1965 C-150 Pre-Buy Result

[Mooney Fan]

Plane went through pre-buy with the following being reported. Plane just came out of Annual last month.

If you got a report like this how would you have interpreted it?

Im no longer pursuing the plane as a result.

Going off past experience

P

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Par for the course on a 58 year old airplane. What were your concerns?

 

[manac]

This thread is worthless without pictures, hours, and price.

 

[frfly172]

It’s all relative depending on the asking price.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Depending on what prop it has, the static max RPM might be out of spec:




The rest of it appears to need some money spent on it. Not many 58-year-old airplanes around that won't need money spent on them.

One of the things I'd be looking at are those main gear legs. They are the flat steel leaf that tends to corrode, especially under the step clamp, and corrosion pitting weakens that gear a whole lot and it can suddenly crack and break. Just try finding replacement gear legs....

 

[mondtster]

A list without any other information wouldn't compel me to walk away from a deal. This is a 58 year old airplane, it is guaranteed to have problems.

 

[schmookeeg]

surface corrosion on a baffle! You just barely dodged a bullet there

I'd get quotes to address the wing corrosion and get a closer look there, and the skin cracks patched/verified it's not just cracked paint. The rest, as mentioned, sounds like old plane stuff. If the plane was priced as if it was perfect, I'd be discussing credits from the seller and putting on dog about my profound disappointment and how many thousands I need to remedy the situation. If I was busy robbing the deceased pilot's widow, I would pay her, smile, and cart the thing away to be treated and patched elsewhere, because it seems like basic plane stuff, not neglect, not basketcase -- disuse at worst.

 

[RyanB]

Let's be clear that a 'fresh annual' means absolutely nothing, especially right before the owner goes to sell it. This is an example of such, where these discrepancies should've been remedy-ied. What's the asking price? Might be a deal, might not be.

 

[texasclouds]

Yea, but how’s the paint job?? Offer $50k and see if he bites!

 

[Jdm]

Sounds like a coastal or salty environment. Still not too bad considering it’s age.

 

[Lawson_Stone]

I would love to see a series of posts in which the ad for the plane is presented along with the results of a pre-buy on that plane.

 

[Bell206]

If you got a report like this how would you have interpreted it?

Depends. But the one person's interpretation that would count the most would be the mechanic you plan to use after you bought the aircraft, as he would be the one charging you to fix those discrepancies... along with the other discrepancies he will probably find during the next repair/inspection process.

 

[wheaties]

I have a '64 Cessna and it has a spot on a non-structural portion of one wing. Scrubbed and treated, it looks like every other plane on the inside of the wing at my airport. The cracking can be stop drilled and probably isn't a worry. Hiw bad is the corrosion on the bottom? That would worry me as they can be hard to treat

 

[ateamer]

I’d want more information, and pictures would help. Where on the baffling is the corrosion, how extensive? How long are the cracks? Any evidence of previous repairs? What does “minor hail damage” mean? Where, how many dents, how deep?

 

[Jdm]

Make sure they pull the overhead liner back to check for corrosion as well. It seems to be a problem area that’s easily missed.

 

[mondtster]

The corrosion and cracks on the ailerons and flaps would be my biggest concerns. Without any more detailed information there isn’t much ability to decide if the aircraft is okay or if it is going to need repair.

 

[GeorgeC]

I have a '64 Cessna and it has a spot on a non-structural portion of one wing. Scrubbed and treated, it looks like every other plane on the inside of the wing at my airport. The cracking can be stop drilled and probably isn't a worry. How bad is the corrosion on the bottom? That would worry me as they can be hard to treat

You can deal with the corrosion on the bottom when you take everything apart to convert it to tailwheel.

 

[Dan Thomas]

I have a '64 Cessna and it has a spot on a non-structural portion of one wing. Scrubbed and treated, it looks like every other plane on the inside of the wing at my airport. The cracking can be stop drilled and probably isn't a worry. Hiw bad is the corrosion on the bottom? That would worry me as they can be hard to treat

The only "non-structural" portions of a Cessna wing are the root, strut and tip fairings and the three- or four-screw inspection hole covers. The skin is as structural as the rest of the wing, as are the six-screw covers. Cracks in certain places can mean trouble inside.

 

[martym]

Corrosion on engine baffle was a deal breaker for me !

 

[Pinecone]

WTF that is had an annual a month ago with cracks in control surface skins. REALLY?

 

[Dan Thomas]

WTF that is had an annual a month ago with cracks in control surface skins. REALLY?

It all depends.

The '69-75 C150 service manual has this, and it's typical of most of the Cessna singles:







Some later manuals had more info. In any case, Cessna issued a Temporary Revision to most manuals in 2000, but many shops and mechanics don't keep their manuals current. That means that the free online versions almost never are current. This is what it looked like, for the flaps:



So, it depends where those cracks are and how long they are and on and on, and in the end it comes down to the mechanics judgement, since it's his ticket that gets torn up if something goes wrong. Or, the owner can decline to have it repaired, the mechanic can log that and get the owner to sign it, and off it goes. Now it's on the owner's head.

Flight training sometimes means flying around in slow flight with the flaps extended some. The prop blast pounds those flap skins and causes cracking at the trailing edges, through the rivet holes. McFarlane sells an STC'd heavier flap skin for most Cessnas. I used them, along with McFarlane's tapered trailing edge extrusion, and they stopped the cracking.

Now, if there was cracking around the flap support arms, or around the pushrod attach location, or around the aileron's pushrod location or at the hinges, that's another story altogether. Depends, like I say.

 

[Pinecone]

If they are not stop drilled, they are not acceptable for flight. Both references cited say that.

 

[brcase]

Bent spinner sounds to me like it has the possibility of an AMU+ to make airworthy also. Or might just be cosmetic.

Brian
Not an A&P

 

[Bell206]

If they are not stop drilled, they are not acceptable for flight.

Who says the ones in the OP list are not stop-drilled? Not the first time "cracks" have shown up on an old Cessna "prebuy" list.

 

[Pinecone]

If they are stop drilled and less than 2 inches, either why mention them, or why not mention "Crack - within limits"?
?

 

[Bell206]

If they are stop drilled and less than 2 inches, either why mention them, or why not mention "Crack - within limits"?

My guess the mechanic mentioned them as this is a prebuy and the cracks represent a possible future issue. Or given the prebuy list is pretty basic maybe he was padding the list? Regardless don't see any real issues with the list or the aircraft (based on that list) except maybe how he defines "minor" hail damage.

 

[Dan Thomas]

If they are stop drilled and less than 2 inches, either why mention them, or why not mention "Crack - within limits"?
?

Because of this, from the same quote I gave earlier:



The mechanic is protecting himself by recording that. If he didn't, and the OP bought the airplane and another mechanic started working on it and pointed them out, the OP might be inclined to take legal action.

If you ever get into aircraft maintenance as a career, a lot of stuff starts to look different. Change the frame of reference from pilot to mechanic, via training and experience, and many things a pilot might find stupid are perfectly sensible to the mechanic.

 

[Magman]

]Comments?



I’ve done PB’s where Buyer #1 paid for the service but decided to pass on buying.

Later the Seller refers Buyers 2,3 and 4 to me for the results of the

survey/inspection. Free of course since I had already been paid.

My take is the Check was done per instructions of #1 and the results are his/ hers

to do with as they see fit.

Those later at the table seem to feel that explanations are gratis as well.

There is some amount of financial liability here as to what the scope of the PB

was and what they think it should have been.

Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

 

[Bell206]

I’ve done PB’s where Buyer #1 paid for the service but decided to pass on buying. Later the Seller refers Buyers 2,3 and 4 to me for the results of the survey/inspection. Free of course since I had already been paid.

FWIW: when I was paid to perform a prebuy, that specific person would receive my report/recommendation as it is their "property." Any future buyers looking for those results would need to contact that person. I might answer a few general questions from other buyers if I was local to the aircraft but it was not my place to disseminate copies of that original report. However, this was not a common occurrence in my experience.

 

[GeorgeC]

Bent spinner sounds to me like it has the possibility of an AMU+ to make airworthy also. Or might just be cosmetic.

Brian
Not an A&P

Or a skullcap spinner is $50.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Or a skullcap spinner is $50.

Spinner types are serial-number specific. That 1965 the OP's looking at has, according to the parts catalog and the serial number ranges given in the TCDS, a full three-piece spinner. If it has a skullcap, it might be on there illegally (unless by STC or 337) and the mechanic wouldn't have mentioned it being "bent on bulkhead side." Skullcaps applied to serial numbers 17001 to 15059949 (150B, circa 1962).

The airplane's equipment list, part of the weight and balance documents, will show the spinner that belongs on it. When one gets into the later '60s 150s, the cowling design changed and the spinner became part of the cooling system flow control. Pretty critical.

Univair has aftermarket spinners for a lot of older airplanes like this.

 

[aftCG]

If they are stop drilled and less than 2 inches, either why mention them, or why not mention "Crack - within limits"?
?

Same reason they didn't mention that corrosion on a baffle is a non event.

 

[DaleB]

FWIW: when I was paid to perform a prebuy, that specific person would receive my report/recommendation as it is their "property." Any future buyers looking for those results would need to contact that person. I might answer a few general questions from other buyers if I was local to the aircraft but it was not my place to disseminate copies of that original report.

Prebuy inspections on houses are the same. If I pay for an inspection, that’s my report and the next prospective buyer doesn’t get it for free.

 

[Mooney Fan]

Thanks everyone. Sorry for not getting back but the broker/seller were dragging their feet on getting the escrow closed and my funds returned.

Bottom line- The plane was advertised with no damage history (except documented incident 67') yet it has cosmetic hail damage. I didn't notice it util after I made a deposit and looked closer at the images on an IMAC. I then relied on the mechanic to give me his interpretation whether the damage was cosmetic. Lessons learned. Don't rely on the IPhone alone to view the images. In addition the cracked control surfaces were a non-starter and were not reported. 2 flaps and one aileron needed replaced. Contacted with the folks at Williams and its a 6 week wait and $2800 per flap and $2800 per aileron.

The plane has a complete vacuum failure. Suction nill AI on the stops on an on. Again, all with 0 time after a fresh annual.

The plane also had more corrosion than I was willing to assume.

In the end, the owner refused to lower the price but drug the escrow out until he/she was satisfied as to how the plane just came out of an extensive annual but yet I wouldn't buy it. They were not happy with me I believe but I did receive my deposit back minus cost for the pre-buy and A/C movement.

Thanks again for the advice.

But now I'm on another case. Flew a cherry 75' C-150 today with 12 hours SMOH (by George Coy Aviation VT) , new prop, carb, mags the works. IFR 6-pack. Only issue, is its missing A/F log prior to 87'. Looking at the condition of the plane and knowing the person who owns it, I'm thinking about overlooking it. The price of the plane does not reflect a missing log book (even one 36 years and older) but again, it is mint so meh.

Good times

 

[Mooney Fan]

Same reason they didn't mention that corrosion on a baffle is a non event.

From an airworthy perspective of course its not. I don't know many folks who would buy a plane with cracked control surfaces unless the price reflects the damage. Then the price of the plane speaks for itself. No need to point out the cracks.

 

[Mooney Fan]

My guess the mechanic mentioned them as this is a prebuy and the cracks represent a possible future issue. Or given the prebuy list is pretty basic maybe he was padding the list? Regardless don't see any real issues with the list or the aircraft (based on that list) except maybe how he defines "minor" hail damage.

They wanted 47K

 

[Mooney Fan]

If they are not stop drilled, they are not acceptable for flight. Both references cited say that.

And the stop drills in this A/C are only a temporary fix due to the proximity of rivet rows and leading edge.

 

[schmookeeg]

Thanks everyone. Sorry for not getting back but the broker/seller were dragging their feet on getting the escrow closed and my funds returned.

Congrats. The pre-buy turned up things you were not satisfied with, and that the seller was unwilling to compromise. It did its job

 

[pfarber]

Because of this, from the same quote I gave earlier:

View attachment 116606


The mechanic is protecting himself by recording that. If he didn't, and the OP bought the airplane and another mechanic started working on it and pointed them out, the OP might be inclined to take legal action.

If you ever get into aircraft maintenance as a career, a lot of stuff starts to look different. Change the frame of reference from pilot to mechanic, via training and experience, and many things a pilot might find stupid are perfectly sensible to the mechanic.

A pre-buy is not an inspection or maintenance so where is the liability? An MX doing a pre-buy should have some boilerplate stating that the pre-buy is not a statement of airworthiness and is a cursory visual inspection.

Granted you can always be sued for anything, but blaming a pre-buy for an issue is tenuous. Again, the MX should have a signed agreement of indemnity above all else.

 

[Dan Thomas]

A pre-buy is not an inspection or maintenance so where is the liability? An MX doing a pre-buy should have some boilerplate stating that the pre-buy is not a statement of airworthiness and is a cursory visual inspection.

Granted you can always be sued for anything, but blaming a pre-buy for an issue is tenuous. Again, the MX should have a signed agreement of indemnity above all else.

Once again, what are your aviation credentials? You are not a mechanic and do not understand the problems of liability.

If the mechanic saw cracks and did not note them, what is the buyer going to do or say when the next mechanic points out that those skins need replacing? That's not cheap, and it might have affected his decision to buy the airplane. What would be your reaction of you paid $500 or $1000 for a prebuy and the inspecting mechanic did not tell you that there were serious cracks in the control surface skins? Or that some control cables were frayed? Or that the spar had terrible corrosion on it?

So, then, what is the point of a prebuy if serious flaws are seen but not pointed out? Why spend the money on the prebuy in the first place? Why not just buy the airplane and let the first annual find all that expensive stuff?

And a prebuy should not be a "cursory inspection." The expensive stuff is usually hidden and it takes time to open things up and get a good look. A casual lookover is going to miss much of importance.