
 
For target shooting a 9mm is a pretty heavy cal. IMHO. Use a .22 and you will learn control and accuracy, cheap.
 
CZ 75B is well built and inexpensive. It's based on the Browning Hi-Power action.
 
Well, I prefer a Glock 17 for just plinking around with a 9mm but do agree that for target practice a nice Ruger 22 pistol is hard to beat for cheap fun.

My daily carry is a Glock 30 .45acp
 
OK, I've got a question that is probably kind of stupid, considering my background. I own a Colt officers ACP 45.

I've fired or owned everything from British Bren guns, 303, 306, M-14, British swamp and jungle carbines (303) Winchester lever action 30-30, snub nose in both 38 & 32, M1s in both rifle and carbine, recoilless rifles, along with it's 50 cal spotting rifle, 50 cal machine guns, and a bunch of others I can no longer remember. The one thing I have never fired is a 9 mm. What size of bullet is that compared to say a 22 & a 45? Or what would it be comparable to?

John
 
Clark1961 said:
CZ 75B is well built and inexpensive. It's based on the Browning Hi-Power action.
Click to expand...


I have several CZ's and a Browning Hi Power. The CZ-75B while somewhat similar in looks is very different in design to the Browning Hi Power. The Hi Power is single action only and the CZ is Double Action/Single Action. I would recommed either of these for range use as they are all steel, reliable, and very accurate. The BHP will be more expensive. Both guns are available with fixed sites or adjustable sites or can be retrofitted if need be.

Another good choice for target use would be a 1911 in 9MM. Offerings from Colt, Springfield, STI, etc are all good.
 
John Baker said:
The one thing I have never fired is a 9 mm. What size of bullet is that compared to say a 22 & a 45? Or what would it be comparable to?

John
Click to expand...


It is very close in diameter and bullet weight range to the .38 Special.
 
Diameter is about .38 in, bullet weights between 115gr and 147gr. Muzzle energies between 320-450 foot-pound.

So it has more energy than a .38 special and less than a .357 mag or 45ACP.

The cemeteries are full of people who thought it is a 'weak' cartridge.
 
Last edited:
John Baker said:
OK, I've got a question that is probably kind of stupid, considering my background. I own a Colt officers ACP 45.

I've fired or owned everything from British Bren guns, 303, 306, M-14, British swamp and jungle carbines (303) Winchester lever action 30-30, snub nose in both 38 & 32, M1s in both rifle and carbine, recoilless rifles, along with it's 50 cal spotting rifle, 50 cal machine guns, and a bunch of others I can no longer remember. The one thing I have never fired is a 9 mm. What size of bullet is that compared to say a 22 & a 45? Or what would it be comparable to?

John
Click to expand...

http://corneredcat.com/Caliber_Confusion/
 
I really like the 9MM and .45 ACP for centerfire use. 9MM is a great all around cartridge. It can be loaded up to +P+ levels for very good velocity and energy, a bit superior to the .38 Spl +P although, if you reload, and I do, you can get them pretty close.
 
Ken Ibold said:
Looking to maybe get a 9mm semi for target shooting. Something inexpensive, no need for carrying. Considering a S&W Sigma or Taurus 809. Any comments or sugggestions?
Click to expand...

Visit a handful of gun shops and hold all of the ones that interest you. Don't be embarrassed to assume a firing position. You'll find that a lot of the cool-looking guns aren't as comfortable in your hands as you'd think. There are a lot of 9mms that are comfortable and reliable. To be honest, if you're just interested in something for self-defense and target shooting don't limit yourself to 9mms. Take a look at .380s. The diameter is the same and the length of the shell is minutely shorter than the 9mm. I'm a huge fan of the Walther PK380. Very comfortable, reliable, inexpensive and it uses the same ammo as my LCP, TCP and Hellcat so I've always got extra ammo around.
 
Anthony said:
I have several CZ's and a Browning Hi Power. The CZ-75B while somewhat similar in looks is very different in design to the Browning Hi Power. The Hi Power is single action only and the CZ is Double Action/Single Action.
Click to expand...

Just for education/argument: from wikipedia: "The CZ 75 is a short recoil operated, locked breech pistol. It uses the Browning linkless cam locking system similar to that used in the Browning Hi-Power pistol, where the barrel and slide are locked together on firing, using locking lugs milled into the barrel mating with recesses in the roof of the slide. An enclosed cam track integral with the barrel is actuated by the slide release lever's transverse pin. After the first few millimetres of the recoil stroke, the barrel is cammed downwards at the rear, enabling the slide to continue the recoil stroke and eject the spent cartridge."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZ_75

Browning's designs are pure genius from my point of view. They work and produce very nice results. No CAD, no CAM, the man must have had quite an eye for mechanical fit and movement.
 
Gerhardt said:
Visit a handful of gun shops and hold all of the ones that interest you. Don't be embarrassed to assume a firing position. You'll find that a lot of the cool-looking guns aren't as comfortable in your hands as you'd think.
Click to expand...

Good advice.

A friend had a S&W Sigma and the backstrap checkering chewed up the webbing between my thumb and forefinger after two magazines.
 
Clark1961 said:
Just for education/argument: from wikipedia: "The CZ 75 is a short recoil operated, locked breech pistol. It uses the Browning linkless cam locking system similar to that used in the Browning Hi-Power pistol, where the barrel and slide are locked together on firing, using locking lugs milled into the barrel mating with recesses in the roof of the slide. An enclosed cam track integral with the barrel is actuated by the slide release lever's transverse pin. After the first few millimetres of the recoil stroke, the barrel is cammed downwards at the rear, enabling the slide to continue the recoil stroke and eject the spent cartridge."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZ_75

Browning's designs are pure genius from my point of view. They work and produce very nice results. No CAD, no CAM, the man must have had quite an eye for mechanical fit and movement.
Click to expand...


I hear you that it is a locked breech, Browning design, however this is used in just about every centerfire semi-auto made 9MM and above in caliber. The CZ shares no DIRECT lineage from the Hi Power (a Fabrique Nationale product, Browning is just a marketing company) other than the basic locked breech action. To say the CZ is similar in design would also be saying the Glock, HK USP, Sig, Springfield M&P, XD, etc are all similar in design to the Hi Power.

Stephen Camp, recently deceased unfortunately was one of the most knowledgeable Hi Power authorities around. Here are the similarities and differences.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Browning and CZ.htm
 
Last edited:
The only thing I dislike about the Hi Power is that they tend not to reliably feed other than Nato style ball ammo.
 
Sac Arrow said:
The only thing I dislike about the Hi Power is that they tend not to reliably feed other than Nato style ball ammo.
Click to expand...

The MKII, and MKIII (current Hi Power made since the early 90's) feeds everything reliably. The older T series and previous Hi Powers do have a humped feed ramp, that can be easily modified to feed everything.
 
dmccormack said:
Isn't that the case with all 9mm parabellum?
Click to expand...


Where did you hear that? All modern, and even many older 9MM pistols feed everything including the newer hollow points. I have seven pistols chambered in 9MM from various manufacturers and all feed 9MM hollow points, my lead cast reloads or FMJ, 100% reliably.
 
Anthony said:
Where did you hear that? All modern, and even many older 9MM pistols feed everything including the newer hollow points. I have seven pistols chambered in 9MM from various manufacturers and all feed 9MM hollow points, my lead cast reloads or FMJ, 100% reliably.
Click to expand...

:dunno:

We only fed ball ammo through issue Berrettas (tens of thousandd of Govt issue rounds), and my Sig 229 and S&W M&P both have choked on anything other than FMJ.

Hollow points are fine but they are fairly narrow "points"
 
Anthony said:
I hear you that it is a locked breech, Browning design, however this is used in just about every centerfire semi-auto made 9MM and above in caliber. The CZ shares no DIRECT lineage from the Hi Power (a Fabrique Nationale product, Browning is just a marketing company) other than the basic locked breech action. To say the CZ is similar in design would also be saying the Glock, HK USP, Sig, Springfield M&P, XD, etc are all similar in design to the Hi Power.

Stephen Camp, recently deceased unfortunately was one of the most knowledgeable Hi Power authorities around. Here are the similarities and differences.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Browning and CZ.htm
Click to expand...

A longer list of similarities than differences for the John Browning designed Hi-Power and the CZ 75B. I'm of the opinion that CZ took the Hi-Power and said let's make it SA/DA. However it evolved, it's a fine pistol. I have its big brother, the 97B. It fits my hand nicely and is reasonably accurate. Easy to field strip too.
 
Clark1961 said:
A longer list of similarities than differences for the John Browning designed Hi-Power and the CZ 75B. I'm of the opinion that CZ took the Hi-Power and said let's make it SA/DA. However it evolved, it's a fine pistol. I have its big brother, the 97B. It fits my hand nicely and is reasonably accurate. Easy to field strip too.
Click to expand...


Agreed, but most of those similarities would incude many other guns beyond the CZ. In addition the design change from Single Action Only to DA/SA is huge, and very significant.

I am a huge CZ and Hi Power fan. I would sell just about all others to keep those. Well maybe not my HK P7's. :)

The 97B is a tremendous .45 ACP and one of the most accurate out of the box. I really want one someday. The ergos of all the CZ's are superb.
 
John Baker said:
The one thing I have never fired is a 9 mm. What size of bullet is that compared to say a 22 & a 45? Or what would it be comparable to?

John
Click to expand...

It's about the diameter of a 38 give or take a gnats wing. And lies in between a 380 and a 38 special. I looked at the wiki entry on calibers of firearms a while back and found it very informative.
 
dmccormack said:
:dunno:

We only fed ball ammo through issue Berrettas (tens of thousandd of Govt issue rounds), and my Sig 229 and S&W M&P both have choked on anything other than FMJ.

Hollow points are fine but they are fairly narrow "points"
Click to expand...

Then there is something wrong with your pistols. The M9/92FS with GOOD MAGS will feed anything. The U.S. government mags given to our troops are TRASH, and being NATO they're only allowed to use FMJ. The P229, and M&P are both designed for hollow points. My P228 (similar to the P229, actually older) feeds EVERYTHING.
 
Anthony said:
The MKII, and MKIII (current Hi Power made since the early 90's) feeds everything reliably. The older T series and previous Hi Powers do have a humped feed ramp, that can be easily modified to feed everything.
Click to expand...

Yes - I ground the hump off mine. It improved things a bit but still not as reliable as my M39.
 
Go to gunstore and handle lots of guns.

Maybe you can find one with a range that rents different pistols.
 
Anthony said:
Then there is something wrong with your pistols. The M9/92FS with GOOD MAGS will feed anything. The U.S. government mags given to our troops are TRASH, and being NATO they're only allowed to use FMJ. The P229, and M&P are both designed for hollow points. My P228 (similar to the P229, actually older) feeds EVERYTHING.
Click to expand...

Never had a shotshell feed (new, Sig mag). Doesn't like reloads (lead build up on ramp)
 
For a first pistol to plink with The Ruger MKIII 22 is hard to beat.

http://www.ruger.com/products/markIII/index.html

I have a 9mm SW sigma. I would not buy another one. The trigger is Long and heavy. There are better guns out there for the ~$350 SW Sigma price. You can often find police trade ins in Glock or Sig that have been factory refurbished ~$400 bucks. The police trade ins are a good deal but they are usually 40 cal which is a bit more expensive to shoot than the 9mm.

For a cheap to buy and shoot, knock around just leave under the seat of the truck or in the tackle box all summer type of thing. The import army surplus 9x18 Mak's are not bad at all for the $. I have two favorites. First the CZ-82 Czech 9x18. and the PA-64. The PA-64 are a close copy of the James Bonds Walther PPK. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-64_(pistol)
These 9mm are NOT the same as the common 9mm Luger. You must buy 9mm MAK ammo.
http://makarov.com/
Here are a couple places that sell the Surplus guns.

http://www.jgsales.com/c-r-guns-c-290.html

http://www.aimsurplus.com/catalog.aspx?groupid=254&name=Curio+&+Relic+Firearms
Any gun you buy is only as good as you can shoot it. Practice Practice practice!!!! Good luck
 
I love Taurus revolvers. Let me repeat that for you, "Taurus revolvers." The only Taurus semi-auto I would ever consider is the model 92 or 99 (99 is a 92 with adjustable sights). These are full-size guns based on the Beretta M9 design. Never heard a complaint about them.
 
John Baker said:
OK, I've got a question that is probably kind of stupid, considering my background. I own a Colt officers ACP 45.

I've fired or owned everything from British Bren guns, 303, 306, M-14, British swamp and jungle carbines (303) Winchester lever action 30-30, snub nose in both 38 & 32, M1s in both rifle and carbine, recoilless rifles, along with it's 50 cal spotting rifle, 50 cal machine guns, and a bunch of others I can no longer remember. The one thing I have never fired is a 9 mm. What size of bullet is that compared to say a 22 & a 45? Or what would it be comparable to?

John
Click to expand...

same bullet diameter as a .38/.357. ball ammo is generally 115 grain, but there is also ammo out there in 124 and 147 grain bullets.
For comparison, 380acp shoots lighter bullets, generally the 80-100 grain weight range, and they are also a shorter case (less gunpowder) than a 9mm (technically, 380 is 9x18mm, and 9mm is 9x19mm but there are aslo bullet and case rim differences as well). .22s are usually 30-40 grain bullet weights (rimfire, that is). .45 (my preference) are usually 185-230 grain bullet weights.
 
Last edited:
Ken Ibold said:
Looking to maybe get a 9mm semi for target shooting. Something inexpensive, no need for carrying. Considering a S&W Sigma or Taurus 809. Any comments or sugggestions?
Click to expand...

Ken- either of the two you are considering will surely be sufficient. The best thing you can do is try to find a place you can shoot them before you buy. I know nothing about Florida, but when i was stationed in North Carolina, most of the gunshops i went to that had a range also had a selection of pistols to rent and shoot on their range. I also do not know your experiance with firearms, but a single action pistol has different characteristics than a double action, and striker fired pistols can also be another breed as well. The idea is to try a few and go with what you like.
After you buy you new pistol, it would behoove you to put at least 100 rounds of standard ball ammo through it before changing to different ammo types. The people behind the counter will probably tell you the same thing, as doing so helps wear-in the pistol.
9mms are lots of fun, and are generally pretty darn accurate; you're bound to have a smile in your face throughout your shooting sessions.
 
Gerhardt said:
Visit a handful of gun shops and hold all of the ones that interest you. Don't be embarrassed to assume a firing position.
Click to expand...

You've just hit on something dad taught me, and we both do... if you pick up a handgun and bring it to a firing position and it doesn't immediately line up sights and feel like you're under control of it, right from the start... hand it back and find another handgun to purchase.

You can tell in about two minutes if you want to mess around with any particular gun, or if it's going to be one of those guns that eats up a pile of time at the range "getting used to it".

Some handguns, you pick them up and they feel "right" from the start. You sight down them, and you can tell the sights work for you or have parallax issues with your glasses (if you have 'em), etc.

Only after that first simple test, do you bother seeing if you can fire one -- to see if other things work for you... action, etc.
 
Ken:

For target shooting, if you get a double action only pistol, you will never achieve the results you want. The triger pull to get a double action to cycle through the action is just too hard to get good accuracy. Some semi-autos have the double action only (we had a Taurus like that) which are probably good for self defense but crappy for really good accuracy.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top