6000' DA, 800' Dirt Strip (Clear approaches), $50K: What plane do you buy?

MarkH

MarkH

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MarkH
How's this for a hypothetical?

You have a house at 6000' DA on the hottest days, and an 800' straight, level "driveway" running beside your house. What plane do you buy to park in your garage?
 
Probably the rattiest, oldest super cub you can find (due to the price limitation). Then it’s no problem.

Other planes that would do it in that price range: older Kitfoxes and some of the Rans-type experimentals, maybe a Stinson with the a bigger Franklin. I’m probably missing a few options but most everything else either won’t do it or would cost a lot more.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
Gyrocopter?
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I Thought about that, but this video suggests that using a gyro for short field work may place it in a risky part of it's flight envelope.


(Note: I've never even seen a gyrocopter in person, so I have no idea what I am talking about)
 
Maule M-5. Used to see them under $50k, especially the -180C. Nowadays, in these ...ahem....uncertain, unprecedented, .....times, it might take some careful longterm shopping to hit that price point.
 
MarkH said:
How's this for a hypothetical?

You have a house at 6000' DA on the hottest days, and an 800' straight, level "driveway" running beside your house. What plane do you buy to park in your garage?
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PeterNSteinmetz said:
Gyrocopter?
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A McCulloch J-2 Gyroplane wouldn't do it at all. At 6000' DA (4000' elevation, 75°F) the takeoff charts show over 900' ground run and 2500' to clear 50' obstacle. POH prohibits takeoff above 4000' pressure altitude.

Takeoff procedure at sea level is to rotate at 47 mph IAS, accelerate in ground effect to 62 mph, then clumb at Vy 70 mph. Manual adds, "Above approximately 2000 feet altitude acceleration to speeds as high as 65 mph on the ground may result in improved takeoff and climb performance." :confused::rolleyes:
 
AA5Bman said:
Probably the rattiest, oldest super cub you can find (due to the price limitation). Then it’s no problem.

Other planes that would do it in that price range: older Kitfoxes and some of the Rans-type experimentals, maybe a Stinson with the a bigger Franklin. I’m probably missing a few options but most everything else either won’t do it or would cost a lot more.
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I sometimes fly a 150hp Stinson at 3000' DA and I don't think it would work for this scenario even with the 165hp Franklin. Unless you are talking about a 220 Franklin then maybe you could do it if you stayed light.
 
V-22 should do the trick.

But as mentioned earlier, first plane that popped into my head was a Maule.
 
Pilawt said:
A McCulloch J-2 Gyroplane wouldn't do it at all. At 6000' DA (4000' elevation, 75°F) the takeoff charts show over 900' ground run and 2500' to clear 50' obstacle. POH prohibits takeoff above 4000' pressure altitude.

Takeoff procedure at sea level is to rotate at 47 mph IAS, accelerate in ground effect to 62 mph, then clumb at Vy 70 mph. Manual adds, "Above approximately 2000 feet altitude acceleration to speeds as high as 65 mph on the ground may result in improved takeoff and climb performance." :confused::rolleyes:
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a J2 is an old design that had mediocre performance when it was designed. The Air and Space 18a (similar vintage) has jump take off capabilities. Some of the modern gyros also have much better performance.

Magni claims 230ft on one of their tandem designs. Don’t know what that translates to at 6000 feet.
 
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Kansas Flyer said:
I sometimes fly a 150hp Stinson at 3000' DA and I don't think it would work for this scenario even with the 165hp Franklin. Unless you are talking about a 220 Franklin then maybe you could do it if you stayed light.
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Yeah - the big Franklin I'm referring to is the 220. I'm pretty sure it'd be fine; I've seen some really impressive things from that setup.

The thing that makes this challenge a challenge is the price point. There are plenty of models that will do 800' dirt at 6000' DA, but not so many that will do it under $50k.
 
MarkH said:
How's this for a hypothetical?

You have a house at 6000' DA on the hottest days, and an 800' straight, level "driveway" running beside your house. What plane do you buy to park in your garage?
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Do you have access to a chainsaw and a bulldozer? Going from 800’ to 1200’ would open up a lot of options.
 
My R/STOL 182 would do that just fine as long as you didn’t overload it.
 
MarkH said:
How's this for a hypothetical?

You have a house at 6000' DA on the hottest days, and an 800' straight, level "driveway" running beside your house. What plane do you buy to park in your garage?
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I have friend with Cessna 175 and an STC’d O-470, for sale, that will do all that you want, with money left over.
 
The Sonex advertises a 500ft landing and a 400ft takeoff distance (sea level, std temp).

How realistic are those numbers?
 
What about a 172 with a 180 hp engine ?
 
WDD said:
Does the STOL drop your cruise speed ?
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By the book, no. By the groundspeed in real life, maybe. A few knots. Like 5 at the most.

The airplane may also just be out of rig. Hard to say. It likes to roll right very very slowly in cruise.

The leading edge is slightly cuffed and the two stall fences stick up but are edge on, so not much adding drag when in cruise.

The real drag/lift add is drooping the ailerons with the flaps. They match the flaps to a point and then start retracting back up a bit to keep from losing aileron authority at the low end.

Have heard many say adding VGs will get a 182 nearly as close to our R/STOL performance these days without messing with flight controls, since you can’t buy an R/STOL kit anymore.
 
Bellanca Super Viking, or a Navion , but you have to look to get your price.

Sorry. Just realized that the Viking is likely out
 
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Can a Navion really handle strips that short?

One of the arguments I have always had (in my head) against building an RV-10 (other than the whole "I can't even afford the engine" issue) was that if MOSAIC creates an owner maintenance category I would rather have a Navion.

But I always assumed that Navions were "airport planes", and they would need at least 2500 ft of hard surface runway to safely operate.

How close is the Viking to being able to land on such a short strip?
 
MarkH said:
Can a Navion really handle strips that short?

One of the arguments I have always had (in my head) against building an RV-10 (other than the whole "I can't even afford the engine" issue) was that if MOSAIC creates an owner maintenance category I would rather have a Navion.

But I always assumed that Navions were "airport planes", and they would need at least 2500 ft of hard surface runway to safely operate.
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Navions are excellent short field aircraft. Not "routinely operate out of an 800' strip a/6,000 DA" short, but 800' would be doable if you were on your game at a substantially lower DA.
 
The 260 hp Navion lists takeoff roll at 400 feet and landing at 468. There are Navions with 300 HP engines out there. I think it would be worth a little investigation and research if you like them.
 
MarkH said:
The Sonex advertises a 500ft landing and a 400ft takeoff distance (sea level, std temp). How realistic are those numbers?
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From my experience ... close but no cigar!

But again ... what do I know? :confused:
 
Daleandee said:
From my experience ... close but no cigar!

But again ... what do I know? :confused:
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With a touchdown at stall speed and standing on the brakes, I bet you could stop it in 500'. With perfect technique, I bet you could get it off the ground in 400'. But the question is when you're at 6,000' DA and your takeoff and landing distances are increased by 20% or more, are you good enough to land on a 800' strip and depart from the same strip safely every time? I'm not that good, particularly with the consistency it would require to routinely get an airplane in and out of a strip that is only 25% (at 6,000' DA) longer than my "optimum" numbers.
 
kyleb said:
With a touchdown at stall speed and standing on the brakes, I bet you could stop it in 500'. With perfect technique, I bet you could get it off the ground in 400'.
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A great deal of that possibility with an experimental Sonex would depend on the build weight and the installed engine (80-120 HP). I've owned two different Sonex models and flew a few others. I don't see it happening ... at least not at my skill level! ;)

I could get close with the 120 HP but the 80 HP VW ... nah! BTW ... aren't those numbers supposed to to be given for flight testing at max gross weight?
 
Daleandee said:
I could get close with the 120 HP but the 80 HP VW ... nah! BTW ... aren't those numbers supposed to to be given for flight testing at max gross weight?
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Those numbers are supposed to be max gross, with the 80hp VW. The 120hp Jab claims 250ft takeoff, 500ft landing.
 
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