1 dead, 2 seriously injured in C172 crash at Newport News/Williamsburg International (KPHF)

A very educated synopsis there by the journalist. <sigh>
 
Baked Potato said:
Next time I fly (not today due to those #&$% TFRs) I will have to remember that pulling too hard on the yoke may cause the engine to stall.
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Don't you know that the yoke controls speed and throttle controls altitude? I takeoff by pushing forward on the yoke until I hit 60 then push in the throttle to climb.

Many years ago I was playing human ballast in the back of a 172 on a stage check. The instructor wanted the student to get a feel for what the plane felt like loaded to gross weight. Kid proceeded to try to demonstrate a departure stall right after takeoff.
 
If you replaced the word "engine" with "wing," it would be fairly accurate. Certainly better than the made-up stuff we normally get from the media.

I can understand it. Sometimes at cruise, I look out at the wing and see the ground below. I think Bernoulli. I think Newton. I dismiss those thoughts and just think F.N. Magic.
 
RyanB said:
A very educated synopsis there by the journalist. <sigh>
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Don’t blame it on the reporter. The statement is in quotes and was provided with assistance from the FAA.

An investigation with State Police along with the assistance of the FAA revealed that "during take off a student pilot attempted to pull the craft up at too steep of an angle, causing the engine to stall in the air, in which the aircraft dove into, and crashed into the embankment/ditch."
 
Short story. I received a few hours of training from the brother of actress Jane Russell.

He told me "pull back on the yoke and the trees get smaller, push forward and they get bigger".

Funny how that stuck with me 40 years ago
 
I’ve been practicing building airspeed in ground effect, then climb. My runway is 6000’ so it works. But I’ve read online that altitude is more important than speed.
 
mandm said:
I’ve been practicing building airspeed in ground effect, then climb. My runway is 6000’ so it works. But I’ve read online that altitude is more important than speed.
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Yea. For most of the stuff we fly all the airspeed you can muster isn't going to get you a zoom climb to pattern alt (or a safe ejection envelope :D) Better to climb as you can for options.
 
Though drag is reduced in ground effect, what drag there is is increasing as the square of the velocity increase. So, to get the most altitude in a given time or distance, a stabilized climb at Vy or Vx as appropriate is generally your best bet.
 
flyingron said:
Don't you know that the yoke controls speed and throttle controls altitude? I takeoff by pushing forward on the yoke until I hit 60 then push in the throttle to climb.

Many years ago I was playing human ballast in the back of a 172 on a stage check. The instructor wanted the student to get a feel for what the plane felt like loaded to gross weight. Kid proceeded to try to demonstrate a departure stall right after takeoff.
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Yeah, one pilot I flew with regularly had the stall warning blaring on climb out. Claimed there was plenty of margin. I stopped flying with him.
 
Half Fast said:
Don’t blame it on the reporter. The statement is in quotes and was provided with assistance from the FAA.

An investigation with State Police along with the assistance of the FAA revealed that "during take off a student pilot attempted to pull the craft up at too steep of an angle, causing the engine to stall in the air, in which the aircraft dove into, and crashed into the embankment/ditch."
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so I read the article today, after it was updated…still wrong. I wonder what they fixed
 
Daleandee said:
Keep pulling back and they get big again ...
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Yeap, that makes it complete.

How to Fly

Push forward and the houses get bigger
Pull back and the houses get smaller
Pull back more and the houses getter BIGGER.
 
Pinecone said:
You mean you flew with him more than ONCE.
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Yeah. My airplane partner did this once and I came down on him. But this other guy I only flew with to be in the air, back when that was a thing to me. I have to look him up to see if he's still around.
 
Could be a stall spin,or the seat track may be a contributing factor. Hope the injured have a fast and complete recovery. RIP for the instructor.
 
mandm said:
I’ve been practicing building airspeed in ground effect, then climb. My runway is 6000’ so it works. But I’ve read online that altitude is more important than speed.
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For some planes that seems especially beneficial, like maybe the cherokee PA28-180. That plane does not do well on departure without extra airspeed before rotation, or like you mentioned treat it like a soft field departure.
 
I don't start my climb until I'm at Vx, I don't think ever, because why would you? And then pitch for the attitude that'll leave you at Vx. Anything slower than that reduces your ability to clear an obstacle, and it also reduces your margin for error in power loss, or for gusts. For some aircraft, Vx can be pretty steep, so sure, if you've got plenty of room then climb out faster and at a shallower angle.

I'm just speculating, but if someone wasn't used to short field technique, and they were trying to set pitch to Vx, by watching the airspeed, they could have set the angle too steep too quickly, and not been able to correct it. And that's not speculating, it's a guess.
 
I wonder if the guy locked up and she couldn't overpower him. It takes real effort to takeoff stall a 172.
 
Albany Tom said:
I don't start my climb until I'm at Vx, I don't think ever, because why would you? And then pitch for the attitude that'll leave you at Vx. Anything slower than that reduces your ability to clear an obstacle, and it also reduces your margin for error in power loss, or for gusts. For some aircraft, Vx can be pretty steep, so sure, if you've got plenty of room then climb out faster and at a shallower angle.

I'm just speculating, but if someone wasn't used to short field technique, and they were trying to set pitch to Vx, by watching the airspeed, they could have set the angle too steep too quickly, and not been able to correct it. And that's not speculating, it's a guess.
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book on the 172 I fly is 55 rotate but admittedly I don’t start to pull until 60. Vy is 73, Vx is 65. Clean stall is 50 knots. Useful load 883-910 depending. At full power Vx is reached very quickly after liftoff. I climb at Vy and we have that by 2/3 of the runway length or less.

Many factors to wonder about here. full tanks, two full size men, one dainty Swede and a student pilot who couldn’t be overpowered by his instructor to keep the nose down? Failure to apply full power? Engine failure? Fact is we have little but speculations at this point. It seems odd for two students to be aboard as a backseat student gets an essentially useless experience. My money is on the inability for the CFI to get the student to nose down after over rotate.
 
Ohhh, that explains it. My wife said her mother called today and worked very diligently at having her convince me to give up flight training. Her mother lives in Hampton. Now I see how she even heard of the incident.

Back in the 80's when I worked for the shipyard there I flew in and out of PHF a bunch. A whole bunch. Back before the "new" terminal was built I got to ride on the amazing Jetstream Super 31 (American Eagle) and equally fun Shorts 360 (USAir Express). Once they expanded the fun ended and everyone flew Dash 8's.
 
Well, what the heck. "It's got 4 seats. Aren't we supposed to carry four?"
"We've got plenty of margin....."
:(
 
John Spartan said:
It seems odd for two students to be aboard as a backseat student gets an essentially useless experience.
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I don't know why, but this practice seems more common at flight schools that deal in a lot of foreign students. They pair two students with one CFI. One student flies. The other sits in the back and observes. Then at some point they swap seats.
 
FastEddieB said:
Why?
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It’s just kind of developed that way. Watching the airspeed indicator trend up fast makes it so by the time I’m gently pulling back to rotate we’ve made it from 55 to 60. It’s more or less a split second to jump that extra 5 knots. Realistically I’m sure I’m applying pressure and feeling it rotate at 57-58 or just past. But I’m still verifying centerline, speed trend, then rotate, then positive climb at a good speed and angle. It’s a timely departure every time with lots of runway under us so it’s not particularly late. And when the wheels come off I’m climbing for altitude at Vy.

I don’t know about you but I’m not cocked and itching to yank the yoke back THAT quickly. It’s a pretty impressive 172 with great climb rate and a solid engine but it’s no F16. ;)
 
FastEddieB said:
Why?
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I’m the same. Plus 5 on takeoff and over the threshold on landing. What’s an extra 5 unless dealing with short fields? Some planes don’t rotate well at book speeds due to extra drag from age. We are flying 20+ year old planes. Some of us anyways.
 
Another possibility is it wasn't a takeoff, but rather a go around. If the pilot retracted flaps suddenly that 172 will lose lift and start sinking towards the ground. The instinct to pull back on the yoke is very strong as the ground is coming at you.
 
John Spartan said:
I don’t know about you but I’m not cocked and itching to yank the yoke back THAT quickly.
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I guess that’s where we differ. I do try to rotate at the recommended speed, conditions permitting, but it’s hardly a “yank”. It’s more just enough back pressure to ease the nose up to roughly climb attitude and letting the plane fly itself off when ready.

But stipulated that an extra 5 kts or so is not a big deal - I was just wondering about the motivation.
 
Depending on how well your airplane climbs, if you are trimmed for takeoff, it doesn’t take anything at all to lift off at rotation speed. If I want more ground roll, sometimes I have to push the nose forward to get past 55kts.
 
woodchucker said:
I’m the same. Plus 5 on takeoff and over the threshold on landing. What’s an extra 5 unless dealing with short fields? Some planes don’t rotate well at book speeds due to extra drag from age. We are flying 20+ year old planes. Some of us anyways.
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If not 40, 50, or 60 years old.

FastEddieB said:
I guess that’s where we differ. I do try to rotate at the recommended speed, conditions permitting, but it’s hardly a “yank”. It’s more just enough back pressure to ease the nose up to roughly climb attitude and letting the plane fly itself off when ready.

But stipulated that an extra 5 kts or so is not a big deal - I was just wondering about the motivation.
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hey, not by much. 5 knots at the most. Probably more like 3 if you are 100% bang on rotating at 55 like it’s spring loaded. ;)
 
Every time someone crashes someone else says the seat racks must've given way. I'm wondering that has in fact happened ever in the history of GA.
 
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