709s that aren't due to any violation or pilot deviation by the pilot...

UpInTheSky

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Apr 21, 2023
Messages
9
Display Name

Display name:
UpInTheSky
I'm curious if anyone has dealt with 709s that aren't due to any violation or pilot deviation by the pilot. If so, I'd love to get some insight on this -- maybe also some references as to which lawyer was involved and the outcome. It seems like the FAA is not very transparent at all, and there isn't a process that is clearly outlined and communicated to certificate holder.
 
This won't help with your axe grinding OP, which is obviously something specific and strange -- but we had one with a renter pilot who iced up his carb and chose to orbit the field and attempt to troubleshoot in the air instead of landing to sort it out. I don't believe he violated/deviated anything but common sense.

After he planted the thing in a nearby industrial park and flipped it, the feds summoned him for the 709 ride and a lighthearted discussion of decision-making. I understand that conversation went poorly enough that we didn't hear about it again and I don't know what the final outcome was. No lawyers were involved.

Cheeky bugger wanted to rent another of our planes the day after. I think the expletive he received still rings in his ears. Our insurance gave him a check for $75k to help stop his bloody nose, and that injustice still rings in MY ears. :D
 
This won't help with your axe grinding OP, which is obviously something specific and strange -- but we had one with a renter pilot who iced up his carb and chose to orbit the field and attempt to troubleshoot in the air instead of landing to sort it out. I don't believe he violated/deviated anything but common sense.

After he planted the thing in a nearby industrial park and flipped it, the feds summoned him for the 709 ride and a lighthearted discussion of decision-making. I understand that conversation went poorly enough that we didn't hear about it again and I don't know what the final outcome was. No lawyers were involved.

Cheeky bugger wanted to rent another of our planes the day after. I think the expletive he received still rings in his ears. Our insurance gave him a check for $75k to help stop his bloody nose, and that injustice still rings in MY ears. :D

Thanks for the reply.

What do you mean by “axe grinding”?
 
Good morning. Thanks for making time to reply.

I’ll make sure to share everything once I’m “done” or the FAA is done with me.

Without knowing the full story behind your OP, it's difficult to reply or provide the information you are looking for.
 
You aren't sharing why you have received special attention. If there's nothing to this, then you have no worries about explaining. If you're hiding it, it's because you know it's because of the pilot and you don't want to say. It comes across suspiciously like axe-grinding.
 
Without knowing the full story behind your OP, it's difficult to reply or provide the information you are looking for.
Can someone give any example of how it could happen? A 709 being needed when the pilot had no violations or deviations?
 
Can someone give any example of how it could happen? A 709 being needed when the pilot had no violations or deviations?

One example. Pilot goes to a training center for a new type rating, and while in training does very poorly, and fails the check ride after a couple of attempts.

Examiner notes the failures were due to lack of ability, and questions the competence of the airman holding his stated certificate (commercial, ATP).

The FAA can step in, if they desire, to re-evaluate the airman's competence at the rating level.
 
Can someone give any example of how it could happen? A 709 being needed when the pilot had no violations or deviations?

Pencil whipping DPE gets caught and everybody gets a 44709 trophy for the display case. The most current example from a few months ago:

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N_8900.647.pdf

Other historical examples:

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2013/september/12/dpe-retest

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N_8900.555.pdf

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N_8900.421.pdf

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Notice/N 8900.194.pdf
 
It looks to me like the statute does not require a violation to justify a reexamination or even a revocation.

§44709. Amendments, modifications, suspensions, and revocations of certificates
(a) Reinspection and Reexamination.—The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration may reinspect at any time a civil aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, design organization, production certificate holder, air navigation facility, or air agency, or reexamine an airman holding a certificate issued under section 44703 of this title.

(b) Actions of the Administrator.—The Administrator may issue an order amending, modifying, suspending, or revoking—

(1) any part of a certificate issued under this chapter if—

(A) the Administrator decides after conducting a reinspection, reexamination, or other investigation that safety in air commerce or air transportation and the public interest require that action; or

(B) the holder of the certificate has violated an aircraft noise or sonic boom standard or regulation prescribed under section 44715(a) of this title; and


(2) an airman certificate when the holder of the certificate is convicted of violating section 13(a) of the Fish and Wildlife Act of 1956 (16 U.S.C. 742j–1(a)).


(c) Advice to Certificate Holders and Opportunity To Answer.—Before acting under subsection (b) of this section, the Administrator shall advise the holder of the certificate of the charges or other reasons on which the Administrator relies for the proposed action. Except in an emergency, the Administrator shall provide the holder an opportunity to answer the charges and be heard why the certificate should not be amended, modified, suspended, or revoked....​

The statute goes on to discuss appeals and judicial review.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg...itleVII-partA-subpartiii-chap447-sec44709.htm
 
There are others here that are likely more experienced than I am with this, but every pilot needing a 709 ride I’ve dealt with as an instructor that has provided remedial training has had a letter stating what the problem area was. I’m curious what this one says.
 
I have worked with a few pilots in prep for a 709 rides. All of them didn't have anything to do with any violation or pilot deviation. Just an event that the FAA was required to investigate.
I have found most 709 rides mostly a non-event if the pilot is truly a capable and compliant pilot. Anti-Authority, Invulnerability, and Macho Attitudes, don't go over very well. It is the FAA's way of saying they checked the pilot out and he still meets the requirements to be a pilot. They would rather do that than most any other action to show they properly investigated the event.

If you can perform the maneuver's and tasks listed in the 709 letter, which come right out of the ACS, like any good pilot should be able to do with at most a little practice, then the 709 ride will be mostly a formality.

One of the pilots I worked with needed to complete a 709 task in a tailwheel airplane, She went out to do a few practice landings before flying with the inspector. When she taxied in to the meet the inspector, he was waiting for her. He told her he had observed the landings and they were done and handed her pilot certificate back to her. She never flew with him in a tailwheel airplane.


Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
One place I worked, we had a D.O. whom I would consider to be grossly incompetent. Management finally heard the words they needed to hear, and decided to fire him. Lawyers got involved, crap like that.

When our POI finally got wind of it, he told us that a possible way to address it would have been to contact him with some details, and he could require a 709 ride.
 


Which makes sense, to some degree. I mean, just that if the DPE is found to not have conducted check-rides to meet the ACS, then the competency of the pilot wasn't really tested.

DPE is fine in this case. No action taken against the DPE.
 
I have worked with a few pilots in prep for a 709 rides. All of them didn't have anything to do with any violation or pilot deviation. Just an event that the FAA was required to investigate.
I have found most 709 rides mostly a non-event if the pilot is truly a capable and compliant pilot. Anti-Authority, Invulnerability, and Macho Attitudes, don't go over very well. It is the FAA's way of saying they checked the pilot out and he still meets the requirements to be a pilot. They would rather do that than most any other action to show they properly investigated the event.

If you can perform the maneuver's and tasks listed in the 709 letter, which come right out of the ACS, like any good pilot should be able to do with at most a little practice, then the 709 ride will be mostly a formality.

One of the pilots I worked with needed to complete a 709 task in a tailwheel airplane, She went out to do a few practice landings before flying with the inspector. When she taxied in to the meet the inspector, he was waiting for her. He told her he had observed the landings and they were done and handed her pilot certificate back to her. She never flew with him in a tailwheel airplane.


Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

Thanks for taking time to reply. I really appreciate it.

In this came it is all of Instrument and all of Commercial -- oral and practical -- so not just a few maneuvers.

I feel pretty good about my "preparedness" but I've had a few people tell me that a 709 is a permanent record and that it will not help any future things -- only complicate things.

The big concern is that, it seems like there's more going on (that I'm likely not being told) and I don't get the sense that it would be a fair ... re-examination at all.

And also, I'd have to shell out even more money to prepare and rental.
 
Can someone give any example of how it could happen? A 709 being needed when the pilot had no violations or deviations?
7009 rides are about competence. Sometimes associated with a deviation sometimes not.

Inadvertent gear up landing is a common one. I guess one can argue that it's a violation of aircraft limitations but I have not seen an inadvertent gear up treated that way. Crosswind landing accidents have been handled that way too. And not al 709s involve flying. I've seen CFIs 709'd for a poor preflight inspection. I recall one involving a mechanic where the 709 was the only thing the ASI could come up with since nothing was violated.
 
The big concern is that, it seems like there's more going on (that I'm likely not being told) and I don't get the sense that it would be a fair ... re-examination at all.
While you may not be told everything that’s “going on”, what makes you think it won’t be a fair re-examination?
 
Thanks for taking time to reply. I really appreciate it.

In this came it is all of Instrument and all of Commercial -- oral and practical -- so not just a few maneuvers.

I feel pretty good about my "preparedness" but I've had a few people tell me that a 709 is a permanent record and that it will not help any future things -- only complicate things.

The big concern is that, it seems like there's more going on (that I'm likely not being told) and I don't get the sense that it would be a fair ... re-examination at all.

And also, I'd have to shell out even more money to prepare and rental.
Have you discussed this with an aviation attorney rather than "a few people"? So you get some reliable information? Do you know , for example, that if you are worried about bias from you local FSDO, you can request a different one for the re-exam? That successful 709 rides are treated as "No Action" under FAA enforcement policy guidelines? That successful 709s are expunged after a certain period (I forget whether 30 or 90 days)? That 709s are not reportable in PRIA?
 
Last edited:
Dang. All kinds of things can get ya a 709. They could probably cruise around here and other forums and give one for bad atittude. :yikes:
 
You don't have to be "anti-authority" to be rationally suspicious of FAA actions; there are a lot of good people there, doing good work, like anywhere. And enough jerk/bureaucrats to justify caution. I bet most 709s and most certificate actions are clearly warranted. Most. But some are capricious and arbitrary. Some. Enough so that I'd not sail too far into that water without at least paying for advice from an aviation lawyer - like the same day the letter arrives. Odds are it's not a big deal, and/or some cooperative action on your part will clear it up. . . Maybe.
 
I've had a few people tell me that a 709 is a permanent record and that it will not help any future things -- only complicate things.

That ship has already sailed, what ever triggered the 709 ride, the FAA is pretty much obligated to investigate and document the results. I can't think of anything they officially do that isn't a permanent record.
All you can do now is make the best of it.
(EDIT: reading some of the other posts, It might be entirely possible that a successful 709 ride doesn't generate any readily available records, but can't imagine that the records won't be stored somewhere to cover the FAA's butt if the question ever came up)

Without knowing the cause of the 709 ride, It is hard to speculate how it might go. Even then it would still just be speculations. It seems pretty rare to me that they are out to get you, unless they think you are exhibiting hazardous attitudes.

My opinion is it doesn't hurt to consult an attorney, But I would be really sure that you and the attorney agree that getting the attorney involved in anything more than giving you advice is the best course of action.
Again just my non-professional opinion is that having the attorney deal with the FAA for you sends some some negative signals to the FAA and may require them to follow different procedures.
As an example in my non-aviation business dealings, if you bring an attorney into our conversation, I am required to stop talking/working with you, and you and your attorney will only work with our company attorney.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Dang. All kinds of things can get ya a 709. They could probably cruise around here and other forums and give one for bad atittude. :yikes:
There are some limits on the FAA authority to request one, but really not much. There must be a "reasonable basis" for the FAA to question competence. Something related has happened to lead the FAA to question competence. That's a matter of both law and practicality. But it's a really low standard although the scope of the exam has to be related. That CFI poor preflight I mentioned? The engine quit on takeoff. The 709 consisted of the CFI "teaching" an ASI a preflight inspection.

I don't know if this is still true but I heard at an enforcement seminar years ago that there has never been a 709 request reversed (although I once somehow managed to reverse a 709 request through negotiations). That may be in part due to a lack of cases when the options are (a) take a checkride or (b) be subject to certificate or rating revocation for refusing. Pretty big downside for a ride which is targeted. The scope of the exam is the only one I know where an FAA request was, not overturned, but modified, and that seems to be where most 709 negotiations take place. In one of those, a CFI's competence about logbook entries and endorsements was being questioned and the FAA wanted to give the guy a full CFI checkride, On appeal, the NTSB limited to the issues which raised the request.
 
My opinion is it doesn't hurt to consult an attorney, But I would be really sure that you and the attorney agree that getting the attorney involved in anything more than giving you advice is the best course of action.
Again just my non-professional opinion is that having the attorney deal with the FAA for you sends some some negative signals to the FAA and may require them to follow different procedures.
As an example in my non-aviation business dealings, if you bring an attorney into our conversation, I am required to stop talking/working with you, and you and your attorney will only work with our company attorney.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
Yes, it's always a good ide for the attorney one consults to be competent.
 
Please cite some examples of this.
I refer you to NTSB records for your own research efforts. Bigger picture, I offer a quote from IFR Magazine, regarding the PBR from 2019:

". . . Given the former lax provisions, the quality of evidence used to justify enforcement actions was not very rigorous. The FAA could prove its case via hearsay without a direct witness, plus they didn’t have to prove the reliability of a given document. Now, even though hearsay evidence is still permitted, the party must justify its admissibility under the Federal Rules of Evidence."

There is more (link below) but I think it may be generally accepted the NTSB is close to being a rubber stamp on airman certificate actions. And pre PBRs the FAA was certainly capricious and arbitrary in the opacity of investigations, notifications to pilots, unresponsive to pilot requests for specific information.

https://www.ifr-magazine.com/system/pilots-bill-of-rights/
 
I refer you to NTSB records for your own research efforts. Bigger picture, I offer a quote from IFR Magazine, regarding the PBR from 2019:

". . . Given the former lax provisions, the quality of evidence used to justify enforcement actions was not very rigorous. The FAA could prove its case via hearsay without a direct witness, plus they didn’t have to prove the reliability of a given document. Now, even though hearsay evidence is still permitted, the party must justify its admissibility under the Federal Rules of Evidence."

There is more (link below) but I think it may be generally accepted the NTSB is close to being a rubber stamp on airman certificate actions. And pre PBRs the FAA was certainly capricious and arbitrary in the opacity of investigations, notifications to pilots, unresponsive to pilot requests for specific information.

https://www.ifr-magazine.com/system/pilots-bill-of-rights/


OK, so no examples. Got it. :rolleyes:

And from the bottom of your referenced article Fred Simonds, CFII is not a lawyer, nor even a jailhouse lawyer. This article is informational. Seek professional advice as your circumstances dictate.
 
Last edited:
I had the opportunity to due a ride way back when after an extremely hard landing. The thought never entered my mind to challenge the decision. After an hour with the flight schools chief pilot I was ready to go.
 
I actually have no experience with what I would describe as a capricious 709. The fed critters I have been exposed to are not exactly signing up for capricious extra work, or flying around in our hobbyist deathtraps with randos for fun and profit.

It's being on the side of the coin where you need a fed to lift a finger and help you with something -- that's when things get capricious and annoyingly difficult. :D
 
Have you discussed this with an aviation attorney rather than "a few people"? So you get some reliable information? Do you know , for example, that if you are worried about bias from you local FSDO, you can request a different one for the re-exam? That successful 709 rides are treated as "No Action" under FAA enforcement policy guidelines? That successful 709s are expunged after a certain period (I forget whether 30 or 90 days)? That 709s are not reportable in PRIA?

Oh, I didn't know that. That's good news.

And yes, I have a lawyer.

I just wish the FAA would return his calls, so we could figure stuff out. But they don't want to talk to him, apparently.
 
There are others here that are likely more experienced than I am with this, but every pilot needing a 709 ride I’ve dealt with as an instructor that has provided remedial training has had a letter stating what the problem area was. I’m curious what this one says.

Either the 141 school didn't follow the TCO or they did and there's another issue. Seems to be a school induced issue -- but without the TCO I'm not really able to figure out what's going on.

Nobody has said or indicated that I didn't meet the ACS standards. Even the FAA on a call to me told me that this isn't my fault. So, I guess I'll just have to wait for things to happen so I can do stuff about it.
 
I just wish the FAA would return his calls, so we could figure stuff out. But they don't want to talk to him, apparently.
FSDOs can be different on that score. Some ASIs just hide. Others are fine talking to a pilot's counsel. @brcase mentioned this and I've had both experiences. In one, I specifically asked the ASI whether they need to involve FAA counsel. They checked and the answer was for the ASI to deal with me directly. Maybe that inquiry is part of your delay? Dunno.

One of the very first things I consider when advising someone is whether the FAA needs to know I'm involved. Can I remain in the background as an advisor or do I need to get directly involved? That's almost as much about the client as how the FAA is handling it and the nature of the triggering event. It's not an easy decision and so far, I've had the luck to get the decision right.
 
Nobody has said or indicated that I didn't meet the ACS standards. Even the FAA on a call to me told me that this isn't my fault. So, I guess I'll just have to wait for things to happen so I can do stuff about
That has happened when an Examiner has been investigated. Examiner accused of something like pencil-whipping checkrides. The applicants they pass sometimes have to do a re-examination although they have done nothing other than use the "bad" examiner.
 
That has happened when an Examiner has been investigated. Examiner accused of something like pencil-whipping checkrides. The applicants they pass sometimes have to do a re-examination although they have done nothing other than use the "bad" examiner.

I've heard of those incidents, but that's not the case here. The DPE wasn't found to have done anything wrong.
 
Sorry for this mess. Sounds like your old school did something wrong. At this point, you can get mad at them, but that won't solve your problem. Practice up, take the ride, no ding on your record. Focus on this as the priority. ONLY after this is taken care of IMHO do you then focus on recovering your out of pocket costs from the school.
 
I have helped two pilots with 709 rides. One was a woman who was flying a photographer in a J-3 when she entered a stall/spin at low altitude and caused minor injuries and totaled the airplane. She was required to demonstrate stall recoveries and spin awareness, especially because it was a commercial flight. We did dozens of stalls and she passed the exam and was reinstated.

The other one was a guy who had an engine failure and tried to force a 182 onto a short grass runway with too much speed. He ended up in a cornfield. The FAA wanted him to demonstrate emergency landings with no power, so we practiced. But he then told me that he discovered they had notified him beyond the allowed time frame, and that they could not require him to do the 709 ride.

A friend had to do a 709 ride after a ground loop damaged his Cessna 180. But the FSDO did not have any inspector qualified to fly the 180. So, my boss gave the inspector tailwheel instruction before the 709 ride, and of course, my friend then passed.
 
Back
Top