8s on pylons

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Manoj

Filing Flight Plan
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I am undergoing training for my Commercial certificate and I was discussing various commercial maneuvers with my CFI today. While we agreed and could 'figure out' uses for maneuvers like steep spirals, chandelles, lazy 8s we could not think of practical applications for 8s on pylons. To be frank we could not think of many practical applications of lazy 8s but agreed that it is good training since both pitch and bank are changing in lazy 8s.

So the question to the knowledgable folks on this forum - what is the point of the 8s on pylons maneuver?
 
Maintaining a fixed relationship to an object on the ground for filming or gunnery purposes.
 
LDJones said:
Maintaining a fixed relationship to an object on the ground for filming or gunnery purposes.
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SAR. You have located the raft in the Bering Sea, but you are flying a 132,000 pound wheeled aircraft. You wish to maintain visual contact...
 
It was originally for gunships to maintain a fixed point on the target. For Commercial training, it's another ground reference maneuver to work on division of attention, planning, and orientation, which is especially important in the traffic pattern. In the real world, I did half of it - a "circle on pylon" if you will - when I took a friend up to take photos of his property in a Warrior so the wing wouldn't be in the way.
 
It's BS. But they have to make a standard so the public feels safe. Whatever, it does teach aircraft control. You're going for a commercial and I suppose it does help prove you can fly professionally. With that in mind I'm going to tell you the most important phrase you'll ever learn.

Ready? Here it is:

Cooperate and graduate.


Nike has a similar phrase...just do it. About the same really.


PS I can't believe someone tried to sell you on SAR. Like they don't train SAR....really? Prety dumb when you say it out loud.
 
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BTW...gunnery is 10X more stupid a reason. They really really train that. The military doesn't tap commercial pilots to fire on ground targets in their combat aircraft. Super dumb when you say THAT out loud!!!

omg, I've heard it all now...
 
NWADC9 said:
It was originally for gunships to maintain a fixed point on the target. For Commercial training, it's another ground reference maneuver to work on division of attention, planning, and orientation, which is especially important in the traffic pattern. In the real world, I did half of it - a "circle on pylon" if you will - when I took a friend up to take photos of his property in a Warrior so the wing wouldn't be in the way.
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This was a solid response to the OP. I agree with it all.
 
bbchien said:
SAR. You have located the raft in the Bering Sea, but you are flying a 132,000 pound wheeled aircraft. You wish to maintain visual contact...
Click to expand...

LDJones said:
Maintaining a fixed relationship to an object on the ground for filming or gunnery purposes.
Click to expand...

Both those are examples of 'turns around a point'. How does that elevate to 8s on pylons with a precise pivotal altitude based on GS - with the pylons being a mile or so apart ... I am sure the enemy gunners wont be that obliging :).

All jokes in good spirit!
 
I can understand the usefullness of turns around a point, I see no practical application of 8s on pylons.
 
With turns around a point you will keep the same altitude but change your bank angle to adjust for winds. At times that could mask your pivot point from your vision. With 8's on you will keep the same bank angle and adjust altitude and airspeed to maintain your pivotal altitude thereby allowing yourself to keep your pivot point in view at all times. It's practical applications in a professional setting are all dependant on the job. The commercial manuevers and syllabus were explained to me that you are learning to fly the plane rather than drive it. You should be able to have finesse in your control movements and be able to anticipate the reactions more than say a private pilot might. Lazy 8's exemplify that, along with a few of the other manuevers.
 
It teaches Finess, having two 8's instead of one, just makes the distractions and workload higher.
 
Once, as a traffic pilot, the reporter and I were dispatched to monitor two traffic accidents, about a mile and a half apart. Seemed like a good time to pull out my eights on pylons skills.

In real life, not a lot of practical applications for the "eights". As others mentioned, turns over a single pylon are good for aerial photography.
 
Captain said:
BTW...gunnery is 10X more stupid a reason. They really really train that. The military doesn't tap commercial pilots to fire on ground targets in their combat aircraft. Super dumb when you say THAT out loud!!!

omg, I've heard it all now...
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Take your meds. He asked about the practical application of a particular maneuver. Examples were given.
 
Manoj said:
Both those are examples of 'turns around a point'. How does that elevate to 8s on pylons with a precise pivotal altitude based on GS - with the pylons being a mile or so apart ... I am sure the enemy gunners wont be that obliging :).

All jokes in good spirit!
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Accomplishing the same maneuver from two different perspectives.
 
frfly172 said:
I can understand the usefullness of turns around a point, I see no practical application of 8s on pylons.
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Bruce had a good example. When performing a turn around a point, your course over the ground draws a circle around the fixed object. If there is wind, the object will be in front of your wing at some points during the turn, behind it at others.

When performing the 8's on pylons maneuver, you adjust your flight path so that the object on the ground is always off of your wingtip. If you are trying to orbit something while keeping it in sight, this type of turn is what you want to fly. The reason we do this maneuver as a figure 8 around two points, is just to add in some extra difficulty and require more maneuvering and planning from the pilot. It is an exercise that requires the pilot to demonstrate handling proficiency and situational awareness.
 
frfly172 said:
I can understand the usefullness of turns around a point, I see no practical application of 8s on pylons.
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Nope, nada. They had to come up with something non-aerobatic to force some stick-and-rudder standards above and beyond PPL stuff. Not much you can do without doing aerobatics. You might as well draw boxes and circles on the horizon with the nose for all those comm maneuvers are worth.

ja_user said:
It teaches Finess,
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Finesse at doing one particular random maneuver. It doesn't teach general piloting finesse. You can have a high degree of finesse having never done anything outside PPL maneuvers, or you can be a hamfisted ATP. All types exist. If a pilot has finesse, it's because they made an effort on their own. Doing random maneuvers doesn't necessarily teach finesse in general. The comm maneuvers are extremely tame compared to basic aerobatic maneuvers. But learning basic aerobatic maneuvers doesn't teach finesse with general flying either.
 
this is interesting. im startnig commercial training hopefully in a few months after i finish building time to about 220 hours. im at 175 right now. ive been told thathe commercial tet was all about how you handle and finesse the plane and stay ahead of the plane more so than if you were a private pilot
 
You are descending into E. Bumtruck airport when you realize your altimeter has gone T. U. (no radar, VFR) To determine pattern altitude set a speed that will give you a 1000' pivotal altitude, begin a co-ordinated turn, and when the terrain off your wingtip stops moving relative to the wingtip viola you are 1000' agl. Been there, used this...
 
jnbcfi said:
You are descending into E. Bumtruck airport when you realize your altimeter has gone T. U. (no radar, VFR) To determine pattern altitude set a speed that will give you a 1000' pivotal altitude, begin a co-ordinated turn, and when the terrain off your wingtip stops moving relative to the wingtip viola you are 1000' agl. Been there, used this...
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If my altimeter craps out I'm pretty sure I could eyeball 'close enough' without doing crazy maneuvering to figure something just as random. Wind changes it so you'd have to do the full figure 8 and then work out an average and EVEN THEN it would be 'eyeballin it'.

Sorry, that plan is shot full of holes and I would NOT recommend it for a lost altimeter procedure. Better to just set your normal sight picture and just fly the pattern.
 
Captain said:
If my altimeter craps out I'm pretty sure I could eyeball 'close enough' without doing crazy maneuvering to figure something just as random. Wind changes it so you'd have to do the full figure 8 and then work out an average and EVEN THEN it would be 'eyeballin it'.

Sorry, that plan is shot full of holes and I would NOT recommend it for a lost altimeter procedure. Better to just set your normal sight picture and just fly the pattern.
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Sorry, as well! I had no idea that a simple turn was "crazy maneuvering" I am ever so glad that your "eyeball" is more precise than mathematics.
 
No problem. Glad to help.
 
Manoj said:
we could not think of many practical applications of lazy 8s but agreed that it is good training since both pitch and bank are changing in lazy 8s.

So the question to the knowledgable folks on this forum - what is the point of the 8s on pylons maneuver?
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Your answer is in your statement above your question. Control of pitch, power, bank and yaw, are the main reasons for any of the training maneuvers. There is not meant to be a practical application for any of them. Chandelles are not to be able to climb out of a box canyon or any of the myths you hear for the "practical purpose" of the maneuver. All of the training/testing maneuvers are designed to train and test your control of the pitch/power/roll/yaw of the maneuver.

How you apply it is an infinite.
 
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