6Y9 Improvements

[ScottM]

FYI AT&T lists moderate to poor coverage for the whole city.

I am trying to get their and other carriers antenna database.

There really is not an easy solution short of putting a tower up in Sidnaw. The cost of a cellular base station is about $100,000 for the radio equipment, an other $400,000 for antennas, the tower, emergency power, and the spans. Then there is the real estate itself and it runs upwards of another $500,000 when you consider the zoning, NIMBY, permits, materials, and construction.

For you boys and girls that is keeping count that is close to a million dollars and is the average price of a cellsite in the US. In order to justify that the company has to make back the cash in 2 to 3 years. Does anyone think there is going to be that much wireless usage to justify it?

Even if a repeater is used that will be a fair amount of money. Repeaters are cheaper but they are a PIA to provision and optimize into the network. If there is enough reason to have one the carriers will do it.

But even then we need power, back power, antennas, zoning, and spans to control the device. $$$$

 

[wsuffa]

FYI AT&T lists moderate to poor coverage for the whole city.

I am trying to get their and other carriers antenna database.

There really is not an easy solution short of putting a tower up in Sidnaw. The cost of a cellular base station is about $100,000 for the radio equipment, an other $400,000 for antennas, the tower, emergency power, and the spans. Then there is the real estate itself and it runs upwards of another $500,000 when you consider the zoning, NIMBY, permits, materials, and construction.

For you boys and girls that is keeping count that is close to a million dollars and is the average price of a cellsite in the US. In order to justify that the company has to make back the cash in 2 to 3 years. Does anyone think there is going to be that much wireless usage to justify it?

Even if a repeater is used that will be a fair amount of money. Repeaters are cheaper but they are a PIA to provision and optimize into the network. If there is enough reason to have one the carriers will do it.

But even then we need power, back power, antennas, zoning, and spans to control the device. $$$$

As we long for the days of RSAs and carrier subsidies....

 

[ScottM]

As we long for the days of RSAs and carrier subsidies....

Not really. Things are actually better, just more complicated. There almost is competition. As we move towards more robust VoIP you will see even more competition. Wireless wide area Internet is just now stating to deploy.

 

[Ted]

We own a 496. However, the plane we were flying has no power source, and our batteries were dead by the time we left Sunday. On top of that, it's not a "legal" briefing, and isn't going to save your bacon in case of a TFR bust. Our next stop after leaving 6Y9 was Adams County, WI.

Understood, but the 496 gives you plenty to go on until you get airborn and can call flight service for your full legal briefing. If the batteries are dead then obviously that presents a problem, but a number of other people had theirs, too. I guess I'm just thinking that with all of the technology and capabilities that we bring with us, it seems that we should be able to come up with solutions to a lot of these simple problems.

You can't see why it needs improving

'cause you weren't there​

'nuff said.

Michael, I was there last year. I was happy with it the way it was last year, and it's only improved since!

 

[ScottM]

Michael, I was there last year. I was happy with it the way it was last year, and it's only improved since!

Are saying that your non-attendance resulted in improvements?








Actually you were missed.

What gets me is that there were so many people there this past year that I did not get to say hi to everyone.

 

[mikea]

I have yet to make it to 6Y9 and so have no say but allow me to wonder out loud.
...

If cell phone coverage is close (I'm not sure how far the school is) what about a real antenna on a pole with a repeater (Scott?).

All that is hundreds of $.
Joe

If there's any internet access in town a WiFi beam antenna could get it to the airport.

With a POTS phone line alone and a dail-up account you can set up an on demand wired/WiFi link over dial up. That would be slow but better than nothing.

That could still be like $100 a month for phone and account. $1200 a year. The problem is you gotta build for that one peak demand.

I saw we can live being off the grid for 2-3 days.

 

[Missa]

I don't want to be much more connected up there. I like being forced off the grid!

I could see a payphone only as a small old fasion way to check in with loved ones and get the extended forcast from WX breif.

 

[ron22]

This was my first time to 6Y9 and I really cant say it NEEDS any improvements. It is what is it, a nice small grass strip.
You have to be carefull what you ask for if it gets lights or to much trafic the locals may start to dislike the airport. To much noise, to much noise at night. Right now the locals seem to like the airport lets try and keep it that way.

or asking Tommy or the Trails End folks if pilots can come use their phone toll free weather (800-WX-BRIEF), along with a map in the shack to the phone locations.

This would most likely be the easy and cheapest way to get a phone working.

I had a 496 in the plane and I still flew out to Land O Lakes for fuel and to call to get the magic words "No TFR's"

 

[steingar]

Michael, I was there last year. I was happy with it the way it was last year, and it's only improved since!

I think there should be a rule that those who fail to show up cannot publicly contradict those who do. So there.

 

[Ted]

Are saying that your non-attendance resulted in improvements?

That's probably true! News media got out that the dischevled guy in the Ford hat wasn't going to be there, so it was safe for the rest of society.

Actually you were missed.

What gets me is that there were so many people there this past year that I did not get to say hi to everyone.

I certainly missed being there. I'm glad to hear that the event has grown, though!

I think there should be a rule that those who fail to show up cannot publicly contradict those who do. So there.

Ahh, but you failed to show up last year, so you should therefore be unable to contradict me.

 

[AdamZ]

I thinik "Improvement" may not be the best choice of words I think what Grant and or Brad meant was what do we do to be able to get more folks to use the field.

 

[gprellwitz]

I thinik "Improvement" may not be the best choice of words I think what Grant and or Brad meant was what do we do to be able to get more folks to use the field.

Yeah, the question was what can be done to make the field more attractive to pilots to make them want to stop there, both during the fly-in and the rest of the year. The questions are certainly related, but you're right, "improvement" isn't exactly the right word. That being said, having some way to phone out would be an improvement. Don't know that it would make it more likely for me to stop, though.

 

[ScottM]

I thinik "Improvement" may not be the best choice of words I think what Grant and or Brad meant was what do we do to be able to get more folks to use the field.

Get US Air out of the air carrier business?

 

[ron22]

Since the talk is how to get more poeple there.


We just all need to talk Rachel into this idea

If I could talk Rachel into buying Mom's and I could open a 'Guided Bear Hunt' and '4-Wheeler Excursion' business, traffic MIGHT pick up a bit, but until that Lotto ticket comes through, it will remain as it is - darn near perfect.

 

[gprellwitz]

Since the talk is how to get more poeple there.


We just all need to talk Rachel into this idea

Leslie's been thinking of doing something similar. Then she comes to her senses!

 

[steingar]

Leslie's been thinking of doing something similar. Then she comes to her senses!

She should, she's quite the cook.

 

[el con]

OK Guy's /Gal's
1.I'll check with the phone company and see if they can make sure the pay phone is working, probably credit card use only because no one wants the hassle of handling real money any more.
2. Maps of where to go for phones,bar,gas stations are easily done.
3.I don't want a cell tower anywhere near the airport, I'm having enough trouble getting rid of that darn electric pole at the end of 28.
4.We had a guy stop by after everyone left on Mon. in a 210, he may want to build a hanger, that may get electric to the field and maybe weather.
5. I just got the quote to move the guard tower to the field and accepted it. Maybe a antennae or booster on top of that.
6. If people needed to charge there GPS we can do that at the house,(Grant we did that for you last year)
7. Maybe Chris buys the Sidnaw Minimart and Rachel buys Moms Kitchen
( avgas and food problem both solved)
8. I think this will stay an un lit runway, it might be difficult to stay out of the trees at both ends, (and the pole)
9. I might be able to set up one spot for a campfire, but it will not be where it was last weekend, they have burn bans often ,violaters will pay dearly, and whoa unto you if you start a forest fire or burnup my plane
10. And last but not least we need to find donations or funding for these things nice as they all are they need to not create a negative revenue stream. Right now there are no tie down fees, landing fees, mandatory fuel purchase, camping fees,taxes,user fees,security hassles,etc.
Since it is privately held there is no income or support from the township, county, or state, that has it's good and bad sides.
We all have a wish list for 6Y9,mine is probably the longest, but for right now most of you are there for 2-3 day's a year, the field is only open from May 15th to Nov.1st, so if you need the amenities a quick hop to KSAW or KLNL or KIMT will get you all you need. Then continue your journey from there.
Think about it , if you want a real adventure sometime, just use your 6 pack or basic gauges sometime to get to 6Y9, kinda give you an idea of what it was like in 1933 when the field was opened. Slow down , follow the roads, look at the pictures Barb took it's what the U.P. is all about.

Longer is good (Liz and Michael) but bigger is not always better.

 

[gprellwitz]

Thanks, Brad!

 

[steingar]

OK Guy's /Gal's
1.I'll check with the phone company and see if they can make sure the pay phone is working, probably credit card use only because no one wants the hassle of handling real money any more...Longer is good (Liz and Michael) but bigger is not always better.

Waitaminnit! I never complained in the slightest about the field length, and have never even intimated it should be longer, lit, paved, or improved in any way short of a bloody phone. I have freely acknowledged my own bush pilot deficiencies, which were not due to the field length, but more my own lack of experience in dealing with shorter, obstructed runways. I made a major exception to land my aircraft on grass, which I will only ever do on two occasions.

Keep harping on me and you won't get your nice present . Plan sounds good though.

 

[el con]

Hey I forgot to say I do really appreciate all the feed back and idea's
No offense taken, I guess as some have said in one way or another ,if we make it just like most of the other airports, well ,it will be "just another airport"
Right now it's kind of unique and simple, maybe that's a good thing.

In earlier post's I think one of the biggest things that would be nice,but is difficult, is transportation and the insurance, liability, upkeep that goes with it.
The simplest thing would be use the bikes, but if you need a car ,buy a beater and leave it up there, put Pl /Pd on it and "voila" you got wheels.Always there, always yours.
If I put a courtesy car there and two people showed, somebody would be disapointed, so then what two,then three cars???
Just an Idea.

 

[steingar]

Phooey on the cars, bikes are good enough. Where you going to go anyway?

 

[el con]

Waitaminnit! I never complained in the slightest about the field length, and have never even intimated it should be longer, lit, paved, or improved in any way short of a bloody phone. I have freely acknowledged my own bush pilot deficiencies, which were not due to the field length, but more my own lack of experience in dealing with shorter, obstructed runways. I made a major exception to land my aircraft on grass, which I will only ever do on two occasions.

Keep harping on me and you won't get your nice present . Plan sounds good though.

Now ,Now no offense intended, I have made it my mission to make 6Y9 the safest I possibly can. I'm just saying both of you were closer to the trees on take-off,or go around than I feel good about.
When Liz left on Mon. she was fine,in fact great ,but when she came in on Fri. I held my breath on the first go around, I heard that close to all the runway was used on the actual landing that I did not witness.
Now for your 140, as powerful as it may seem to you, as we discussed before, it is not a bush plane. We had another 140 in earlier this year, he got out but only after an aborted take off.
It was warm the other day , you had some camping gear in there ,I'm not sure how much fuel, but your takeoff gave me the willys. It is not you as the pilot, it is the under powered bird for our field and the conditions at the time. Have you ever notice when a manufacturer designs an airplane the new succeeding model usually has a more powerful engine ,they hardly ever go the other way,down in hp. You say you don't like grass stains on your wheel pants, you and I both would hate to see pine bough stains on them ,or worse, your prop.
You have a very, very nice Cherokee, it looks much nicer than mine,but I got the power, and on shorter grass runways mine will shine a little brighter.And by the way thank you very much for coming,seriously.

 

[el con]

Phooey on the cars, bikes are good enough. Where you going to go anyway?

Well some people would like to sight see,some may go to lakes, or stores,haul a boat to go fishing or canoeing/kayaking maybe.
Maybe go to the nearest Lycoming dealer to get a 180 hp.engine for their airplane. Gotcha there

 

[steingar]

Hey, my pleasure. Seriously, we were at gross, and it was a hot day. Under gross I made it out of there with zero trouble. My guess is that at gross I could have made it out of there, but it would have been seriously suspenseful. My takeoff didn't give me the willies. I'm certain it could have been done better, but I took off, put the nose down to gain speed, and then flew out of there with no trouble. Believe me, I've had takeoffs that gave me the willies, but that wasn't one of them. Of course your Cherokee will do it better, there is no substitute for extra power. But the Free Bird was more than up to the task, it was no strain. Load your airplane up to gross and see how it does some time.

I take guff for myself, but the Free Bird takes none.

 

[el con]

Hey, my pleasure. Seriously, we were at gross, and it was a hot day. Under gross I made it out of there with zero trouble. My guess is that at gross I could have made it out of there, but it would have been seriously suspenseful. My takeoff didn't give me the willies. I'm certain it could have been done better, but I took off, put the nose down to gain speed, and then flew out of there with no trouble. Believe me, I've had takeoffs that gave me the willies, but that wasn't one of them. Of course your Cherokee will do it better, there is no substitute for extra power. But the Free Bird was more than up to the task, it was no strain. Load your airplane up to gross and see how it does some time.

I take guff for myself, but the Free Bird takes none.

I dunno, you were awful close to those trees, as the airport owner ,I hate seeing propwash blowing the leaves around
Free bird would be just about perfect ------ with some free hp. about 30-40 of them
Whataminit, if you flew out of there at gross ,how much over were you when Missa was in the plane(please no offense Missa) She got out after your two attemptsand you were at gross Tsk Tsk not good. Free bird could be a deadbird. Do your calculations +15% for grass,80 degrees,at gross, over 40 ft trees, freebird is a fine you are

 

[steingar]

I dunno, you were awful close to those trees, as the airport owner ,I hate seeing propwash blowing the leaves around
Free bird would be just about perfect ------ with some free hp. about 30-40 of them
Whataminit, if you flew out of there at gross ,how much over were you when Missa was in the plane(please no offense Missa) She got out after your two attemptsand you were at gross Tsk Tsk not good. Free bird could be a deadbird. Do your calculations +15% for grass,80 degrees,at gross, over 40 ft trees, freebird is a fine you are

I could have been quite a bit higher, honest. I didn't even do a Vx takeoff. We were right at gross with Missa aboard. Once she deplaned I was her weight smilewinkgrin under gross. Takeoff roll with a 50ft obstacle is 1700 feet, add 15% for grass and you have 1955ft. Add another 10% for the heat and you have 2150 ft. Add 20% for the heat and you have 2350ft. I should have had plenty of room. Moreover, those numbers are for a stock Cherokee 140, and don't take into account the hp bump or the airframe modifications.

The fact that I didn't think about all this nor think about how much the airplane weighed at the time, point to my own deficiencies as a pilot. It is a rare occasion that I have to think of these things, and obviously didn't do a very good job of it. The fact that I genuinely don't know how much room to add for the temperature further points this out in my mind. I imagine it's in the POH somewhere, which I don't have handy. But I remain convinced that the ship would have made it fully loaded that day had her pilot been wiser to the ways of grass strips. One doesn't always know one's own deficiencies, but now that it has been pointed out it will be corrected in short order.

By the way, thanks are in order also for this discussion. Helps me focus on this issue and the performance limitations of the aircraft.

 

[Missa]

OK Guy's /Gal's
1.I'll check with the phone company and see if they can make sure the pay phone is working, probably credit card use only because no one wants the hassle of handling real money any more.

And then it will be the only place in Sidnaw that accepts credit cards...

 

[steingar]

And then it will be the only place in Sidnaw that accepts credit cards...

 

[gprellwitz]

We were right at gross with Missa aboard. Once she deplaned I was her weight smilewinkgrin under gross.

And I think this is what Brad's questioning. Unless you flew into 6Y9 as a glider, not burning any fuel, you shouldn't have been at gross when taking off, even with Missa aboard.

 

[JoeSelch]

I have no issue with the field's length or obstacles - I regularly land with less. The only issue is my proficiency with my plane - my second attempt should have been a no-holds-barred short-field that would have had me much slower before the hump on 28. And, frankly, I'm not comfortable with that in this plane - at this moment. (Soon to change.)

Brad, I'm glad you were there to see the take-off - required nothing fancy at all. (The acceleration in ground effect was only for fun. )

As for the rest of this thread...
The only "improvements" I would recommend would be a map/list of local amenities. This is not a totally remote strip in a desolate area; need be, I'm sure there are people in town who would be glad to help a pilot in need.

 

[steingar]

And I think this is what Brad's questioning. Unless you flew into 6Y9 as a glider, not burning any fuel, you shouldn't have been at gross when taking off, even with Missa aboard.

According to my calculations, with Missa aboard we were right about at gross, plus or minus a bit depending on the camping gear, which I didn't weigh. Between Missa, myself, and the gas we had an easy 150lbs to spare, which I doubt was taken up by the camping gear. Book values suggest that we could have gotten out of there with room to spare. I had no trouble at all with her deplaned, despite Brad's misgivings. Even with that level of fuel I had enough to make my fuel stop with an hour plus reserves. I could have managed fuel better to be certain, but it wouldn't have made that big a difference (the 8 gallons too much I carried comes in at 50lbs). Thus I feel my difficulties came entirely from my unfamiliarity.

 

[AdamZ]

Brad, may I suggest the following:

If you want to undertake a change or addition to the field pick one project what ever it may be, price it out and we can see what can be raised for that project. While we may give freely to 6Y9er because we know its importance I think folks will be more likely to give if we say hey were looking to raise $1500 to build a control tower or bring water to the field or what ever.

 

[AdamZ]

but for right now most of you are there for 2-3 day's a year, the field is only open from May 15th to Nov.1st, so if you need the amenities a quick hop to KSAW or KLNL or KIMT will get you all you need. Then continue your journey from there.
Think about it , if you want a real adventure sometime, just use your 6 pack or basic gauges sometime to get to 6Y9, kinda give you an idea of what it was like in 1933 when the field was opened. Slow down , follow the roads, look at the pictures Barb took it's what the U.P. is all about.

Longer is good (Liz and Michael) but bigger is not always better.

Ya know what that says it all right there!

BTW here is my suggestion to make 6Y9er perfect. DONT' CHANGE A THING!

 

[CJones]

BTW here is my suggestion to make 6Y9er perfect. DONT' CHANGE A THING!

^^^ What he said!

 

[jesse]

^^^ What he said!

I agree. Perhaps you should plant a few trees and shorten the runway -- keeps the riff-raff out...

 

[el con]

I agree. Perhaps you should plant a few trees and shorten the runway -- keeps the riff-raff out...

Yeah,Jesse.
But then I'd have to drive up to cut the field.

All these post's are great discussion, it helps me figure out what do or maybe not to do.
I already am under way with another 100ft. of length to the east and 300ft to the west.
If I roll back the clock a couple of years and put the brush,trees,swamp, holes,etc. back in the picture, we would not have the 100% safety record we do now.
Everybody out there did fine or very close to it. The added length maybe will make me feel better. We've had 100% safety record since we acquired the field and we want to keep it that way.
Other things will come with time and as necessary.

 

[Ted]

I'd agree that I like having the extra field length, and it definitely helps the safety aspects of it. We might be able to convince Andrew to bring the Matrix next year if the field is long enough.

Plus, from my perspective having more runway is great since it makes it more comfortable to load the Aztec up and bring it out. I'll shut up now, seeing as I canceled this year.

 

[bbchien]

IIRC there is an actual phone booth outside of what used to be Mom's. I cannot speak for the condition of the phone contained therein.

That phone doesn't work. It's disconnected. BT, Tried That.

At every grass trip fly-in there's somebody that pushes the limits. Last year (08) at Gaston's it was Dr. Bill CatsnDogs. I think I experienced angina watching him and I had offered to take his two pax up to Baxter just before.

The honor now belongs to Steingar. Although my book has similar margins to the Cherokee 140 at gross, I have learned over the years to MAXIMIZE the margins. That means go substantially undergross, in addition to margins.

Haven't died yet...

 

[Missa]

I wouldn't call what Steingar did as pushing the limits. He tested out the limits. We knew we were close, we discussed what we were doing and we had our abort point picked out. When we passed the abort point, we aborted the take-off. He had no trouble getting out without me on board. He now has a better idea of the limits of the plane and the pilot. We are all lucky to that there were plently of friends around so that when testing the limits we are not pressured to push the limits of plane and pilot to get home.

Thanks again Clark!

Missa

 

[tonycondon]

Brad -

I wasn't there this year so i can't tell if my opinion counts, but I think a good addition to the field would be some permanent tie downs. We all bring stakes and whatnot but not everyone flies like us.

And I think that you should try to find a way to make sure all the people who have cabins in the area know there is an airport there. Perhaps some of them have a 182 sitting at home and they just don't realize that they could land at Sidnaw, tie down, and then make their way to camp for the week.