5000 Pilots suspected of hiding health issues

squincher said:
Am I reading the article correctly that the VA disclosed personal medical information to the FAA?
Click to expand...

no, they disclosed who gets disability payments & percentage, which is not HIPPA protected. In fact, it is public information, like DD-214s & pay information. What is new is the FAA using NOSQL to interface with the VA’S database. The offense the FAA is investigating is the fact that they lied on the medical form.
 
rhkennerly said:
The upshot now is that the FAA is going to have to publicly nail some hides to the wall.
Click to expand...
Why do you think it’ll be “public”, as in, by name?

And if someone intentionally lies about a medical history that resulted in them getting disability benefits for life, what would be the proper response?
 
Like it is a secret the FAA cross checks FAA, VA and SSA disability data bases? The 4800 are too stupid to hold a pilot certificate.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Ha, someone wrote that sleep apnea "wasn't a danger to flying".
Click to expand...

If it were, then the FAA wouldn’t be issuing so many SIs for it. Ain’t like planes are falling out of the sky because pilots have sleep apnea. I have several friends flying with an SI for sleep apnea. The problem is, a lot of vets just simply don’t want to jump through the hoops to get the SI.

You can bet a lot of these vets didn't claim it (and other things) on their annual military flight physicals either. You just don’t suddenly get SA or depression on your VA physical during out processing but yet your military physical is clean. They’re all coached to know where to claim it (VA) and where not to claim it (military phys/MedExpress).
 
Velocity173 said:
If it were, then the FAA wouldn’t be issuing so many SIs for it. Ain’t like planes are falling out of the sky because pilots have sleep apnea. I have several friends flying with an SI for sleep apnea. The problem is, a lot of vets just simply don’t want to jump through the hoops to get the SI.

You can bet a lot of these vets didn't claim it (and other things) on their annual military flight physicals either. You just don’t suddenly get SA or depression on your VA physical during out processing but yet your military physical is clean. They’re all coached to know where to claim it (VA) and where not to claim it (military phys/MedExpress).
Click to expand...
The SI's are for sleep apnea under control, obviously.
 
Velocity173 said:
If it were, then the FAA wouldn’t be issuing so many SIs for it. Ain’t like planes are falling out of the sky because pilots have sleep apnea. I have several friends flying with an SI for sleep apnea. The problem is, a lot of vets just simply don’t want to jump through the hoops to get the SI.

You can bet a lot of these vets didn't claim it (and other things) on their annual military flight physicals either. You just don’t suddenly get SA or depression on your VA physical during out processing but yet your military physical is clean. They’re all coached to know where to claim it (VA) and where not to claim it (military phys/MedExpress).
Click to expand...

With sleep apnea, VA requires an actual instrumented sleep study to confirm the condition. I never had a sleep issue on active duty, did not make a claim for it, and yet the VA sent me for one as part of my initial C&P.

I guess I’m the unicorn.

caccef65fd568486dd834862a58c952f.jpg
 
Maybe Texas will pass a law allowing you to sue a veteran for $10,000 plus legal fees if you turn them in for lying to the FAA on their medical.
 
www.avweb.com

FAA Revokes Certificates Of 60 Pilots Getting VA Benefits - AVweb

The FAA says it’s revoked the pilot certificates of 60 pilots as part of a project by the Department of Veterans Affairs to cross-reference its list of those receiving benefits with the medical records of active pilots. According to a Washington Post report, there are a total of 4,800 pilots...
www.avweb.com www.avweb.com

600 ATPs.
 
I hope they take this opportunity to analyze this unique data. Compare the flying records / safety records of these pilots to ATP's in general. That should help calibrate how much of a predictor a medical condition is to pilot performance.
 
WDD said:
I hope they take this opportunity to analyze this unique data. Compare the flying records / safety records of these pilots to ATP's in general. That should help calibrate how much of a predictor a medical condition is to pilot performance.
Click to expand...
The analysis must also include determining the validity of the disability status. There are two issues in play here. One is medical fitness for flight, the other is fraud.

Nauga,
and the big picture
 
TCABM said:
With sleep apnea, VA requires an actual instrumented sleep study to confirm the condition. I never had a sleep issue on active duty, did not make a claim for it, and yet the VA sent me for one as part of my initial C&P.

I guess I’m the unicorn.

caccef65fd568486dd834862a58c952f.jpg
Click to expand...
That’s odd that they’d send you to a sleep study. Then again, it’s the VA and I’ve heard from guys on that VA physical they push them to claim stuff they didn’t have.

I should say that I did see guys trying to document disabilities in their medical records but it was like in the last year when it didn’t matter. All of a sudden dudes are about to retire and they volunteer for the sleep study. I knew one guy trying to get the SA rating and took sleeping pills right before it to help him sleep. Well the doc told him he didn’t have SA but had Narcolepsy and wanted to ground him. So he’s like whoa doc, this is my livelihood here, you can’t ground me. And really that’s the mentality. They want disabilities that award the % but they don’t want the ones that are permanent grounding conditions. Having your cake and eating too.
 
Velocity173 said:
…I should say that I did see guys trying to document disabilities in their medical records...
Click to expand...
I had a full-out malingering JTAC that tried playing the system to maintain controller pay, but not actually be cleared to control. Talking with the flight surgeon, we just let the guy back himself into an MEB which turned into a med sep.

His claim was uncontrollable headaches triggered by fluorescent light.
 
dbahn said:
Yikes! Unbelievable that of roughly 600,000 pilots in the U.S under one percent (and as little as 0.5% that are still flying) are hiding health issues from a ruthless FAA system that is trying to weed them out and grounding them for months or years while they try to do it.

Was does WaPo suggest is a good solution? Get get more ruthless??
Click to expand...
If I understand the article correctly, the data was gathered in regard to pilots with VA records, not the entire pilot population of the U.S., so dividing the results by the latter population underestimates the extent of the problem.
 
TCABM said:
I had a full-out malingering JTAC that tried playing the system to maintain controller pay, but not actually be cleared to control. Talking with the flight surgeon, we just let the guy back himself into an MEB which turned into a med sep.

His claim was uncontrollable headaches triggered by fluorescent light.
Click to expand...
Jeez, sounds like a pilot I had in my company. I was the SP so I had the unfortunate responsibility of ensuring the 14 guys assigned to me were trained and maintained currency. Had a guy who’d been flying almost as long as me. At the time I had around 3,500 hrs and he had 500 hrs. Spent his time failing checkrides and getting grounded for the last 10 years. I tried to get his ACIP stopped and got chewed out by a female flight surgeon who said it wasn’t my business. Found out right after I retired he had an MEB and boarded out. Also found out the dude was grounded but yet played organized rugby in his spare time. That’s another thing. A lot of times there’s no accountability when it comes to special duty / ACIP. People slip through the cracks.
 
Palmpilot said:
Is non-mainstream media any better? Browsing YouTube suggests that it's not.
Click to expand...
I suppose not. But there's some 'appeal to authority' fallacy I think between the two. People know what they're getting with YouTube, see Dan Gryder, but they're epxecting a higher caliber with something like WaPo or NYT, for example. My big issue with any platform is the clickbait or sensationalist nature of it. "5000 pilots" sound a lot scarier than "less than 1%" .. it's intentionally misleading.
 
squincher said:
As I understand it, VA benefits hinge on whether or not you are returned the same as they found you, not your ability to work.
Click to expand...
That is the basic premise. You were assumed to be completely healthy when you passed your entrance physical and now you've had some wear and tear related to the military along the way.

The big problem as it pertains to follow on careers like aviation is that the people who are there to 'help' the veterans do not understand the implications of some conditions. Their stated goal is to get the veteran the most compensation for their service. They don't know what conditions are disqualifying or not.

Whenever a service member (officer or enlisted) leaves active duty, they are mandated to attend a transition training course. Covers things like using GI Bill benefits, resume and job application prep and during the process you get visited by the DAV (Disabled American Veterans - Non-profit folks who advocate for vets) who go over the VA process and how to file your claim.

The claim involves taking your complete medical record to the DAV rep and they review its entirety looking for any possible condition that could result in compensation. They'll flag stuff like a knee injury 15 years ago or Medical gave you vitamin-M (Motrin) for back pain back in 2015 so they flag those for the VA to investigate. The VA then determines whether or not the claim warrants compensation. The DAV bombards the system with every possible thing wrong with you to achieve the highest disability rating for the veteran. That is their goal.

But, if YOU, the member, aren't careful (or are someone trying to milk the system) then you can get flagged for stuff that could preclude you from flying. When the DAV submitted my claim, I found they had flagged stuff I never knew I had. In one case, they put down that I had been treated for some kind of chest pain. I went back and couldn't even find anything remotely related in my record, so I have no idea what they based that on. When I had my appointment at the VA, I made sure the Doc noted that it was not a legitimate claim and only addressed the issues that I felt were legit.

The kicker is that in order to find that out and head it off at the pass, I personally had to look up the codes that the DAV had put on my claim. I did that because I was thinking FAA medical complications, but how many others are that diligent? I'm sure the DAV rep thought they were 'helping' me.

Others may disagree, but from my own experience, I think the VA does a decent job of determining whether or not the conditions are legitimate for the most part, but where I think it gets sticky is mental health stuff like PTSD. DAV rep sees that a pilot flew combat missions and flags it for PTSD. Pilot seeking to max out their claim says all the right things for the VA to validate the claim and they get paid.....but then when they realize that PTSD is disqualifying for that lucrative airline career.......well then the whole integrity test comes into question on the MedXpress form....

Funny side note on Disability Claims: My AME specializes in Aviation Medicals and evaluating VA disability claims. Has a 2.5 out of 5 star reviews on various internet review sites and that is because 50% of the reviews are 5 stars and the other 50% are 1 star. When you read the reviews, it makes a little sense - the pilots all give her 5 stars. The haters are all people bitching that she didn't support their disability claim!
 
Last edited:
Checkout_my_Six said:
So where is the safety risk in all this? Are planes falling outta the sky?
Click to expand...
I personally think it is less about the safety risk than about integrity of airline pilots who are trying to double-dip and being dishonest about it.

I have no data to back it up but I suspect that many of those PTSD cases are trumped up and not people with legitimate mental health issues.

And to be clear, I'm not saying that PTSD is not real. Just that like ADHD, it might be a little over-diagnosed.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I personally think it is less about the safety risk than about integrity of airline pilots who are trying to double-dip and being dishonest about it.

I have no data to back it up but I suspect that many of those PTSD cases are trumped up and not people with legitimate mental health issues.

And to be clear, I'm not saying that PTSD is not real. Just that like ADHD, it might be a little over-diagnosed.
Click to expand...
Ok....then that's a VA problem....not an FAA problem. The FAA shouldn't be driving this unless there is a safety risk to the flying public. I don't want one tax dollar wasted on this unless there is a safety risk. The gummint wastes so much making the paperwork right.....and it has zero impact to improving safety.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Ok....then that's a VA problem....not an FAA problem. The FAA shouldn't be driving this unless there is a safety risk to the flying public.
Click to expand...
It's possible that the VA is driving it. Coast Guard has started doing the same kind of review of merchant mariner medicals.

I can see it now: VA and FAA are a bar. VA is bitching about the growing $$$ amount of claims. FAA says 'hey we might be able to help'

And then they invite Uncle Sam's Confused Group in and it's a party!

I'm surprised DOT hasn't started digging into Truckers disability records. Only a matter of time.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Ok....then that's a VA problem....not an FAA problem. The FAA shouldn't be driving this unless there is a safety risk to the flying public.
Click to expand...

The FAA’s issue is whether an airman fully disclosed everything required by law on their medical application. Applicants swear they told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth prior to submitting their application.

b0e7fb6084db469bc863ac6144ea0402.jpg


Applicants are also provided notice that failing to do so is a violation of the US Code punishably by five years in prison or $250K fine.

dc217cee9718f84fc1a09fdfc23393dd.jpg


Like others, I disclosed, it was a nothingburger, and I sleep soundly at night. But if an airman lied to the FAA and the FAA caught that lie, does the FAA do nothing? It appears there’s two groups the FAA is interested in; those who didn’t disclosing and, of those who did not, those that had/have a disqualifying condition as diagnosed by the VA.
 
And how does that make aviation safer?

It doesn't....and it's a stupid use of my tax dollars.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That is the basic premise. You were assumed to be completely healthy when you passed your entrance physical and now you've had some wear and tear related to the military along the way.

The big problem as it pertains to follow on careers like aviation is that the people who are there to 'help' the veterans do not understand the implications of some conditions. Their stated goal is to get the veteran the most compensation for their service. They don't know what conditions are disqualifying or not.

Whenever a service member (officer or enlisted) leaves active duty, they are mandated to attend a transition training course. Covers things like using GI Bill benefits, resume and job application prep and during the process you get visited by the DAV (Disabled American Veterans - Non-profit folks who advocate for vets) who go over the VA process and how to file your claim.

The claim involves taking your complete medical record to the DAV rep and they review its entirety looking for any possible condition that could result in compensation. They'll flag stuff like a knee injury 15 years ago or Medical gave you vitamin-M (Motrin) for back pain back in 2015 so they flag those for the VA to investigate. The VA then determines whether or not the claim warrants compensation. The DAV bombards the system with every possible thing wrong with you to achieve the highest disability rating for the veteran. That is their goal.

But, if YOU, the member, aren't careful (or are someone trying to milk the system) then you can get flagged for stuff that could preclude you from flying. When the DAV submitted my claim, I found they had flagged stuff I never knew I had. In one case, they put down that I had been treated for some kind of chest pain. I went back and couldn't even find anything remotely related in my record, so I have no idea what they based that on. When I had my appointment at the VA, I made sure the Doc noted that it was not a legitimate claim and only addressed the issues that I felt were legit.

The kicker is that in order to find that out and head it off at the pass, I personally had to look up the codes that the DAV had put on my claim. I did that because I was thinking FAA medical complications, but how many others are that diligent? I'm sure the DAV rep thought they were 'helping' me.

Others may disagree, but from my own experience, I think the VA does a decent job of determining whether or not the conditions are legitimate for the most part, but where I think it gets sticky is mental health stuff like PTSD. DAV rep sees that a pilot flew combat missions and flags it for PTSD. Pilot seeking to max out their claim says all the right things for the VA to validate the claim and they get paid.....but then when they realize that PTSD is disqualifying for that lucrative airline career.......well then the whole integrity test comes into question on the MedXpress form....

Funny side note on Disability Claims: My AME specializes in Aviation Medicals and evaluating VA disability claims. Has a 2.5 out of 5 star reviews on various internet review sites and that is because 50% of the reviews are 5 stars and the other 50% are 1 star. When you read the reviews, it makes a little sense - the pilots all give her 5 stars. The haters are all people bitching that she didn't support their disability claim!
Click to expand...

Quite a change from my day, and it wasn't THAT long ago. The only people I was ever aware of getting a VA rating were nearly crippled and chaptered out for medical. No one solicited us about disability at out processing, either.
 
Agent Orange hasn’t killed me yet. Guess I better get a claim in before it does.
 
Piperonca said:
Agent Orange hasn’t killed me yet. Guess I better get a claim in before it does.
Click to expand...
I’m kinda conflicted about the burn pit issue. I’ve read that no clear evidence links the burn pits to cancer but sure seems like a lot of ailments being reported. I breathed that crap in for over a year in Iraq. We had it at Afghanistan as well but not nearly as bad as Iraq. Maybe 1/4 mile from the trailers.
 
Velocity173 said:
I’m kinda conflicted about the burn pit issue. I’ve read that no clear evidence links the burn pits to cancer but sure seems like a lot of ailments being reported. I breathed that crap in for over a year in Iraq. We had it at Afghanistan as well but not nearly as bad as Iraq. Maybe 1/4 mile from the trailers.
Click to expand...
From what I understand with Vietnam vets, the exposure is presumptive. You get some kind of benefit, regardless. I can understand a little bit of that logic. For those of us that made daily trips to the field, including spray missions, and landing in multiple LZs exposure was a given. Of course that wasn’t as bad as loading malathion in my father’s J3 sprayer back in high school. No mask, no problem.

Still haven’t filed a claim but will soon. For hearing aids.
 
squincher said:
… No one solicited us about disability at out processing, either.
Click to expand...
You can thank Congress for that. They mandated it in the VOW Act of 2011; shortly thereafter the VA’s Benefits Delivery at Discharge was mandated as well. At 180 days before separation, military members start the VA process (if they so desire) and VA gets e-health records transmitted with the goal being a decision on the first day post-military service.
 
Once they did the 50 % or higher rating for VA benefits and passed this law in 2004, things just got out of hand. You could have someone who didn’t work the system and only is 30 % disabled and someone who worked the system at 60 % disabled. The difference between the two is like night and day.

militarydisabilitymadeeasy.com

Concurrent Retirement and Disability Pay (CRDP) • Military Disability Made Easy • #1 in Veterans Disability

Concurrent Retirement and Disability Pay (CRDP) is a benefit that allows veterans who qualify to receive benefit money from both the DoD and the VA (known as
militarydisabilitymadeeasy.com militarydisabilitymadeeasy.com
 
Velocity173 said:
Once they did the 50 % or higher rating for VA benefits and passed this law in 2004, things just got out of hand. You could have someone who didn’t work the system and only is 30 % disabled and someone who worked the system at 60 % disabled. The difference between the two is like night and day.

militarydisabilitymadeeasy.com

Concurrent Retirement and Disability Pay (CRDP) • Military Disability Made Easy • #1 in Veterans Disability

Concurrent Retirement and Disability Pay (CRDP) is a benefit that allows veterans who qualify to receive benefit money from both the DoD and the VA (known as
militarydisabilitymadeeasy.com militarydisabilitymadeeasy.com
Click to expand...

Indeed. For the active duty retirees, going over 50% makes the VA payment non-offsetable from your active retirement, so there's an even bigger incentive to malign up to the 51% point if you're legit under 50% but can't swing 100%. It's a disgusting dynamic.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Indeed. For the active duty retirees, going over 50% makes the VA payment non-offsetable from your active retirement, so there's an even bigger incentive to malign up to the 51% point if you're legit under 50% but can't swing 100%. It's a disgusting dynamic.
Click to expand...

We had a guy who used to work at my base in EMS who had 100 %. Always thought it ironic that he’s getting $3K tax free a month, got a handicap license plate, parked in a handicapped parking spot, 50 ft from the helicopter he flys for work! He’s currently trying to get back on with our company and I’m trying everything in my power to prevent that…probably to no avail.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Ok....then that's a VA problem....not an FAA problem. The FAA shouldn't be driving this unless there is a safety risk to the flying public. I don't want one tax dollar wasted on this unless there is a safety risk. The gummint wastes so much making the paperwork right.....and it has zero impact to improving safety.
Click to expand...
www.nbcnews.com

Sutherland Springs victims say they've reached $144.5M settlement with DOJ

The "tentative agreement," which is not fully settled yet, would end years of legal battle for more than 80 survivors and victims' relatives.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com

The shooter had mental health issues diagnosed in the Air Force and those didn’t stop him from getting a gun. OUR TAX DOLLARS settled this suit for $144.5 million.

I think the FAA needs to assess the reasons for those 5,000 people being considered disabled by the VA and see if their disabilities impact flying safety. That’s what this is about. And in the context of this settlement.
 
Back
Top