757 hard landing, KEWR

Cap'n Jack

Cap'n Jack

Final Approach
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Cap'n Jack
"The 757 was formerly operated by Continental before the two airlines merged under United’s name." Yes, yes...but did they file a flight plan?? What an odd detail for AVWeb to include.
 
What it told me is that it was one of the ex-Continental RR powered models, rather than an originally United PW powered one.

Jim_R said:
"The 757 was formerly operated by Continental before the two airlines merged under United’s name." Yes, yes...but did they file a flight plan?? What an odd detail for AVWeb to include.
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atbroome said:
What it told me is that it was one of the ex-Continental RR powered models, rather than an originally United PW powered one.
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Hm. Okay. Still not entirely sure how that's relevant...and if it were, why they didn't specify *that* detail instead of obscuring it. (Not every reader will be able to make that connection.)
 
What’s that gonna take to get fixed?
Wonder who was at controls for that landing??
 
I was on an A320 flight in to Danang on Vietnam Airlines when the pilot whacked it down so hard on landing it blew a couple wheels on the mains. I guess they kept the plane in service, because when I left to return to Ho Chi Minh City a few days later, it wasn't there.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I was on an A320 flight in to Danang on Vietnam Airlines when the pilot whacked it down so hard on landing it blew a couple wheels on the mains. I guess they kept the plane in service, because when I left to return to Ho Chi Minh City a few days later, it wasn't there.
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I once was on a Mad Dog 80 with AA that made a "landing" like that. I had a layover and later saw them replacing the wheels on one side of that plane.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I was on an A320 flight in to Danang on Vietnam Airlines when the pilot whacked it down so hard on landing it blew a couple wheels on the mains. I guess they kept the plane in service, because when I left to return to Ho Chi Minh City a few days later, it wasn't there.
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I remember years ago "landing" in Nuremburg, Germany from Frankfurt in a 727. LH's book had said that some of their pilots prefer a "firmer" touchdown to aid in control on the ground. Firmer? That pilot was a frustrated carrier pilot wannabe. That was about as firm a touchdown in a 727 as I ever experienced. Didn't pop any tires that I know of.
 
I guess we will see. If true, then all that sacrifice and one landing nixes the whole lifetime income equation down the toilet. Great gig, terrible career.

Similar thing happened to the envoy FO, admitedly the guy didn't have anywhere near as much invested in the career as a regional FO. All that student debt to get cut at the knees on your first jet job does sting no matter what. Good luck to the dude.
 
texasclouds said:
I imagine someone would take the pilot, not 100% blown.
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I agree with you. After a little time passes, I think most companies look at guy like this with the attitude, "Well, he'll probably never make that mistake again."

As long as he doesn't continue making mistakes, he should be ok.
 
Although, It may be delivering Russian munitions to the Sudan at night. Or bam bam runs up from Bogota.
 
Has anyone ever heard the saying....''screw up to move up''...??

I worked with a guy that put the landing gear through the wing of a Cherokee 6. Of course the small cheap company fired him. His next job a month later was right seat in a B-1900.
 
If this turns out to be an honest mistake (unlike the Captain’s actions leading to the SWA crash at LGA, for example), it wouldn’t surprise me if the FO gets to keep his job. United isn’t the regionals.
 
All else being equal probably he'll get some retraining, his instructors are definitely being talked with and he'll be back on the line. The majors invest too much money in training to kick his ass out on this. Depends upon a lot of things.
 
Keep in mind there were two pilots onboard. The instructor pilot is just as responsible as the student pilot. Probably more so.
 
I can't speak for how chief pilots and DOs think but I can tell you how most maintenance departments that I have been associated with operate. We always looked at expensive screwups as being expensive lessons. And if we just spent a bunch of money on an expensive lesson, we wanted some ROI. Why take someone who very well just learned something and hopefully became a more careful and thoughtful employee and send them down the road to another employer to benefit? Experience always showed me that employees who make one big error seldom repeat the error and also make fewer errors in general than other employees. I've seen mechanics who made a mistake that cost the company lots of money end up becoming not only huge assets as mechanics but also eventually leaders who were well respected by their peers.

Now if someone constantly makes errors especially of the expensive types you do have to let them go. But seldom is making a rash decision to fire someone for one mistake a good idea.
 
SkyDog58 said:
I can't speak for how chief pilots and DOs think but I can tell you how most maintenance departments that I have been associated with operate. We always looked at expensive screwups as being expensive lessons. And if we just spent a bunch of money on an expensive lesson, we wanted some ROI. Why take someone who very well just learned something and hopefully became a more careful and thoughtful employee and send them down the road to another employer to benefit? Experience always showed me that employees who make one big error seldom repeat the error and also make fewer errors in general than other employees. I've seen mechanics who made a mistake that cost the company lots of money end up becoming not only huge assets as mechanics but also eventually leaders who were well respected by their peers.

Now if someone constantly makes errors especially of the expensive types you do have to let them go. But seldom is making a rash decision to fire someone for one mistake a good idea.
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Yes. This...
 
hindsight2020 said:
I guess we will see. If true, then all that sacrifice and one landing nixes the whole lifetime income equation down the toilet. Great gig, terrible career.

Similar thing happened to the envoy FO, admitedly the guy didn't have anywhere near as much invested in the career as a regional FO. All that student debt to get cut at the knees on your first jet job does sting no matter what. Good luck to the dude.
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What’s the envoy FO you’re talking about?
 
kayoh190 said:
https://www.flyingmag.com/chicago-ord-tower-controller-prevents-midair-collision/

Supposedly the Envoy crew was fired, which if true, is total BS. I wonder if there's not more to the story.
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There really isn't much more to the story. ASAP report did jack for them. At any rate, read up on it APC. To add insult to injury, it appears he was a RTP guy and will have to give back the bonus money.

I have 99 criticisms of my employer, but I've seen people involved in fatality-involved ejections keep their wings, not even go to FEBs, as the IP on record where lack of checklist adherence was cited as contributory to the fatality no less. Different spanks for different ranks indeed. I don't know what AMR group was thinking.

The FO made a mistake (missed a heading/altitude) I've seen everybody make, myself included. He just did it close to the airport and became visible. Bad timing and luck. I wouldn't want to invest too much in a career with high volatility of outcome. I wish the dude good fortunes moving on. Most people don't get into commercial flying to top out at 80K flying crappy non-homesteading part 135/91k schedules in timbuktu for the rest of their adult lives as a consolation prize of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Most people faced with a forced plateau like that simply quit.
 
hindsight2020 said:
There really isn't much more to the story. ASAP report did jack for them. At any rate, read up on it APC. To add insult to injury, it appears he was a RTP guy and will have to give back the bonus money.

I have 99 criticisms of my employer, but I've seen people involved in fatality-involved ejections keep their wings, not even go to FEBs, as the IP on record where lack of checklist adherence was cited as contributory to the fatality no less. Different spanks for different ranks indeed. I don't know what AMR group was thinking.

The FO made a mistake (missed a heading/altitude) I've seen everybody make, myself included. He just did it close to the airport and became visible. Bad timing and luck. I wouldn't want to invest too much in a career with high volatility of outcome. I wish the dude good fortunes moving on. Most people don't get into commercial flying to top out at 80K flying crappy non-homesteading part 135/91k schedules in timbuktu for the rest of their adult lives as a consolation prize of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Most people faced with a forced plateau like that simply quit.
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You should know that the holdings company pretty much let the subsidiary managers run the company as they see fit.

I don’t work at envoy but have a close friend that’s been there several years and is a captain. His general opinion is that the relationship with envoy management is very hostile. Take that for what it’s worth... you will not be getting a bill
 
hindsight2020 said:
The FO made a mistake (missed a heading/altitude) I've seen everybody make, myself included. He just did it close to the airport and became visible. Bad timing and luck. I wouldn't want to invest too much in a career with high volatility of outcome.
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That's what I'm saying - the Envoy situation is not the norm, which is why I'm questioning exactly what went down. I don't see APC as a trustworthy source when it comes to gossip, especially on the regional boards where the signal to noise ratio rivals that of a platoon of 8th grade girls.

I've never worked for a regional so perhaps it is that hard core, but throughout my career I never felt my job was on the line for an honest mistake. If this United crew was doing 2000fpm and Ref+60 inside of 500', finally got fully configured as they were coming over the fence, all while the FO was bragging about banging the VP of Flight Ops' wife - then maybe he'd get fired. But if all this guy did is react improperly to a bounced landing - nah. :)
 
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