100LL Interruption?

Half Fast

Half Fast

Touchdown! Greaser!
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May 7, 2016
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Central Florida
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Half Fast
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KGIF
I just received this from the KGIF airport director:

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Anybody else running into this?
 

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Dixiebluesky said:
And so it begins.
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Nothing new. We had a fuel delivery at our airpark yesterday and the driver/owner of the fuel company mentioned it. It’s not the first time over the last several years that he said a tanker ship was delayed. Ships are the only way that 100LL is delivered to the distributors in Florida. Ship is late, fuel runs out.
 
ateamer said:
Nothing new. We had a fuel delivery at our airpark yesterday and the driver/owner of the fuel company mentioned it. It’s not the first time over the last several years that he said a tanker ship was delayed. Ships are the only way that 100LL is delivered to the distributors in Florida. Ship is late, fuel runs out.
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Be nice to have a 100ll plant in the US as we are the GA capt of the world
 
Roller said:
Oddly worded

So we have domestic 100LL or we are reliant on euro for it?

If the latter that no bueno
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We have domestic LL.

There were some hiccups during Covid. I somehow managed to go to two airports in a row without fuel once in 2021 or 2022. I was more diligent about checking beforehand after that...
 
flyingcheesehead said:
We have domestic LL.

There were some hiccups during Covid. I somehow managed to go to two airports in a row without fuel once in 2021 or 2022. I was more diligent about checking beforehand after that...
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Times Im glad my personal plane can burn auto fuel
 
Roller said:
Oddly worded

So we have domestic 100LL or we are reliant on euro for it?

If the latter that no bueno
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Tetraethyl lead (TEL) is only synthesized by UK-based Innospec. No other lab in the world is producing TEL. That means US-based sources are actually "assembling" avgas, using a foreign import as a key ingredient.
 
Roller said:
Oddly worded

So we have domestic 100LL or we are reliant on euro for it?

If the latter that no bueno
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Seems pretty clear. 100ll is for the most part produced here. TEL is not. But that doesn't mean the end product isn't produced here.
 
Roller said:
Nah

This is my industry

Don’t think I will
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Fantastic. What are you thinking going to say to them?

There's this incredibly toxic chemical that costs a fortune to start up production. Everyone wanted it gone 20 years ago.By all accounts it'll be gone within 5 years. In the meantime, can you force a private enterprise to spend a ton of money they'll never recover because some of the private aircraft training fleet can't fly without it?
 
Racerx said:
Fantastic. What are you thinking going to say to them?

There's this incredibly toxic chemical that costs a fortune to start up production. Everyone wanted it gone 20 years ago.By all accounts it'll be gone within 5 years. In the meantime, can you force a private enterprise to spend a ton of money they'll never recover because some of the private aircraft training fleet can't fly without it?
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I’ll say it’s been around forever and never hurt anyone, go use your energy to make your bed eat right and exercise


And it’s a TON of the fleet, want to talk to some folks in the industry who would be destroyed? I’ll post some links
 
Roller said:
I’ll say it’s been around forever and never hurt anyone, go use your energy to make your bed eat right and exercise


And it’s a TON of the fleet, want to talk to some folks in the industry who would be destroyed? I’ll post some links
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So we took lead out of auto gas and out of paint just cuz?

Save your effort. I know the studies. Lead is coming out regardless of how much kicking and screaming you do. And it'll be a good thing.

We're in the position were in because we drug our feet for 30 years.

Most of the fleet won't be destroyed. Most of the training fleet would have options. Whether it's mogas or 94 UL.
 
Racerx said:
So we took lead out of auto gas and out of paint just cuz?

Save your effort. I know the studies. Lead is coming out regardless of how much kicking and screaming you do. And it'll be a good thing.

We're in the position were in because we drug our feet for 30 years.

Most of the fleet won't be destroyed. Most of the training fleet would have options. Whether it's mogas or 94 UL.
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Just the facts sir

Show me how many people die directly provable from 100ll per year

Ill just be waiting here
 
Racerx said:
The effects of lead exposure isn't death. More neurological and developmental.
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Oh ok

So me the study that shows directly little Timmy became even dumber because a 172 flew over him?

As opposed to tons of charter, skydive, survey, training, glider tow, training, etc operations that would 100% be destroyed today if 100ll was destroyed
 
Racerx said:
We're in the position were in because we drug our feet for 30 years.

Most of the fleet won't be destroyed. Most of the training fleet would have options. Whether it's mogas or 94 UL.
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Agree 100%. This is a problem that was solved in the automotive and marine sectors four decades ago. The piston GA world never found a solution because there was never any motivation to find one. Now there is. GAMI 100UL is already available as a viable option, and they have the STC to prove it.

Maybe this will even provide the motivation to get a modern light GA piston engine design to market. It would be great to see something like the Adept Airmotive line make it to the certified world with some STCs. More diesel conversion choices would be nice, too. Options are good.
 
traumamed said:
Agree 100%. This is a problem that was solved in the automotive and marine sectors four decades ago. The piston GA world never found a solution because there was never any motivation to find one.
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That motivation you mention is MONEY.

For a little math exercise:

- Find out how much money was required to design those automobile engines to run on unleaded gas.
- Divide that number by the number of auto engines to be sold.
- Now divide that same number by the number of GA engines to be sold.

Would those two answers be anywhere in the same universe?
 
JOhnH said:
That motivation you mention is MONEY.

For a little math exercise:

- Find out how much money was required to design those automobile engines to run on unleaded gas.
- Divide that number by the number of auto engines to be sold.
- Now divide that same number by the number of GA engines to be sold.

Would those two answers be anywhere in the same universe?
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Isn’t it even more convoluted?

I mean for a large part of the training airframes there is already engine solution to run off unleaded. Most of the old engines in trainers can run off mogas.

It’s a specific subset which still need leaded.
 
SebIp said:
It’s a specific subset which still need leaded.
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Even that isn't necessarily true anymore. GAMI 100UL has the closest thing to a universal STC probably ever issued. It just needs wider distribution, but it's making progress. It is a bit more money, but that is offset by reduced frequency for oil changes and an overall reduction in maintenance cost by not having lead gumming everything up.
 
traumamed said:
Even that isn't necessarily true anymore. GAMI 100UL has the closest thing to a universal STC probably ever issued. It just needs wider distribution, but it's making progress. It is a bit more money, but that is offset by reduced frequency for oil changes and an overall reduction in maintenance cost by not having lead gumming everything up.
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But that offset is offset (and then some!) by a need to restore paint damaged by G100UL.
 
traumamed said:
Agree 100%. This is a problem that was solved in the automotive and marine sectors four decades ago. The piston GA world never found a solution because there was never any motivation to find one. Now there is. GAMI 100UL is already available as a viable option, and they have the STC to prove it.

Maybe this will even provide the motivation to get a modern light GA piston engine design to market. It would be great to see something like the Adept Airmotive line make it to the certified world with some STCs. More diesel conversion choices would be nice, too. Options are good.
Click to expand...

Gami is not a viable option, it has caused damage to aircraft plenty of photos of this online
 
traumamed said:
Or just don't spill it all over your wing maybe? And if you do, rinse it off?
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Any fuel that needs to be treated like that isn’t not remotely ready for prime time

Plus the bladders on the Barron

A college program that stopped using it

Good sized thread on it on beech talk

Basically if the gov doesn’t FORCE people to use it, it could never hack it in the free market based on its own merits and “value”
 
traumamed said:
I guess that the pump gas our cars run isn't ready for prime time then. (Spill it on your car's paint over and over and never wash it off and see what happens.)
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I have, it’s not remotely the same as what’s happened with the enviro fuel

IMG-5836.jpg



IMG-6919.jpg


“ … after two California owners reported issues with fuel leakage after putting GAMI's G100UL in the tanks. The fuel is available at three California airports.
Mooneys and many Pipers were not factory equipped with rubber bladders in their fuel tanks. They were formed in the structure of the wing and a sealant used to fill the voids and rivet holes in the metal. Many older Mooneys started leaking when 100LL was introduced and owners either installed bladders or had the tanks resealed with a "sloshing" treatment developed in response to the widespread problem.
One of the owners reported on mooneyspace.com that his tanks started leaking a week after he started using G100UL. Another said his tanks had been seeping (within manufacturers limits) but when he added G100UL the paint blistered in the areas affected by the seepage. GAMI founder George Braly told AVweb it's not clear what role, if any, the fuel is playing in the issues but he did say the formulation is different from 100LL, notably in its use of an aromatic chemical called Xylene to boost the octane and hence detonation resistance of the fuel. Aromatic amines are solvents, but Braly said in a detailed response to the posts it's the least aggressive of the octane-boosting chemicals. He also noted that the sealant in the tanks is likely decades old. "It lasts a long time but it doesn't last forever," he said.
Braly said the fuel has been exhaustively tested on sealants, seals and gaskets used in airplanes under the supervision of the FAA. He also said he's never seen it cause paint to peel. If spills are not cleaned up, it can cause a yellowish tan stain. Many of the responses to the thread on the forum said they were not having any problems with G100UL.”

Mooney Operators Report Leakage, Paint Issues After Using G100UL

General Aviation Modifications Inc. is inviting an operator of a wet-wing Mooney to visit Ada, Oklahoma, for a borescope inspection to assess the condition of
www.avweb.com www.avweb.com
 
Roller said:
I have, it’s not remotely the same as what’s happened with the enviro fuel

IMG-5836.jpg



IMG-6919.jpg


“ … after two California owners reported issues with fuel leakage after putting GAMI's G100UL in the tanks. The fuel is available at three California airports.
Mooneys and many Pipers were not factory equipped with rubber bladders in their fuel tanks. They were formed in the structure of the wing and a sealant used to fill the voids and rivet holes in the metal. Many older Mooneys started leaking when 100LL was introduced and owners either installed bladders or had the tanks resealed with a "sloshing" treatment developed in response to the widespread problem.
One of the owners reported on mooneyspace.com that his tanks started leaking a week after he started using G100UL. Another said his tanks had been seeping (within manufacturers limits) but when he added G100UL the paint blistered in the areas affected by the seepage. GAMI founder George Braly told AVweb it's not clear what role, if any, the fuel is playing in the issues but he did say the formulation is different from 100LL, notably in its use of an aromatic chemical called Xylene to boost the octane and hence detonation resistance of the fuel. Aromatic amines are solvents, but Braly said in a detailed response to the posts it's the least aggressive of the octane-boosting chemicals. He also noted that the sealant in the tanks is likely decades old. "It lasts a long time but it doesn't last forever," he said.
Braly said the fuel has been exhaustively tested on sealants, seals and gaskets used in airplanes under the supervision of the FAA. He also said he's never seen it cause paint to peel. If spills are not cleaned up, it can cause a yellowish tan stain. Many of the responses to the thread on the forum said they were not having any problems with G100UL.”

Mooney Operators Report Leakage, Paint Issues After Using G100UL

General Aviation Modifications Inc. is inviting an operator of a wet-wing Mooney to visit Ada, Oklahoma, for a borescope inspection to assess the condition of
www.avweb.com www.avweb.com
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Ok, so it's something to keep in mind if you have tanks that have not been re-sealed in 30 years. Beyond that, this is anecdotal data. One of the planes already had a known leak. If tanks with old sealant do end up showing a propensity to leak with GAMI 100UL (questionable but possible), then re-seal them with a compatible sealant, just like when 100LL came out and every Mooney ever started leaking.
 
traumamed said:
Ok, so it's something to keep in mind if you have tanks that have not been re-sealed in 30 years. Beyond that, this is anecdotal data. One of the planes already had a known leak. If tanks with old sealant do end up showing a propensity to leak with GAMI 100UL (questionable but possible), then re-seal them with a compatible sealant, just like when 100LL came out and every Mooney ever started leaking.
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It’s also called a PIREP

And that citabria covering and paint looks pretty new and nice… before the gami stuff bubbled it off
 
Roller said:
So me the study that shows directly little Timmy became even dumber because a 172 flew over him?
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Look around! :rofl:

Flat earth, faked moon landing, vaccines/5G, chemtrails... Americans seem to be dumber than ever these days, and we burn more 100LL than anybody. Not exactly "case closed" but it's definitely believable that lead has affected us! (Note that I don't think so either, but... Wow, there's a lot of stupid these days.)
 
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