1 dead, 2 seriously injured in C172 crash at Newport News/Williamsburg International (KPHF)

steingar said:
Every time someone crashes someone else says the seat racks must've given way. I'm wondering that has in fact happened ever in the history of GA.
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Seats have slid back on the rails in several instances. I had it happen to me once in training, during a takeoff in a Tecnam P92, and my CFI had to take the controls until I got the seat slid forward and locked again. Had I been solo I probably would have crashed.

Refer to
https://aviationnewstalk.com/podcas...us-seat-rail-incidents-and-accidents-ga-news/
and
https://generalaviationnews.com/2018/03/16/failure-secure-seat-fatal/
and
https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...s-150-152-170-172-175-177-180-182-185-188-190
 
This seems to happen again and again, are people pulling the yoke so the C172 is slowing to ~40kts stall speed??!?

I went flying yesterday and on takeoff my numbers should be climbing at Vx 90 or Vy 100. I monitor the airspeed quite closely on takeoff and landing as I consider that as priority #1. My climb speeds usually I go around 80-90mph typically I’ll see 80 to get some altitude (otherwise I should stay in ground effect until reach Vx or Vy then climb?), I play around with it depending upon the situation. My stall speed is 69mph, I don’t think I’ve ever approached that, but I guess if I pulled up more then I would? Typically in stall practice the plane doesn’t stall right away but we are doing that slowly so wondering if those low altitude departure stalls come at you right away or what happens resulting in a crash?
 
It’s not just about stall speed - it’s configuration, it’s about wing loading (accelerated stalls), and it’s about staying coordinated. Pull up sharply enough, no flaps, without enough rudder, and you can get a 172 to do some awful things at higher than Vso. I imagine the plane hit the ditch and not the runway because it was uncoordinated and did at least an incipient spin.
 
Half Fast said:
Seats have slid back on the rails in several instances. I had it happen to me once in training, during a takeoff in a Tecnam P92, and my CFI had to take the controls until I got the seat slid forward and locked again. Had I been solo I probably would have crashed.

Refer to
https://aviationnewstalk.com/podcas...us-seat-rail-incidents-and-accidents-ga-news/
and
https://generalaviationnews.com/2018/03/16/failure-secure-seat-fatal/
and
https://www.federalregister.gov/doc...s-150-152-170-172-175-177-180-182-185-188-190
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I had a seat slide back right after run up and it was pretty scary to realize what would have happened during takeoff. I check my seat very closely now. Pretty sure seats sliding back are a very real cause of some accidents.
 
steingar said:
Every time someone crashes someone else says the seat racks must've given way. I'm wondering that has in fact happened ever in the history of GA.
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Yes.

Documented when it happened and the people lived.

Happened to my passenger on Sunday. Did not have the seat properly latched and slide back. He was not flying, and we were still on the runway.
 
steingar said:
Every time someone crashes someone else says the seat racks must've given way. I'm wondering that has in fact happened ever in the history of GA.
Click to expand...

YES...well not the racks exactly. the seat came off the tracks.
checking my logbook.....October 4, 1991, C-172N, N3564E at JGG runway 13
I was the pilot, doing T&G practice. Just a few flights after my PPL checkride. Flaring for landing as I recall, the seat tipped back and I was heading for the back seat fast. I managed to grab the glare shield with my left hand with my right on the yoke and lean forward enough to sort of teeter there to get it settled and stopped

The front two feet were sitting on top of the tracks...I had already flown that evening with an instructor getting my night checkout stepping up from the 152. Stopped and the instructor got out, I was going back up for some solo practice. I think what happened was the seat when slid full forward while I was getting in and set up came off the tracks and when I pushed back two or three clicks into position the feet slid on top of the rails instead of hooked into the rails.

Check your seats people.
 
I had my seat slide, then lock in on a 172 once. Startling to say the least.
 
John Spartan said:
:(. So that looked pretty aggressive? Too early and too steep?
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It appeared the instructor had but a few seconds to figure out what was going wrong and react to it ... hard to watch though!
 
Haven't read much, but I searched for the word "seat" and came up with 29 mentions so far [Edit: Of course that includes the quoted instances]. Searched for the word "trim" and found only one and that didn't mention the possibility of not resetting the trim to takeoff setting after the last landing. I detect tunnel vision in here.
 
dtuuri said:
Haven't read much, but I searched for the word "seat" and came up with 29 mentions so far [Edit: Of course that includes the quoted instances]. Searched for the word "trim" and found only one and that didn't mention the possibility of not resetting the trim to takeoff setting after the last landing. I detect tunnel vision in here.
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I've taken off many times without resetting the trim. Never crashed.
 
Flying Keys said:
It’s not just about stall speed - it’s configuration, it’s about wing loading (accelerated stalls), and it’s about staying coordinated. Pull up sharply enough, no flaps, without enough rudder, and you can get a 172 to do some awful things at higher than Vso. I imagine the plane hit the ditch and not the runway because it was uncoordinated and did at least an incipient spin.
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It's never about stall "speed", technically. It's about exceeding the critical angle of attack.
 
dtuuri said:
Searched for the word "trim" and found only one and that didn't mention the possibility of not resetting the trim to takeoff setting after the last landing. I detect tunnel vision in here.
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Pretty sure that in most small planes the pilot can easily overcome even full nose up trim without superhuman strength. A comedy of errors had me taking off with full nose down trim and while unexpected was easily overcome while I figured things out.

So I think we’re justified on putting out-of-trim pretty far down on our list of probable causes.
 
FastEddieB said:
Pretty sure that in most small planes the pilot can easily overcome even full nose up trim without superhuman strength. A comedy of errors had me taking off with full nose down trim and while unexpected was easily overcome while I figured things out.

So I think we’re justified on putting out-of-trim pretty far down on our list of probable causes.
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Agreed. I had a runaway nose up trim once and I was able to overcome it while I popped the breaker and got the plane trimmed manually. Nothing superhuman required, so I didn’t have to reveal my secret identity.
 
dtuuri said:
Haven't read much, but I searched for the word "seat" and came up with 29 mentions so far [Edit: Of course that includes the quoted instances]. Searched for the word "trim" and found only one and that didn't mention the possibility of not resetting the trim to takeoff setting after the last landing. I detect tunnel vision in here.
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We also haven’t talked about a possible full flap takeoff but that doesn’t mean anything. The seat conversation developed pretty naturally as a listed possibility then confirmation from many of how it’s a common problem. The most logical speculation on this one remains “pilot error” with the scenario being strong student makes mistake that physically weaker CFI cannot correct in a timely manner with a full size adult in the back seat adding to W&B complexity. It takes very little imagination to see the probability on this one.
 
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