10 Day Instrument

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Paveslave53, Feb 1, 2020.

  1. Paveslave53

    Paveslave53 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2019
    Messages:
    44
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Paveslave53
    I tried finding something in the search for this so I apologize if It’s a double post. I am thinking of doing the 10 day instrument course in Duluth MN. I have been flying my whole life and grew up in a FBO family. I never got an instrument rating and honestly just started logging time again last year in a log book. I went to flight safety last year and did my 10 day initial 208EX course but I’m the only one at my company without an instrument flight rating,it wasn’t a big deal the instructors and sim were amazing. It really got me thinking especially if I’m going to put a lot more time in the 208 If I should just do the 10 day. I understand how to fly approaches that’s literally what you do in the sim with failures for 16 flight hours after a week at flight safety. But that’s also in. G1000NXI, anyone can fly with a GFC700 and a FD. I am going to be doing a lot of cross country flying from Reno to Dallas this year and its a no brainer for the safety aspect alone.My aircraft does have an KAP140 but ehhhh its marginal at best compared to the new AP systems. So is it worth it do do a 10 day? Do you reallllly have the abilities after 10 days or is it just passing a check ride? Personal minimums aside I want to be confident in my ability’s if I had to go to 200 feet,and I’m just wondering if its worth the trip. I could get an instructor and do it little by little but I have already done that quite a bit. I have already taken my written, I have the requirements just trying to figure out the best way to do the Flight portion of the Instrument rating.
     
  2. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    3,562
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    The condensed course is fine if you continue instrument flying after completion. If you take a break you’ll forget most of the training
     
    Tantalum likes this.
  3. Paveslave53

    Paveslave53 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2019
    Messages:
    44
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Paveslave53
    I’ll prob continue quite a bit as much as I will be flying back to Texas quite a bit from Nevada.
     
  4. GBSoren

    GBSoren Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2015
    Messages:
    237
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    GBSoren
    Good Plane Living youtuber just did the 10 day accelerated IFR course in Cloquet MN. He has a series of youtube videos about it. Seems like it worked out well for him. I, on the other hand opted for the opposite, I completed my IFR with about a week left before my 2 yr written expired! If you have the time to commit, I'd do the accelerated course. Work and life drug mine out, but I got it done. So nice to have it! Good luck and have fun!
     
  5. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    6,546
    Location:
    Wichita, KS
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    I’d say that depends more on you than on whether you take 10 days or something longer.
     
  6. Jim_R

    Jim_R Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,341
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jim
    I'm a recreational pilot (~100 hrs/yr). I did the PIC accelerated course about a year after getting my PPL. I was a little nervous about using my ticket at first, I think mostly because I was a relatively new pilot anyway, and was a little timid because I didn't know what I didn't know, if you know what I mean. Doesn't sound like you'll have that problem, given your background and experience.

    8 years later, I figure I'm a pretty typical conscientious recreational IR pilot. I doubt there's much that differentiates me from a pilot who went through "traditional" IR training 8 years ago. I'm guessing any differences would have primarily been shortly after I got my ticket, but those differences would have begun to disappear as soon as I started getting some experience flying in actual weather (assuming the "traditional" student had, in fact, flown in actual IMC during training).

    Along those same lines, evaluating weather during preflight prep is something I felt uncertain about at first. I'm still no expert, but I've done lots of reading and taken some aviation weather seminars and with that plus experience/practice I have grown there quite a bit. Probably would have started out a little higher up the learning curve if I'd had opportunities to talk more about weather with an instructor over a period of months rather than days.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2020
    GrummanBear likes this.
  7. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,356
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ and Ensenada, Mexico
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    rgbeard
    Do the ten day. I believe it's what's appropriate for your situation.
     
    brien23 likes this.
  8. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    20,164
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Who insured you on a 208EX without a instrument rating?!

    Who hired you in a turbine without a instrument rating?!

    I knew it was a good pilots market right now, but daaaamn!
     
  9. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    6,356
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kritchlow
    I think the 10-day is fine. Like a PPL, the IR is a license to learn. Nobody will be perfect right away. The big requirement is keeping the airplane right-side-up.

    Actually even after years of flying low altitude IR, I found there was a lot to learn with high altitude stuff. Of course that was years ago, but things such as arrival descents/speeds can be tricky if unfamiliar.
     
  10. woodchucker

    woodchucker Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2014
    Messages:
    1,272
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    woodchucker
    My only concern is adapting to life under the hood. Maybe it’s an age thing but my ears continuously put me in a bank when I’m not. Still learning but I’m going the slow route. If you are a natural under the hood good on you. Every flight is like ... why is the plane pointing to the left?
     
  11. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2018
    Messages:
    2,976
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kenny Phillips
    There's an app, er, indicator, for that.
     
    Pugs likes this.
  12. Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)

    Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2006
    Messages:
    329
    Location:
    NE Illinois
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Terry
    @James331 he mentioned being from an aviation FBO family. I’m guessing they own the operation?
     
  13. woodchucker

    woodchucker Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2014
    Messages:
    1,272
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    woodchucker
    I know but it’s always off by a tick to the left. That’s what my brain says anyways.
     
  14. Paveslave53

    Paveslave53 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2019
    Messages:
    44
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Paveslave53
    I am the maintenance Manager not the PIC,The company I work for has a 208 that was given to us by another division. We do modifications all around the world. I’m not THE pilot for the aircraft but I have been doing a lot of 208 flying with our sub contractors during testing and getting the aircraft overseas as well as up to Kansas for tank installs. My CFI is also my Boss and is the Chief Pilot and we have been flying together for a while. He is confident in my ability’s to fly the 208 as am I.Not to come off arrogant but in the Sim they were not going to let me fly the approaches because I don’t have an IR, after the first day they allowed it,my instructor told me I flew better approaches than a lot of people with the rating. It’s a great aircraft and super easy to fly. I have also been working them for over a decade so systems wasn’t something I needed to learn. Before I started flying It I prob had a few hundred engine runs as we do them every 7 days If they don’t fly. I also had some time flying the 208 in Iraq in 2008. I had signed up to do the 10 day this summer but ended up deploying and was unable. So I re scheduled and it happened again. I now have a slot for April so 3rd time is a charm. I will also be flying with some G5s now so that is nice It sucks going from the NXI back to steam gauges. As a matter of fact going from the NXI to a legacy G1000 is interesting now. Spoiled I guess. I have been studying my butt off for a year already so I’m hoping the 10 day will work out. I did my high Performance endorsement in the 208.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2020
    James331 likes this.
  15. Paveslave53

    Paveslave53 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2019
    Messages:
    44
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Paveslave53
    FI
    My first time in actual IMC was leaving Witchita and your right I thought why is the airplane banking left but I stared at the g1000 and went hu.... I’m the one leaning.
     
    GrummanBear likes this.
  16. smv

    smv Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2019
    Messages:
    341
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    smv
    Not likely an age thing. I have had a "right lean" since Day 1 of hood time for my Private (early 30s). Being aware of it is half of the battle. By knowing that it will likely happen I was forced to make sure I pay very close attention to the instruments and not allow my right lean to influence anything. Worked well enough to get me through CFI-I/MEI.
     
  17. BrianNC

    BrianNC En-Route

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    2,512
    Location:
    Atlanta
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    BrianATL
    Accelerated is the only way to go IMO. I did a 14 day. @SbestCFII bas a 7 day in NC. I have a friend that did the PIC (Professional Instrument Courses) 10 day a year ago and recommends it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
    RDUPilot likes this.
  18. Pugs

    Pugs Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2018
    Messages:
    335
    Location:
    Maryland
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pugs
    I did mine over 4 months flying 2-3 times a week and really wish I had just gone and done the two week thing. I called a couple and they had pretty long waiting lists (longer than it took me to do it locally) so be aware some planning is needed.
     
    BrianNC likes this.
  19. smv

    smv Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2019
    Messages:
    341
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    smv
    There is a lot to be said for spreading the experience across multiple weather systems and seasons. Getting an instrument rating during a 10-day period in Arizona in June does not necessarily prepare one for the weather encountered in August in Kansas or Montana in December.
     
    AggieMike88 likes this.
  20. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2010
    Messages:
    17,841
    Location:
    Denton, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    Is that different that PIC? (Professional Instrument Courses)
     
  21. BrianNC

    BrianNC En-Route

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    2,512
    Location:
    Atlanta
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    BrianATL
    Sorry. That is what I meant. PIC (Professional Instrument Courses). I'll go back and edit my post.
     
  22. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2010
    Messages:
    17,841
    Location:
    Denton, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    I did the PIC course and chose Ron Levy** as my instructor. It was definitely many days of being at the receiving end of a firehose, but I learned a ton about how to be a good and safe instrument pilot. Most of the learning came from observing different good habits that Ron did and then incorporating them into my flying than all of the book learning.

    One "pro tip" I will repeat is to book more than just the minimum time. If the program is advertising 10 days to checkride, seriously consider adding 2, 3 or even 4 days. You WILL hit some sort of problem in the middle of your scheduled short time that will knock the schedule ash over teakettle: maintenance, weather below personal minimums, and worse, getting stuck on a learning plateau.

    Having the additional time helps to ease some of the "end of the mission" anxiety and "get it done in a hurry" pressure.

    While I don't have any direct comparison with other accelerated IFR courses (I do for the commercial), I can say that the PIC course is very well put together. If you can keep up with the firehose, you will learn a lot in a short amount of time.


    (**The old hands of PoA are familiar with Ron Levy and his personality. In person, he was all of that and the big bag of chips. But as an instructor he was very thorough and encouraging.)
     
    BrianNC likes this.
  23. YooperMooney

    YooperMooney Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2019
    Messages:
    51
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    YooperMooney
    What did PIC cost you? Did you use their aircraft or your own?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  24. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2010
    Messages:
    17,841
    Location:
    Denton, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    Used my airplane.

    Don’t remember the exact cost since it was 5-6 years ago. But somewhere in the 5 to 6 AMU range sounds right.

    I was also responsible for his airline ticket and hotel costs.

    @flyingron is another graduate of their program

    (AMU = Aviation Monetary Unit = $1,000)
     
  25. flyingron

    flyingron Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    17,670
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    If you don't continue to use it, you're going to lose it no matter how you learned it.

    I did PIC around 2005 and it was right around $5000 plus the expenses for the instructor. My airplane.
     
    Jim_R likes this.
  26. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    3,562
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot
    Yeah. No crap

    It is far more pronounced if condensed training is used.
     
  27. brien23

    brien23 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    May 31, 2005
    Messages:
    1,184
    Location:
    Oak Harbor
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brien
    After 50 years as a CFII the IR 10 day or 1 year either will get you good training. Is it worth it to get it over quick or draw it out, whatever works for you the end result should be the same. Times have changed GA aircraft are more capable than airlines were years ago, I expect they will be better as time goes by. Their is satisfaction descending through a cloud layer and breaking out on the GS, that is the same now as it was 50 years ago.
     
    Tarheelpilot likes this.
  28. N1120A

    N1120A Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Messages:
    1,173
    Location:
    AG5B MYF
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    N1120A
    In some ways, GA aircraft are more capable than even new airliners.
     
  29. simtech

    simtech En-Route

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2012
    Messages:
    2,715
    Location:
    mississippi
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Simtech
    I did a 10 Day course at American Flyers. It was tough, very tough, by day 3 I about dropped out. By day 4 it started to click, day 6 was a half day and day 10 I was finished. Every day was structured basically the same. 4 hours sim and academics, 1 hour lunch break, then 4 hours flying and debrief. Also every night I had about 2 to 3 hours of home work.

    It was intense but I got it finished instead of dragging it on. Once I got back home I grabbed my local instructor and we went IFR flying in the local area and found out I was pretty darn prepared and confident. During training we did a lot of IMC which was nice as well.

    I would do a 10 day again if I had too. Go for it!
     
    BrianNC likes this.
  30. David Megginson

    David Megginson Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2018
    Messages:
    267
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Canuck
    I don't think there's much value in an IFR course that's all done in VMC under the hood (which is nearly useless) or in a low-rent Redbird sim/FTD.

    If you can find at least 5-10 hours of actual IMC in a 10-day course, great; if not, then assume all the course did was cram you to pass a test for a paper qualification, and you'll have to go up and learn real instrument flying with an instructor later.
     
  31. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2008
    Messages:
    9,089
    Location:
    Colorado
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    murphey
    Unfortunately, suitable IMC in Colorado is rare. Either icing or Tstorms or VMC.
     
    David Megginson likes this.
  32. Pugs

    Pugs Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2018
    Messages:
    335
    Location:
    Maryland
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Pugs
    Same in the MidAtlantic over Jan-Mar when I did mine. I ended up with < 4hours of actual.
     
    David Megginson likes this.
  33. David Megginson

    David Megginson Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2018
    Messages:
    267
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Canuck
    Still, that's almost 4 hours more than a lot of IFR students (or even their instructors, sometimes).
     
  34. flyingron

    flyingron Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    17,670
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    I don't believe that for one second. It's a term used by the accelerated denigrators without any shred of educational theory or evidence.
    In practice, your average, fly once in a while instrument does NOT lay any special foundation and, in fact, just spends time reteaching things the student forgot between lessons.
     
    BrianNC likes this.
  35. Tarheelpilot

    Tarheelpilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    3,562
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Tarheelpilot

    I have recommended PIC instrument training to many people over the years. Typically very good training in my opinion. I also teach professionally in a condensed training program. Your assertion that I am denigrating condensed training is false. Furthermore the question was regarding condensed 10 day training or traditional training.

    this conversation is very dependent on the definition of traditional training. I define it to be structured training occurring on a weekly basis at minimum with a good instructor. You referenced a fly once in a while program... not sure I would even consider that to be training.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020
  36. YooperMooney

    YooperMooney Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2019
    Messages:
    51
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    YooperMooney
    There is some serious price delta between firms. I spoke with firm in my state yesterday and he said it’s $5k which includes the aircraft. He’s able to book me very soon. I call another and it’s $5k with my plane or $9.9 with theirs. Seems like most firms are really charging A LOT. I called Prairie and their message says they’re booked out until at least September 2020. These schools are inundated by foreigners. What a great time it is to own a flight school.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  37. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    889
    Location:
    Tombstone
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    Yea, I mean, look at the autoland function, the dual autopilots, the autobrake systems, the autothrottles that are available for GA airplanes. Not to mention the Cat II and Cat III capabilities. o_O
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020
    denverpilot likes this.
  38. Jim_R

    Jim_R Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,341
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jim
    This was not my experience. I had no qualms about venturing into benign clouds by myself after getting my ticket, despite not having had any actual IMC during my accelerated training. The value I received from the course was immediate: Widespread overcast conditions at 2000-3000' that would have discouraged me from XC flying due to being trapped down in hot, bumpy air were no longer impediments. I immediately started making trips that I would not have made before.

    Now, as I said earlier in this thread, my "weather savviness" may have been stunted, compared to "traditional" training where I might have had the opportunity to pick my CFII's brain about "what about *this* weather condition?" over and over again across multiple seasons so we could talk about summer squalls, pop up thunderstorms, stationary fronts, cold fronts, icing levels, etc., etc. You can't get that in 10 days, and I've had to develop that more slowly through reading, seminars, and experience over time (but not by "flying with an instructor later").
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020
  39. David Megginson

    David Megginson Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2018
    Messages:
    267
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Canuck
    I'm glad to hear that. I suspect it's not the case with all (most?) pilots, but it can work, just like sending WWII fighter pilots straight into cloud after making them throw up a few times in a Link trainer often worked.

    The challenge is that until you've been in actual for a few hours, you probably never have experienced full-fledged leans (they're rare with foggles, because of peripheral vision and sun/shadow clues on the panel), and it's a coin toss whether you'll be able to overcome them or not. In your case, you did, probably because you have a good scan and your brain is able to overpower balance signals from your body, but that's not always the case without a lot of practice, sadly.
     
  40. David Megginson

    David Megginson Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2018
    Messages:
    267
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Canuck
    Actually, that might not be the case: at least in Canada, the weather stuff is mostly theory for the written exam, aside from what you pick up by accident during training. I strongly recommend these books, which will fill in the blanks our training should have handled (whether it's 10 days or 10 months):

    RIchard Collins, Flying the Weather Map https://www.amazon.com/Flying-Weather-General-Aviation-Reading/dp/1560273194 (my second-favourite aviation book, after Stick and Rudder.)

    Robert Buck, Weather Flying https://www.amazon.com/Weather-Flyi...viation+weather&qid=1581203009&s=books&sr=1-5 (more theory and less practical than Collins, but the theory is much better and more-accessible than in typical ground-school training)
     
    Justin M likes this.