$20K-$25K Sports Sedan

[rachelk.tailwinds]

I want to be able to work on it myself, and those who own a lot of those cars usually don't.

Take it from someone who just did a clutch replacement on an e39 M5: you absolutely do not want to work on them. You absolutely do not want to pay someone to do it, either.

 

[SoonerAviator]

You are right, like I said, I don't know anybody who buys Caddys, Pontiacs, and Taurus (other than company-owned salesman cars).

I truly think it may be regional. As the people I know who are car enthusiasts will tend to drive BMW's, MBZ's, Audi's, and Teslas.

Even the thought of a "sporty" Taurus, Pontiac, or Caddy is kinda funny. (Save the original Pontiac GTO's....)

The car enthusiasts you know must be very wealthy and can afford a luxury sports car, they aren't buying used. Driving inside the DC beltway, everyone seems to own a BMW/Merc/Audi. It's a different world from where I'm from. People have them, but you may only see a late-model AMG or M-series once a week. The Tesla is an $70K+ vehicle after rebates for most, that's not really in the same league as buying a used vehicle for $20-25K.

Those who drive a lot of the high-end sports luxury cars are driving them because they are the best performance for the dollar-spent, they drive them because it is more exclusive. Otherwise, everyone would drive a C7 'Vette or new CTS-V and be done with it.

 

[tlrussell]

I have an s550 and I've owned a crown vic. I promise you I can get anywhere faster in the crown vic plus there is the hilarity of people diving off the road in front of you into businesses that are obviously closed, lol. Truly is amazing how people get out of your way.

 

[genna]

I bolded the part I'm not sure I'm willing to accept. That's my apprehension about BMW/Merc/Audi is that they are premium vehicles which like to have premium upkeep. There are M3/M5s, and 6-series that have eaten guys' lunch because of high-strung engines and complex electrical systems. I want to be able to work on it myself, and those who own a lot of those cars usually don't.

The main problem with the CTS-V is that you can't pick up a 2009 or later model for less than $29K used with 60K+ on them. It's a lot to pay for an 8-yr old car with 1/3 of its useful life gone! As with anything though, you have to pay to play.

Bolded part. This is a really big depends. If you talk about BMW M car, or MB AMG, or even Audi RS, then yes, you are correct.

On the other hand, Audi A/S(4,5,6) cars are fairly tame. They are, at the heart, re-engineered VWs with nicer stuff. Parts are middle of the road expensive and just about anyone can work on them. I used to own an 2.7TT S4(though not very long) and didn't find it to be problematic. BUT, they are not that good of a handlers. Better than most, but not on par with Infinity or most BMWs. OTOH, my E39 M5 constantly needed something.. sometimes it's small, sometimes it's big. Still, my most favorite car and I didn't think it was unreliable because it was as reliable as I expected it to be.

Most new cars suffer from being overcomplicated and having all this new technology crammed into them, some fairly untested. Drivetrains are pretty reliable.. Although anything with turbos needs special attention to last and probably extra maint for when those turbos will need replacement.

From your list, G37 would be my choice if you want a reliable *sport*(handling) sedan that is fairly quick and has MT. I'd owned a G35C back in mid 2000s and still think it was one of the best handling cars that has a rear seat. Better than most M3s in my view.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I have an s550 and I've owned a crown vic. I promise you I can get anywhere faster in the crown vic plus there is the hilarity of people diving off the road in front of you into businesses that are obviously closed, lol. Truly is amazing how people get out of your way.

Lol, I have no doubt there's plenty of fun to be had with an old Crown Vic, but they handle like a boat (because they are a boat)! The SHO is technically the "Crown Vic" around here anyway, because a lot of police interceptors are an SHO in police trim. No fancy tech stuff like the SHO, but same suspension and EB v6/AWD equipment.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Bolded part. This is a really big depends. If you talk about BMW M car, or MB AMG, or even Audi RS, then yes, you are correct.

On the other hand, Audi A/S(4,5,6) cars are fairly tame. They are, at the heart, re-engineered VWs with nicer stuff. Parts are middle of the road expensive and just about anyone can work on them. I used to own an 2.7TT S4(though not very long) and didn't find it to be problematic. BUT, they are not that good of a handlers. Better than most, but not on par with Infinity or most BMWs. OTOH, my E39 M5 constantly needed something.. sometimes it's small, sometimes it's big. Still, my most favorite car and I didn't think it was unreliable because it was as reliable as I expected it to be.

Most new cars suffer from being overcomplicated and having all this new technology crammed into them, some fairly untested. Drivetrains are pretty reliable.. Although anything with turbos needs special attention to last and probably extra maint for when those turbos will need replacement.

From your list, G37 would be my choice if you want a reliable *sport*(handling) sedan that is fairly quick and has MT. I'd owned a G35C back in mid 2000s and still think it was one of the best handling cars that has a rear seat. Better than most M3s in my view.

Definitely appreciated input. Unfortunately, the Q50 dropped the 6MT option, so I would have to find a G37 to make the 6MT happen. The wife can drive stick (zing!) so that doesn't create an issue, either.

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

OTOH, my E39 M5 constantly needed something.. sometimes it's small, sometimes it's big. Still, my most favorite car and I didn't think it was unreliable because it was as reliable as I expected it to be.

You have an e39 M5, too?! I don't think I've ever met another owner besides who I bought mine from. Not my favorite car but hands down my favorite BMW.

 

[genna]

Definitely appreciated input. Unfortunately, the Q50 dropped the 6MT option, so I would have to find a G37 to make the 6MT happen. The wife can drive stick (zing!) so that doesn't create an issue, either.

That's why I said G37 and not Q50 .

IMHO, Infinity is one of the best cars to buy used anyway. They drop prices like a rock . At least they used to. Fully loaded G Sedan was around 40K new at the end of the run.

My wife wants to learn, I sort of tried to teach her and I think she could do it just fine, but that is a 2500 clutch in the CTSV

 

[Austingt350]

OTOH, my E39 M5 constantly needed something.. sometimes it's small, sometimes it's big. Still, my most favorite car and I didn't think it was unreliable because it was as reliable as I expected it to be.

You're lucky you didn't need to do a clutch.

 

[genna]

You have an e39 M5, too?! I don't think I've ever met another owner besides who I bought mine from. Not my favorite car but hands down my favorite BMW.

Had .. Bought '03 used in 07 and sold it with over 100K miles on it in 2012.

 

[genna]

You're lucky you didn't need to do a clutch.

I had to replace a VANOS unit ask me how much that is!

Actually, I bought 3rd party warranty on it for 3K, best money ever spent!

 

[bradg33]

I bolded the part I'm not sure I'm willing to accept. That's my apprehension about BMW/Merc/Audi is that they are premium vehicles which like to have premium upkeep. There are M3/M5s, and 6-series that have eaten guys' lunch because of high-strung engines and complex electrical systems. I want to be able to work on it myself, and those who own a lot of those cars usually don't.

The main problem with the CTS-V is that you can't pick up a 2009 or later model for less than $29K used with 60K+ on them. It's a lot to pay for an 8-yr old car with 1/3 of its useful life gone! As with anything though, you have to pay to play.

I haven't turned wrenches on a BMW or Merc, but I have on the Audi. They're not all that difficult to work on, it's just that for every part you need to replace, you have to remove 10 that are in the way. As far as regular, preventative maintenance, the biggest items are things like timing belts, which MUST be replaced on or ahead of the factory-recommended schedule. It's a big, though not especially complicated, job.

 

[Ted]

We ended up with a Crown Vic when the kid was small, we found a civilian model with the performance and handling package, so basically a cop car underneath. It had enough room for a rear facing baby seat while giving me good legroom and had a large trunk that swallowed strollers, pack and play and all the other assorted baby stuff. And that thing got squatters out of the left lane like Moses parting the red sea...

It was sufficient for the time.

I like Crown Vics/Town Cars fine. Owned a Town Car in college for a few years, drove Crown Vics. Also like Cadillacs (and I'm under 65 by a year or two). But, wouldn't own a CV/TC now. Might consider a CTS-V. We bought the 740 when another kid was impending (little did we know it would be two!) and have really liked it. Laurie is more of a truck girl but likes this car. If I could do it again I would've spent more on a lower mile variety, but oh well.

 

[SoonerAviator]

That's why I said G37 and not Q50 .

IMHO, Infinity is one of the best cars to buy used anyway. They drop prices like a rock . At least they used to. Fully loaded G Sedan was around 40K new at the end of the run.

My wife wants to learn, I sort of tried to teach her and I think she could do it just fine, but that is a 2500 clutch in the CTSV

Lol, my wife's father has a fairly large collection of American muscle, so she grew up around some heavy clutches and non-power assisted brakes/steering. The only thing that sometimes gets her is the lag on some carb'd big blocks that starts the whole jerky clutch engagement dance. She drove the '65 Vette we had for a year or so like a champ though (327/365HP with the M22 4spd)!

 

[SoonerAviator]

I like Crown Vics/Town Cars fine. Owned a Town Car in college for a few years, drove Crown Vics. Also like Cadillacs (and I'm under 65 by a year or two). But, wouldn't own a CV/TC now. Might consider a CTS-V. We bought the 740 when another kid was impending (little did we know it would be two!) and have really liked it. Laurie is more of a truck girl but likes this car. If I could do it again I would've spent more on a lower mile variety, but oh well.

The early-00 model 7-series (and 5-series for that matter) where some of the most attractive sedans BMW made. The late model design on those same models is fairly benign and boring. They just lost a lot of the distinctive body lines.

 

[genna]

Lol, my wife's father has a fairly large collection of American muscle, so she grew up around some heavy clutches and non-power assisted brakes/steering. The only thing that sometimes gets her is the lag on some carb'd big blocks that starts the whole jerky clutch engagement dance. She drove the '65 Vette we had for a year or so like a champ though (327/365HP with the M22 4spd)!

Awesome! Mine is a new driver only has license about a year. I tought her how to drive. I don't think she's terribly interested in having an MT car or having a performance car. Next year I promised we'll buy a new car for her, for the moment it looks like an Accord is her choice

I still want to teach her MT if only to drive my car if needed

 

[Ted]

The early-00 model 7-series (and 5-series for that matter) where some of the most attractive sedans BMW made. The late model design on those same models is fairly benign and boring. They just lost a lot of the distinctive body lines.

Agreed, and that's a lot of why we went with an E38 as our family hauler. I'd give one consideration.

 

[genna]

Agreed, and that's a lot of why we went with an E38 as our family hauler. I'd give one consideration.

One of my buddies just bought an E39 540iTouring as a family hauler . Sweet ride, CUV what? He's a BMW nut though!

 

[Ted]

One of my buddies just bought an E39 540iTouring as a family hauler . Sweet ride, CUV what? He's a BMW nut though!

We went for the 7 because of the improved rear seat room. With a 5 I know I would end up uncomfortable when driving, but I'm 6'2".

 

[Bill]

On the other hand, Audi A/S(4,5,6) cars are fairly tame.

Our E320 CDI turbo diesel has been fantastic so far. I had the dealer do the service during the warranty period, and yes, that was expensive. I've been doing everything myself since, it is not hard and the parts are reasonable. She's nearly 10yrs old and has 165k on the clock and bagged 38mpg @ 80mph on a recent road trip. The only non-routine repairs have been a water pump and thermostat.

The nice thing about the diesel is down low torque, the full 369lb-ft of torque comes on at 1800rpm, makes it real gutsy in urban traffic while still getting Honda Civic mileage. Me like.

 

[Ted]

Added note is that the 7 was my first BMW, and I've been really enjoying it. It's easy to work on and has great manners and handling. I liked it so much that I bought a Z4 for myself a year later, although I'm thinking the Z4 is too small so I might think about something bigger...

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

We went for the 7 because of the improved rear seat room. With a 5 I know I would end up uncomfortable when driving, but I'm 6'2".

Nah, my bother is 6'5" and fits just fine in my e39. Isn't 6'2" about average in Germany, anyway? Haha

 

[Ted]

Nah, my bother is 6'5" and fits just fine in my e39. Isn't 6'2" about average in Germany, anyway? Haha

I think you missed my point about 3 rear facing car seats in back, which limit how much leg room you can use.

 

[rachelk.tailwinds]

I think you missed my point about 3 rear facing car seats in back, which limit how much leg room you can use.

I actually bought the car from him, right about the time when his two daughters were in one forward-facing car seat and one rear-facing car seat. I did miss where you said you had 3 kids in the back but my statement remains unchanged, he fit just fine.

 

[Ted]

Good to know. I'm thinking mid-sized sedan if I sell the Z4, but leaning towards an XJR, or maybe E55.

 

[charheep]

Add in another vote for the G37. I personally know several people that owned them and they were fast enough, nice luxury and dead reliable.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Good to know. I'm thinking mid-sized sedan if I sell the Z4, but leaning towards an XJR, or maybe E55.

The SL600 Mercs are a blast to drive with the V12 singing away under the hood and the top down. However, the entire interior is comprised of a button for everything. It's got more switches and buttons than the panel on any twin piston, lol.

 

[Ted]

The SL600 Mercs are a blast to drive with the V12 singing away under the hood and the top down. However, the entire interior is comprised of a button for everything. It's got more switches and buttons than the panel on any twin piston, lol.

I've thought about a V12 Benz. I've owned half a dozen V12 Jags (and worked on a bunch more) so V12s don't scare me. But I don't want another coupe/vert for this next purchase, don't really want an S class land barge, and can't afford a RENNtech E7.4rs (the 2000ish E class with a 7.4L V12 shoehorned in), so I think probably a V8 if I go that route.

Only thing is the later E55s with the supercharged 5.5L V8 seem more appealing, which might make me go for the XJR this time around. Slap a few pulleys on and I'm up to 450 HP.

 

[Craig]

I'll kick in a couple of different thoughts. I've got a 15 year old that outgrew the back seat of our extended cab pickup. The wife wanted something she didn't have to climb in. I narrowed things down to Audi A8L, BMW 750IL and Lexus LS460L. All three are stretched in the back seat area and offer scads of back seat room. We ended up with the Audi and it's a rocket ship. 330 hp and all wheel drive coupled with air ride suspension but not super great on mileage. I get about 21 mpg on the road, but remember it's a 4400 pound car. First long ride we took and we were very comfortable running down the highway and passing everything on the road. Then I looked at the speedometer and discovered we were cruising along at 92 mph

The only reason I passed on the Lexus, was trying to find one local that was within the price range I wanted to spend at the time. I passed on a number of the BMW's as all I could find were either black or white and didn't want either color.

As to maintenance, if you keep up on it and go by the book, it's not bad at all. If fact, I just picked up a 1999 A4 Avant 5 speed, for the 15 year old as his first car.

 

[MyassisDragon]

My vote is for the G37 (awd)

A few years ago I was set on moving from SUV to sport sedan so I was looking at used AWD cars like the Tarus, CTS, lexus IS sedan or G37. After many test drives I ended up deciding on the Infiniti due to fit and finish and it was a lot of fun to drive with the sport package.

Unfortunately after a day of driving G37s I got distracted and drove an infiniti FX (fully loaded ). We bought it within the hour and haven't looked back.

The reason was it still had the quality fit and finish, the seats have great lumbar and side support like the g37 but now I can fit a few sets of golf clubs in the trunk and still be able to take friends with to use them.

I have over 100k on the car and only had to replace tires/brakes and when someone rides in the car it is still as tight as the day it rolled out of the factory...

 

[genna]

Want to add something about handling here.

Taurus SHO is a FWD architecture car with added AWD
Infinity is a RWD car with AWD(rear bias) as an option.

This distinction is rather important in how the cars will handle. Personally, unless you really need the AWD, I'd skip it and get a RWD Infinity. Much better handling and gas millage. Also cheaper and less stuff to go wrong/maintain. Use winter tires for winter if snow is an issue.. better than all-season + AWD anyway. That's what I did with my G(it had an LSD, that helps a lot) and drove circles in snow around all the SUVs.

But even if you want the AWD, with something like 400-500lb less weight, rear-bias AWD system(I'm not sure how ford does it), and nearly perfect weight distribution, I would think that G will out-handle SHO without any issues.

EDIT: and before people get all crazy about my RWD handle better comment, I will add this: AWD gives you much better traction going forward and out of the corners. RWD gives you much more predictable behavior in the corners. The last part is how handling is defined. It's not that you are going faster around the corner, but you can easily get to the limit and come back from beyond the limit.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Well, for what track numbers and stats are worth, the SHO pulls .86g while the G37 pulls .89g. Obviously steering/handling feel will be different due to weight alone, but they have remarkably similar numbers.

I like RWD handling as well regarding design architecture, but the AWD inclusion was just a way around it to include more cars. The little bit of snow/ice we see in Northeast OK doesn't necessitate AWD by any means.


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[Seanaldinho]

Don't forget to factor in how ugly the taurus is. Id be looking at Audis and the Infiniti.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Don't forget to factor in how ugly the taurus is. Id be looking at Audis and the Infiniti.

Well, like most things it's subjective. It's not my favorite of the bunch, but it's not ugly in SHO trim. I think the high belt line and tall roof height are the main detractors. Headlights, taillights, wheels, and grill are okay. If I'm going off of exterior looks alone, the Pontiac G8 GXP has the best profile and stance of anything in the same category.

 

[Seanaldinho]

Well, like most things it's subjective. It's not my favorite of the bunch, but it's not ugly in SHO trim. I think the high belt line and tall roof height are the main detractors. Headlights, taillights, wheels, and grill are okay. If I'm going off of exterior looks alone, the Pontiac G8 GXP has the best profile and stance of anything in the same category.

Just kinda looked like they started making a Bentley Super Continental and got confused. Big tires, high roofline, grill, etc

 

[SoonerAviator]

Just kinda looked like they started making a Bentley Super Continental and got confused. Big tires, high roofline, grill, etc

There's definitely some truth to that. I'm willing to bet they revamp it in 2017 to fall in line with the MKZ/Fusion lineup and shed 300+lbs of weight as well as a much leaner look. However, I'm not in a position to wait, nor do I want to pay $45K+ for one.

The Chevy SS would be great car if Chevy hadn't put the damn Malibu body on it.


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[35 AoA]

I will save you my thoughts on why you should buy German, but based on the list you gave, I'd go #1 G8, then #2 ATS. I love the G8 and previous Holden/GTO body style and drivetrain. Friend just bought an ATS and loves it. Beyond that, your other choices aren't bad.

 

[genna]

Well, for what track numbers and stats are worth, the SHO pulls .86g while the G37 pulls .89g. Obviously steering/handling feel will be different due to weight alone, but they have remarkably similar numbers.

I like RWD handling as well regarding design architecture, but the AWD inclusion was just a way around it to include more cars. The little bit of snow/ice we see in Northeast OK doesn't necessitate AWD by any means.


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Agreed

As you pointed out, skid pad numbers mean mostly nothing. Just a function of tires and weight. Does not say anything about handling.

 

[genna]

I will save you my thoughts on why you should buy German, but based on the list you gave, I'd go #1 G8, then #2 ATS. I love the G8 and previous Holden/GTO body style and drivetrain. Friend just bought an ATS and loves it. Beyond that, your other choices aren't bad.

I've driven ATS 2.0 auto. 2013 and 2015(8sp auto) models. Nice car. Good handling. Cue sucks ass. AT also sucks(I'm biased thought). Otherwise, I'd buy it. Especially atsv

 

[Flyby44]

Look for the coming Tesla 3 and Chevy Bolt - electric cars outside the price range but may be worth a look. Lower fuel costs and way less maintenance, plus that electric torque baby!