1964 Cherokee 180C With Missing Logs Before 2021 — Good Buy or Walk Away?

F

Ferflies

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Nov 27, 2025
Messages
1
Display Name
Ferflies
Hey everyone,


I’m looking at a 1964 Piper Cherokee 180C as a first airplane to finish my PPL and let my brother train in. Eventually I want to upgrade to a Mooney, so this would be a 1–2 year ownership. The plane looks great, but all airframe logs before 2021 are missing.

Aircraft Details
  • TT: 2,930 hrs
  • Engine: Lycoming O-360-A3A
  • SMOH: ~210 hrs (2021 overhaul by Jewell Aviation)
  • Compressions: 78/78/76/77
  • Useful load: 1,026 lbs
  • Empty weight: 1,424 lbs
  • Annual: Fresh Oct 2025
  • IFR cert: done
  • Interior: 2021 leather
  • Paint: 1997 (8.5/10)
  • Price: $109,000
Avionics
  • Aspen EFD1000 E5
  • Avidyne IFD540 GPS/Comm
  • Avidyne AMX240 audio panel
  • Lynx NGT-9000D ADS-B
  • CGR-30 engine monitor
  • New metal panel + breakers
Big Issue
Listing says:
“Logs start in 2021… mechanics lost previous logs.”
Only receipts exist for pre-2021.

So the airframe history from 1964–2020 is undocumented.

My Questions:
  1. Would you buy a Cherokee 180 with 57 years of missing logs?
  2. How much does this hurt resale?
  3. Does the strong panel + fresh engine justify the $109k price, or should missing logs drop this into the $70k–$85k range?
  4. Anything specific to check on an early 180C if I move forward with a pre-buy?
Appreciate any experienced input. Trying to avoid a bad first purchase.
 
You can spend $5 or so with the FAA and get a cd/dvd of all 337s that were filed. That may give you more history on the airplane. But my personal opinion….

Run away. Fast.

You don’t know about any possible pre2021 damage or if pre2021 ADs were complied with.

I’m paranoid about my logs. The original books are stored in a fire box, multiple dvd copies stored in my safe deposit box, another set at the hangar, copied to my iPad, etc.
 
There will be a need to verify compliance with ADs.

But no logs at all for that long? It needs a prebuy with a very, very deep look at the airplane and there is no AD compliance, so it isn't even legal to fly.

I wouldn't. You're buying a project that is a gift that just keeps taking.
 
Ferflies said:
  1. Would you buy a Cherokee 180 with 57 years of missing logs?
  2. How much does this hurt resale?
  3. Does the strong panel + fresh engine justify the $109k price, or should missing logs drop this into the $70k–$85k range?
  4. Anything specific to check on an early 180C if I move forward with a pre-buy?
Click to expand...

1. Sure, for a significant discount, which this appears to not be.
2. There are two factors to "affect resale" -- potential max price, and "funnel size" of interested buyers -- meaning it may take longer to sell the same item vs. one without the stories. This plane is missing nearly 95% of its maintenance history. Yeah, it's gonna damage both significantly. Buyers hate "stories" and this is a "story" you cannot fix for any price.

I'm unqualified to comment on item 3 or 4, so hold my thoughts on item 1 as suspicious. I'll stand firm on answer 2 though. For a 1-2 year horizon flip, you're buying a lot of future PITA vs. something shiny and desirable. If you buy a plane that takes you 6mo to sell, you eat those holding costs and lose a lot of flexibility. Better to buy something shiny that you can exit quickly IMHO.

$0.02
 
Logs on my old 180 were missing from 63-74. Digging deeper, the right wing had to be removed and repaired. And the forward spar attach point had to be repaired. So they hit something fairly hard then to make the evidence go away they unalived that airframe log. Curiosly they didn't "lose" the original engine logs.

There's probably a reason those logs are missing. Find that reason before proceeding
 
Hard pass. Learning to fly is hard enough before you add learning to be an owner. The first rule of ownership is find the IA that’s going to do your first annual. Ask for their thoughts on inspecting an airplane with nearly the entirety of its log missing.
 
A mechanic "lost" the logbooks? Right. More like the mechanic HAS the logbooks and is waiting for payment for his work. Tell the owner to sell it to the mechanic.
 
dtuuri said:
A mechanic "lost" the logbooks? Right. More like the mechanic HAS the logbooks and is waiting for payment for his work. Tell the owner to sell it to the mechanic.
Click to expand...

The mechanic could place a lien against the airplane if he was owed money.
 
Ferflies said:
Appreciate any experienced input.
Click to expand...
Discuss this with the mechanic you plan to use if you buy this aircraft and get him involved in the prebuy. You're going hear 1M options on the value of old aircraft logs when it boils down to a personal decision on the aircraft to include its price. But for comparison, review Part 91.417 on what records are required by regulation and if the seller cannot provide those at time of sale, then walk. If they can, then negotiate the price as you see fit. Regardless, having your mechanic on board from the beginning is always the best advice as he will be the first to tell you where you screwed up during your first annual. Best of luck.
 
bflynn said:
There will be a need to verify compliance with ADs.

But no logs at all for that long? It needs a prebuy with a very, very deep look at the airplane and there is no AD compliance, so it isn't even legal to fly.

I wouldn't. You're buying a project that is a gift that just keeps taking.
Click to expand...

How do you know there is no AD compliance?
 
It just had an annual, and presumably it’s had several annual inspections since the logs went AWOL. The A&P-IA was obligated to ensure the plane was in compliance with all ADs before signing it off as airworthy. How did he do that, and what did he write in the logs?

Don’t move forward without seeing evidence of compliance with all ADs.

What prompted the engine overhaul? It’s suspicious that the overhaul was the same year the logs went missing. Makes me wonder whether there might have been an accident that necessitated the OH.

Personally, I’d walk away unless there’s a very large discount. You want to sell this thing in a couple of years and you might have a really tough time finding a buyer. If you get stuck with keeping the plane for a long while, how much money are you comfortable with having tied up? Don’t pay more than that amount.
 
As the owner of a 1966 Cherokee 180C who absolutely loves his aircraft: run. Don't look back. As a first-time potential buyer, you'll have this weird sense of urgency to commit to the sale so you don't "lose" the aircraft to someone buying it out from under you. Resist that. This isn't the airplane you want to be buying if you're planning to sell in a couple of years, especially at that price.

A few thoughts:

First, irrespective of what is legally required for records retention, I don't know of any reason that a modern aircraft owner wouldn't have all of their logs digitized. It's easy to do, secures the records against future loss, and is a way to make them easily available for annuals and prospective buyers. No records of any kind prior to 2021 raises my hackles.

Second, the loss of maintenance records isn't priced into this sale. The lack of logs is going to turn off a lot of potential buyers and will drive the price down when you want to sell. Apparently the current seller is hoping to pass that haircut on to you. And if the FAA puts out a wing spar AD that requires spar replacement unless there are logs regarding usage, you may end up with a paperweight. I seem to recall such a clause in a recent (or proposed) AD.

Third, you say that you are looking to own this for just a couple of years. Make sure you've done the math on this. The purchase price of an aircraft, especially an older aircraft, can rapidly become a dwindling percentage of the total cost of ownership. Once you factor in sales tax, maintenance (ready to replace that engine if something goes wrong?), annuals, and so forth, owning a plane is rarely less expensive than joining a club.

Finally, let me echo the comment(s) above that airplane ownership and being a pilot are two related but separate skillsets, each with a fairly steep and expensive learning curve. Of the two, my experience is that ownership has been by far the more complex and expensive of the two. Consider joining a club that allows you to assist with maintenance and the logistics of the aircraft. Finish your PPL there and buy the Mooney when you're sure you're ready for ownership.
 
Half Fast said:
How did he do that, and what did he write in the logs?
Click to expand...
You do realize that an AD review can be done without existing records and that quite a few mechanics will still perform their own review even though there are previous AD compliance records?
 
Bell206 said:
You do realize that an AD review can be done without existing records and that quite a few mechanics will still perform their own review even though there are previous AD compliance records?
Click to expand...

Yes, I do realize that. So what review/confirmation did the mechanic perform and what did he write in the logs? I would want to look at that.
 
Ferflies said:
Hey everyone,


I’m looking at a 1964 Piper Cherokee 180C as a first airplane to finish my PPL and let my brother train in. Eventually I want to upgrade to a Mooney, so this would be a 1–2 year ownership. The plane looks great, but all airframe logs before 2021 are missing.

Aircraft Details
  • TT: 2,930 hrs
  • Engine: Lycoming O-360-A3A
  • SMOH: ~210 hrs (2021 overhaul by Jewell Aviation)
  • Compressions: 78/78/76/77
  • Useful load: 1,026 lbs
  • Empty weight: 1,424 lbs
  • Annual: Fresh Oct 2025
  • IFR cert: done
  • Interior: 2021 leather
  • Paint: 1997 (8.5/10)
  • Price: $109,000
Avionics
  • Aspen EFD1000 E5
  • Avidyne IFD540 GPS/Comm
  • Avidyne AMX240 audio panel
  • Lynx NGT-9000D ADS-B
  • CGR-30 engine monitor
  • New metal panel + breakers
Big Issue
Listing says:
“Logs start in 2021… mechanics lost previous logs.”
Only receipts exist for pre-2021.

So the airframe history from 1964–2020 is undocumented.

My Questions:
  1. Would you buy a Cherokee 180 with 57 years of missing logs?
  2. How much does this hurt resale?
  3. Does the strong panel + fresh engine justify the $109k price, or should missing logs drop this into the $70k–$85k range?
  4. Anything specific to check on an early 180C if I move forward with a pre-buy?
Appreciate any experienced input. Trying to avoid a bad first purchase.
Click to expand...
A very thorough, I say again thorough, pre-buy should give you a good estimate of worth. Without that, I wouldn’t pay more than it is worth in pieces. The avionics, engine and prop would probably be easy to sell. Airframe parts not so much. There are airplane salvage companies that buy planes for salvage, can’t think of their names offhand.
 
luvflyin said:
A very thorough, I say again thorough, pre-buy should give you a good estimate of worth. Without that, I wouldn’t pay more than it is worth in pieces. The avionics, engine and prop would probably be easy to sell. Airframe parts not so much. There are airplane salvage companies that buy planes for salvage, can’t think of their names offhand.
Click to expand...

So the airplane in question is only worth salvage value?
 
as others have said, no logs does not bother me if the price is right. however, with a PA28 my view has changed a bit. with the wing spar SB and AD out there in an ever changing evaluation it could get interesting. there are a lot of us that think that a life limit and and expansion of the aircraft affected is coming. without log books to prove the hrs, if that does come about it could turn an aircraft into lawn art very quickly.
 
unsafervguy said:
as others have said, no logs does not bother me if the price is right. however, with a PA28 my view has changed a bit. with the wing spar SB and AD out there in an ever changing evaluation it could get interesting. there are a lot of us that think that a life limit and and expansion of the aircraft affected is coming. without log books to prove the hrs, if that does come about it could turn an aircraft into lawn art very quickly.
Click to expand...

But log books can be reconstructed through various means. And the FAA even gives a procedure for doing just that. Do we really need to see annual sign offs from 40 years ago telling us the airplane was inspected and lubricated? The FAA doesn't think so.

AD compliance records can be re-established as well.
 
Doc Holliday said:
But log books can be reconstructed through various means. And the FAA even gives a procedure for doing just that. Do we really need to see annual sign offs from 40 years ago telling us the airplane was inspected and lubricated? The FAA doesn't think so.

AD compliance records can be re-established as well.
Click to expand...
the point being, if they put a life limit on the wing spar, and i think they will, without written records its hard to prove the TIS of the life limited part.
 
Half Fast said:
So what review/confirmation did the mechanic perform and what did he write in the logs?
Click to expand...
Given it has been fresh annual, I would think a review/confirmation required for an annual along with an AD listing the owner would need to comply with 91.403 and 91.417. Or are you implying this was pencil-whipped annual due to the lack of mx records?
 
unsafervguy said:
the point being, if they put a life limit on the wing spar, and i think they will, without written records its hard to prove the TIS of the life limited part.
Click to expand...

Yea, but the way I read the OP, they have recreated and re-established TIS already.
 
Ferflies said:
Big Issue
Listing says:
“Logs start in 2021… mechanics lost previous logs.”
Only receipts exist for pre-2021.
Click to expand...
If nothing else, I'd want to hear the seller's story on how the mechanic "lost the logs."

It's not a headset, or a cowl plug, or some other widget that could plausibly get misplaced. It 57 years of critical paperwork for something they claim is worth six figures. It typically isn't just "lost" like a set of car keys.

**** happens, but saying the "mechanic lost the logs" is trying to dodge a critical issue with a little hand-waving.
 
fasteddie said:
**** happens, but saying the "mechanic lost the logs" is trying to dodge a critical issue with a little hand-waving.
Click to expand...

Not really. A disgruntled employee leaves the shop and several maintenance records quietly disappear, a not-so-bright employee is cleaning up and throws away records, a very disorganized mechanic misplaces the records then can't locate them, etc, etc.

But you are correct, it's worthwhile getting the story.
 
100k will go further than a 180C. IMO there is not much to be gained by 1-2 years of ownership in any plane, especially not this one.
 
Since it's an aviation question, the answer is, as always, "it depends"

Logs have value both in knowing the history and resale value. FWIW my Seneca had no logs when I bought it, and I'm pretty happy with I have.

The logs should have been recreated IAW AC_43-9C. It's a simple and clear reg. Compare what was done with the regulation, pretty easy really. This clearly explains what the new starting point is. It includes AD compliance, history of major repairs, STCs, total times etc. You'll need the documentation used to establish that or you'll have to document it yourself.

The purchase price and eventual resale value is based on what the market says it is. You can tell from this thread the universe of potential buyers is small and Econ 101 says that will drive the price down. The price listed doesn't seem appropriate IMHO, but the market is a funny thing.

The history is mostly, but not entirely, recoverable. Get the FAA CD and it'll have the ownership, major repair and STC history. You can spend some time reaching out and tracking down what's available. The 337s will have a shop/mechanic contact and you may be able to get some work orders and maybe some stickers. Records are not required to be kept from the before days and most will not be available, but some will. Some shops will not be cooperative and some will. It's a slog.

Was the engine overhauled after the logs were recreated and in the log? If so that helps a lot and makes the engine maybe OK. The overhaul may have some records that may help establish total time on the engine, which if it was the original engine validates the total time. I don't remember on the 180 but some engine ADs require disassembly to validate, the overhaul addresses that.

Flight aware will (for about $125) give you all the flight records going back to 2001. It's useful to see if the plane has been regularly flying and increase the confidence in its total hours and identify any extend down time.

Deep dive into accident records will show all reportable records. If they hid damage you might not find it and you will rely on your pre-buy to see if it is all correct. Proper repairs mitigate most damage (market price might still take a ding).

The lack of logs will forever impact the value, but the impact is reduced over time. If it's been flying for 4 years and has 4 annuals that helps a little, 20 years of annuals is better.

Very much a buyer beware situation.

Bottom line: It's quite a project and at that price I don't see it making sense for anybody. But for a new pilot, learning to fly, at a much lower price, and learning to own combined to make an interesting journey. Learning to fly and owning a project plane will be quite a handful, probably not advised for many.
 
unsafervguy said:
the point being, if they put a life limit on the wing spar, and i think they will, without written records its hard to prove the TIS of the life limited part.
Click to expand...
AC_43-9C explains how to do this. It takes some work but is pretty straight forward. It should have already been done if I read OP correctly.
 
Doc Holliday said:
But log books can be reconstructed through various means. And the FAA even gives a procedure for doing just that. Do we really need to see annual sign offs from 40 years ago telling us the airplane was inspected and lubricated? The FAA doesn't think so.

AD compliance records can be re-established as well.
Click to expand...

The number of "complete logs" "no damage history" planes I perform prebuys on with obvious prior gear-up repairs or other significant aiframe distress -- with nary a remark in the books -- tells me this is not enough to restore value. I agree with the idea that 40 years of chickenscratched log entries is not essential :D

There seem to be a lot of shady mofos out there who think NTSB 830 is a cocktail liqueur.
 
luvflyin said:
A very thorough, I say again thorough, pre-buy should give you a good estimate of worth. Without that, I wouldn’t pay more than it is worth in pieces. The avionics, engine and prop would probably be easy to sell. Airframe parts not so much. There are airplane salvage companies that buy planes for salvage, can’t think of their names offhand.
Click to expand...
Beegles, in Greeley, CO
 
schmookeeg said:
The number of "complete logs" "no damage history" planes I perform prebuys on with obvious prior gear-up repairs or other significant aiframe distress -- with nary a remark in the books -- tells me this is not enough to restore value. I agree with the idea that 40 years of chickenscratched log entries is not essential :D

There seem to be a lot of shady mofos out there who think NTSB 830 is a cocktail liqueur.
Click to expand...

Agreed.
 
I should add that some of the best info I got in recreating the logs and establishing TTIS was from the oil analysis labs. My Seneca had been getting regular oil samples before it was abandoned and they had 15 years of history that filled in a lot of gaps.

Also, it had been sold several times over the years and I was able to find archived ads with some data.
 
Bell206 said:
Given it has been fresh annual, I would think a review/confirmation required for an annual along with an AD listing the owner would need to comply with 91.403 and 91.417. Or are you implying this was pencil-whipped annual due to the lack of mx records?
Click to expand...

My trust factor is quite low.

I don’t know whether it was pencil whipped, but I have seen logs that just say “All ADs current” or “ADs complied with” or similar. If I can read back through 20 years of logs and find the entry where the AD work was performed, I might accept that, but such isn’t the case here.

Given the missing logs, I want to see a list, AD by AD, stating compliance and what the mechanic did. “Disassembled framitz and verified o-rings in compliance with ADxxxx” or “Inspected thingamabob, verified s/n 12345, ADyyyy is not applicable.”

It sounds like you’re assuming that data exits. I’m not. If I were considering the purchase, I would want to see it.
 
Half Fast said:
Given the missing logs, I want to see a list, AD by AD, stating compliance and what the mechanic did. “Disassembled framitz and verified o-rings in compliance with ADxxxx” or “Inspected thingamabob, verified s/n 12345, ADyyyy is not applicable.”
Click to expand...
Except the AD info you are asking for is regulatory for each AD and must be there for the October annual sign off and to satisfy the owners AD record responsibility. No previous or existing aircraft records required.

So again, it appears you are implying the annual is not proper due to the lack aircraft records by your comments. I just look at things differently based on my experiences with AD compliance on aircraft with missing mx records and see no issue.
 
Half Fast said:
Given the missing logs, I want to see a list, AD by AD, stating compliance and what the mechanic did. “Disassembled framitz and verified o-rings in compliance with ADxxxx” or “Inspected thingamabob, verified s/n 12345, ADyyyy is not applicable.”
Click to expand...
^^^ This always. The AdLog system provides a page for each AD sorted by one-time and recurring. Best investment of $43 ever.
 
Agree with most of the above, but would add that there's not much mention of two other factors - time and resale. How long would it take, in addition to money, to bring it back to a condition where you're comfortable flying it? That could be a year or more all by itself. Then you're stuck with renting a plane while you fix the one you bought, and at the end of all of it trying to convince someone else to buy the thing.

One possibility is that the logs were honestly lost, and that the airplane is fine other than the reduced capability to prove it's OK.

But another possibility is that it's so damaged, and the owner knows it, that they'd be willing to take almost nothing for it, because they know that even if free the amount of money required to fix it would exceed the price you'd get for it.

With the interior being replaced at the same time as the engine, I'd almost wonder if it was also painted. If it was painted, I'd be wondering about a lot more.

It's a pass. It's a card game with marked cards, where the owner is the one that marked the cards.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top