1965 Cherokee 140, IFR

Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by Jon Gunther, Jul 23, 2018.

  1. Jon Gunther

    Jon Gunther Pre-Flight

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    Hello all, I am the proud new owner of a 65 Cherokee 140. I am working on my private right now and plan on going all the way to commerical. In January I will be changing my transponder to meet the ads-b requirement. While it is in the shop I plan on making it IFR certified.

    My current avionics include duel nav/com one has glideslope. One is a king, not sure on the other. I also have a panel mounted Garmin 296 gps. From my research, as long as my pitot static system checks out I am IFR legal.

    What are some things I should look into while we have the plane in the shop. I will be doing most of my flying in Oklahoma but do plan on going to California and Florida occasionally. We have considered re arranging the panel as well
     
  2. John221us

    John221us En-Route

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    Pitot heat, if you plan on actually going in the soup. DME or GPS (296 doesn't count, even in the panel). I looked into getting my Cherokee IFR, but in the end, it wasn't worth it to me.
     
  3. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    @RussR is a good CFI-I to know for IFR instruction and flying in the Oklahoma area. He's based in OKC. But currently at AirVenture so it might be a bit for him to see this thread and respond.

    FAR 91.205 covers the required equipment you need for IFR flight. So if you have those items, then "at minimum" you're good.


    However with the phasing out of VOR's around the country, and GPS based nav becoming more the norm, having a good WAAS navigator should be of interest to you. Examples of used equipment would be the Garmin 430W, Garmin 530W, Garmin 480, Apollo CNX80. Examples of new equipment include the Garmin GTN series and Avidyne IFD series.

    Also helpful is an autopilot. A good autopilot, especially coupled to the navigator, can reduce your workload tremendously. TruTrak is producing one for the Cherokees that is reported to be at an affordable price.
     
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  4. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    I have a 1965 Cherokee 140 as well and did my entire IR in it. For most of the training I had two KX170Bs, two King CDIs (old unreliable models to be honest) - one LOC only and one ILS. I too have a 296 as well.

    At the very end of my training we ended up putting a Garmin G5 HSI in and a GNC255 radio. Amazing stuff.

    Old Panel:
    [​IMG]
    IMG_0160.JPG

    New Panel:
    IMG_2383.JPG
    [​IMG]
     
  5. RussR

    RussR Cleared for Takeoff

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    Thanks @AggieMike88 !

    @Jon Gunther , I don't know that I have anything particular to add to the advice already given - you may not have to actually do anything to your airplane to make it IFR legal, but certainly can go overboard and spend as much as you want. Where in OK are you? That would affect the decision (primarily regarding whether VOR/ILS navigation is going to be sufficient for you for the short term).
     
  6. Jon Gunther

    Jon Gunther Pre-Flight

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    I am in okc flying out of Sundance. Currently under the instruction of Scott Dorsey

    Here are a couple pics of my panel
     

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  7. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    I think we have the best image for the dictionary when you look up "Piper shotgun layout".

    If that was my airplane, I might consider rearranging some of the instruments into as close to a "normal" six-pack arrangement as possible.

    Location -- Instrument
    1 -- Airspeed
    2 -- Attitude Indicator
    3 -- Altitude
    4 -- Turn Coordinator
    5 -- DG
    6 -- VSI

    Doing so is gonna reduce your workload significantly. And it makes for better muscle memory of your scan, especially if you ever fly a different airplane.

    All of the instruments that need to move appear to be the same size, so costs to do the moving should remain reasonable.


    upload_2018-7-23_13-55-24.png
     
  8. John221us

    John221us En-Route

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    I looked into that. It is expensive. On a Cherokee, the panel is considered structural and a couple of those holes are smaller than standard. Also, not all of the holes are very deep (they won't take a full instrument).
     
  9. RussR

    RussR Cleared for Takeoff

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    I know Scott. Sundance is the main airport I fly out of as well (though I don't work for the school), but I also do some instruction at the other airports around OKC. I've probably seen your plane around, I'll try to say hi next time I do!
     
  10. Jon Gunther

    Jon Gunther Pre-Flight

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    Going to be about 3 weeks before I fly again. Out of town on vacation. Look forward to meeting you
     
  11. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    @Jon Gunther ... some of Denizens of DFW are known to fly up to Ozzie's for Breakfast. And to help raise the IQ of both states.

    I'll make sure to ping you the next time I head that way.
     
  12. deyoung

    deyoung Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Standby vacuum, if you plan to actually fly in IMC much? If you'll mostly be training/practicing instrument stuff, not as important.
     
  13. Jon Gunther

    Jon Gunther Pre-Flight

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    I figure it will mostly be training and practice, or pop up if im on a long cross country
     
  14. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Find a deal on a GNS430 and nav head, be a good IFR plane.

    A good single pilot IMC plane is a different story.
     
  15. bkspero

    bkspero Pre-takeoff checklist

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    You probably already know this, but you will need to keep the VOR's current with their 30 day checks.
     
  16. tawood

    tawood Pattern Altitude

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    Hi Jon,
    I've got a '66 PA28, with the (nearly) same panel. Only thing I added was pitot heat. My panel is arranged just like yours, other than the turn and bank on mine is switched with your lower VOR CDI. I haven't found the panel arrangement a problem. Also, instead of a standby vacuum, I just picked up a Stratus 2s so it has the AHRS for emergencies (my instructor had me try flying under the hood with JUST the ipad/AHRS, and it worked great). I know some people say you should have an AP, but I've found the PA28 so stable that not having one is no big deal.
    Tim
     
  17. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips Pattern Altitude

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    I agree with the autopilot. I flew for three hours in solid IMC with my old Skyhawk, no AP (and only a 1997 handheld GPS on the yoke). I literally stunk at the end of that flight. I had "needle, ball, airspeed" running through my head! Very difficult to communicate and look at charts and AFD whilst keeping it upright.
     
  18. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    Says me sell the Cherokee and buy one with all the stuff in it already. Boxes are expensive, installing them even moreso. And get that 296 out of your panel, damn things are old and slow.
     
  19. Jon Gunther

    Jon Gunther Pre-Flight

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    Well I just bought the plane. So selling and buying a different one is not in the cards right now. As for the gps I have, it may be old but it is better than not having one at all. I know I can not use it for IFR approaches, it is still good for general enroute flying as long as I back it up to charts.
     
  20. NordicDave

    NordicDave Line Up and Wait

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    The less gear in your plane, the less the examiner has to test you on during your check ride.
     
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  21. chemgeek

    chemgeek Cleared for Takeoff

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    You have enough to earn the IR rating, but the reality of the airspace system now is it's becoming more WAAS-GPS-centric. It would be ideal, if more expensive, to get the IR rating while learning to operate a WAAS GPS system. Flying LPVs are not so hard, it's learning to be facile with the "knobology." A used GNS-430W is probably the cheapest (but not cheap) way to get into WAAS, and could enhance having ADS-B, especially if you have IN capability. However, WAAS GPS can be a significant fraction of the value of the aircraft.

    An autopilot is nice, especially single pilot IFR, but not essential. I flew single pilot IFR for many years without. It's hectic at times, but doable if you are competent. During training, you probably don't need George anyway while you hone your control skills.
     
  22. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    You can get the rating,as equipped,wouldn’t be in a hurry ,to actually fly single pilot IFR,in IMC conditions.
     
  23. Jon Gunther

    Jon Gunther Pre-Flight

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    Thank you for the info, I have found a couple gps 400's how do they stack up. I know they are just the gps but they are around $3000 for the waas vs the $5--8000 for the 430 and my com/nav radios are working.
     
  24. hish747

    hish747 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I think the 400W is great and in some ways I prefer it to the more complicated 430W as with added function come added complexity of having to remember to switch from GPS to LOC mode and vice versa. But you may find that if panel space is an issue, you may want to see if selling your existing NAV/COM radio(s) will bridge the price gap. I don't know hoe much longer it will be supported but the Garmin 480/Apollo CNX80 is without a doubt the best space/cost bang for your buck WAAS GPS/NAV/COM. The monitor function makes it like having a second com in the panel.
     
  25. chemgeek

    chemgeek Cleared for Takeoff

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    And of course Garmin now has some pretty snappy options for upgrading your panel to WAAS. Before you touch your ADS-B compliance, you really need to look at the GNX375--ADS-B and WAAS GPS in one box. Plus inflight weather. That's a sweet IFR package if you already have usable NAV/COMs. If you cheap out on the ADS-B, then the GPS 175 is another option, but the GNX 375 is a real bargain for a modern WAAS + ADS-B solution, and will give you a ton of capability. The 400W and 430W units are tanks, and very reliable, but these are entering their third decade of service, so support will not last forever. I say that as a GNS-430W owner--at some point, future support will effectively be in the form of plug-in replacements like the Avidyne products.

    If you don't want to go the GNX 375/GPS 175 route, at least carefully consider your options for ADS-B so that your solution is compatible with any future avionics upgrades. It would be tragic to install an ADS-B unit that does not talk well with your other avionics. And if flying IFR, think about how you are going to get in-flight weather--you WILL want that capability, and a panel solution is in many ways much cleaner than a portable one, if more costly. XM weather and FIS-B is both very nice.
     
  26. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    480 is out of support already. If it fails, Garmin ain’t fixing it
     
  27. Jon Gunther

    Jon Gunther Pre-Flight

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    As for ads-b I went with the skybeacon. After some bumps I finally got it working. Along the way we did get the plane IFR certified. Had to replace airspeed/altimeter and fix a couple leaks but it is all good now. We have done a few IFR flights in it so far and everything seams to be working. Not so sure on the glide slope yet it worked on one approach but the next one not so much. We have not tested it again since. For now, I will not be looking into a was gps just dont have the funds for it right now. I do have ads-b in with a stratux with ahrs. My instructor prefers to teach IFR using all old school methods so he actually prefers to not use the GPS. He does teach it if available but as a secondary system not the primary
     
  28. JScarry

    JScarry Pre-takeoff checklist

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    We talked about this in another thread, but I rearranged my panel when I first got my 1966 Cherokee. It only took a couple of hours of A&P time and it is much closer to a six-pack. I don’t really notice the difference when I fly planes with a real six-pack. I need to replace the clock to make it IFR legal.

    Cherokee Panel.jpeg
     
  29. Chris Ellington

    Chris Ellington Filing Flight Plan

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    Congrats on the Cherokee (even though this is old thread). I bought a 1964 model six years ago 15 hours in as a student and have now logged over 150 hours total with it. Dual Nav/Coms, one with GS. Like yours the first sqawks taken care of were overhaul of a faulty speed indicator and attitude indicator and replacement of all the hoses due to dry rot to get it past IFR testing. In six years I've been through about every system on it adding shoulder belts in front, update of some of the interior, new exhaust pipes, and many other items. I've kicked around idea of getting something bigger and faster, but hate starting over updating everything in an unknown plane.

    I too added the Skybeacon with a few difficulties passing the testing,so had to also get a used Garmin 327 transponder installed, but at least now all my avionics are of 1990's era or newer. haha. No GPS, I too just can't put the funds in to a WAAS system. I've stated IFR training, so somewhat limited on which airports I can go to with no RNAV, but I think I can help build a lot of the time needed with help of a couple local safety pilots.

    About every two years I've considered rearranging my steam gauges to get a true six pack and my mechanic is willing to help with the 337 form to do it all right with a newly cut aluminum backplate, but I've learned to just adjust my scan for now when in different planes.

    Need to spend more time flying the plane than having it apart.:)
     
  30. Jon Gunther

    Jon Gunther Pre-Flight

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    I understand that one, I got quoted $3000 to re do the panel at the avionics shop. Once I get my a&p I may do it on my own with the help of my IA
     
  31. mryan75

    mryan75 Line Up and Wait

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    Our '66 140 has the same bizarre panel layout. I asked about having them rearranged and was dissuaded.