Filing and flying IFR without Instrument Rating

C

ConcernedPilot

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An individual that flies out of my airport commonly flies IFR (and IMC) without an instrument rating. I know this to be fact because he’s told me, and others and I’ve seen him depart solo into IFR conditions with a flight plan on file. He went to take his checkride a few weeks ago but didn’t pass, yet he’s still flying around without the rating. If I were to file a hotline complaint on him, is it likely that they’ll investigate and he could get certificate action?
 
More than likely.... perhaps reach out to your local non govt FAA Safety Team Rep first? FAASTeam, or speak to his instructor?
 
ConcernedPilot said:
An individual that flies out of my airport commonly flies IFR (and IMC) without an instrument rating. I know this to be fact because he’s told me, and others and I’ve seen him depart solo into IFR conditions with a flight plan on file. He went to take his checkride a few weeks ago but didn’t pass, yet he’s still flying around without the rating. If I were to file a hotline complaint on him, is it likely that they’ll investigate and he could get certificate action?
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First ask yourself if you're comfortable flying IFR with this guy in the same airspace.

They will almost certainly investigate further (if nothing else just to first verify that your claim valid). I would certainly hope that the FSDO would investigate further and do SOMETHING to keep him from being a danger to others. The check ride is there for a good reason. It protects those who were able to pass it and get certified.
 
hate to be flying IFR and run across someone who might be a danger in the clouds. . Would certainly hope that this is "remedied" somehow.
 
iu
 
When you file an IFR flight plan, one of the fields in the form is for the name of the PIC. It should be pretty easy for the FAA to obtain the flight plans filed for the tail number in question, verify that the named PIC is not instrument rated, and have a talk with him. It’s also possible that he is filing the flight plans with someone else’s name filled in, and then they would have to talk to that person to ask if he or she was in the plane for each of the suspicious flights.

I hope that you do turn the offending pilot in and they do investigate the situation. The clouds are dangerous enough without non-instrument-rated pilots lurking within.
 
I would mention it to his instructor and let them handle it for now.
 
I knew a non instrument-rated pilot who attempted a VFR flight in conditions that were marginal at best, and which even instrument-rated pilots were declining to fly in. When it became obvious that he could no longer remain VFR, and he had in fact already entered instrument conditions, he accepted an IFR clearance in spite of not having the rating, and ended up losing control of the airplane, killing himself and his family. :(
 
Palmpilot said:
I knew a non instrument-rated pilot who attempted a VFR flight in conditions that were marginal at best, and which even instrument-rated pilots were declining to fly in. When it became obvious that he could no longer remain VFR, and he had in fact already entered instrument conditions, he accepted an IFR clearance in spite of not having the rating, and ended up losing control of the airplane, killing himself and his family. :(
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That’s more lack of personal minimums, which is sad, but it’s something I think we all messed up on to some degree at one point.
 
Turning him into the FAA would not be where I would start with this I would talk to him saying there are pilots on the field that are aware he is not rated and they have mentioned turning him in to the FAA so he might think about not flying in IMC until he passes his check ride , the same conversation with his instructor would also be a good call , if he blows all of this off and continues to fly in the clouds then yes turn him in but I think it is better to do it as a group , get the guys together and go to the FAA , if you do it as a individual your reputation around the airport will not be good anyway that’s my thoughts on it ,
 
just a question, are there any attorneys on board here , let’s say unrated pilot is flying in the clouds and has or causes a accident , are all of us who know or have know about this and not turned him in guilty of any offense, is there a legal obligation to turn someone in for a yet committed crime that you have knowledge of , if he crashed and killed my family and it came out that people at his airport knew he was doing this but said nothing can I sue them too , if so that puts a different light on this
 
tbroadhurst said:
Turning him into the FAA would not be where I would start with this I would talk to him saying there are pilots on the field that are aware he is not rated and they have mentioned turning him in to the FAA so he might think about not flying in IMC until he passes his check ride , the same conversation with his instructor would also be a good call , if he blows all of this off and continues to fly in the clouds then yes turn him in but I think it is better to do it as a group , get the guys together and go to the FAA , if you do it as a individual your reputation around the airport will not be good anyway that’s my thoughts on it ,
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I'm sorry this kind of attitude is just plain out exhausting. This "pilot" isn't owed anything ANYTHING. It's not even right to call him a pilot, he is a danger and a menace to people in the air and on the ground. Frankly his ticket should be taken his plane impounded and sold. A pilot I'm aware of similarly without a ME bought a twin did what he was going to do, and plowed himself (not too long later) into the side of a mountain. That makes many other people scared to fly, makes it harder to enjoy the hobby/pastime. One does not give a heads up to someone that you are going to "rat" them out. You just do it, you just have the guts to fill out the form and say, no thank you, You don't belong.

Seriously, this isn't I didn't do some minor paperwork crap, this is literally the kit and kaboodle of things that get people killed, regularly. Let me say this. Reporting a dangerous pilot improves one's reputation with the pilots where I'm at, covering for a menace makes me think you're a loser too.
 
tbroadhurst said:
just a question, are there any attorneys on board here , let’s say unrated pilot is flying in the clouds and has or causes a accident , are all of us who know or have know about this and not turned him in guilty of any offense, is there a legal obligation to turn someone in for a yet committed crime that you have knowledge of , if he crashed and killed my family and it came out that people at his airport knew he was doing this but said nothing can I sue them too , if so that puts a different light on this
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I am not an aviation lawyer, but generally there is no legal obligation to turn in anyway else. (Except in cases of like harboring a felon) That has nothing to do with moral responsibility. If you don't turn him in and he crashes his plane killing his young wife and a couple children, well you get to live with that on your conscience for the REST of your life, but you won't go to jail, nor would I expect that under current tort principles would you have your money taken away from you.
 
If I read the OP correctly, the “good news” seems to be the individual is on an IFR flight plan when IMC and therefore communicating with ATC, making him less dangerous than if he wasn’t on an active flight plan. That doesn’t make it right - just a tad safer.

That said, given that the person knows the rules and doesn’t choose to follow them, I doubt a conversation will do any good; the likely outcome is they’ll just be quieter about their ill-advised activities. The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior, as they say.

I personally think a hotline call is reasonable. The occasional rants on here about the FAA notwithstanding, my consistent experience with them has been that they want to educate rather than discipline whenever possible. I’ve heard of numerous examples to that effect and experienced one myself. If a call is made, it will be investigated. If education alone is warranted, I suspect that will happen. If further action is needed, that seems reasonable under the described circumstances, especially in the face of a failed checkride.
 
tbroadhurst said:
just a question, are there any attorneys on board here , let’s say unrated pilot is flying in the clouds and has or causes a accident , are all of us who know or have know about this and not turned him in guilty of any offense, is there a legal obligation to turn someone in for a yet committed crime that you have knowledge of , if he crashed and killed my family and it came out that people at his airport knew he was doing this but said nothing can I sue them too , if so that puts a different light on this
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Even without a legal obligation, how would you feel if you knew this was happening, did not report it, and it resulted in the death of innocent people?

I don't care about this moron, but he might take along unsuspecting passengers and kill them.

Report him NOW.
 
Pinecone said:
Even without a legal obligation, how would you feel if you knew this was happening, did not report it, and it resulted in the death of innocent people?

I don't care about this moron, but he might take along unsuspecting passengers and kill them.

Report him NOW.
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Best answer.

This specimen represents a deadly combination of Dunning-Kruger effect, arrogance, and bad judgment. An emergency revocation would not be too harsh, IMO.
 
On his next IFR flight the offending pilot kills himself and other innocent folks.

Would you be able to sleep at night.??
 
Pinecone said:
Even without a legal obligation, how would you feel if you knew this was happening, did not report it, and it resulted in the death of innocent people?

I don't care about this moron, but he might take along unsuspecting passengers and kill them.

Report him NOW.
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Totally agree with this post. IMHO Ego is one of the biggest killers in this business. The offender is on his way to being discussed on this forum, just in a different forum... Accidents/mishaps.
 
Hopefully he's flying a rental, easier to restrain and ground that person.
 
Interesting comment about me being a loser too i said talk to him and if he does continue to break the rules turn him in I have flown for the government, a police department, and been involved in aviation most of my life all the ratings and over 16000 hours I don’t think my thoughts on this matter make me a loser and really don’t appreciate you calling me one
 
gov98 said:
I'm sorry this kind of attitude is just plain out exhausting. This "pilot" isn't owed anything ANYTHING. It's not even right to call him a pilot, he is a danger and a menace to people in the air and on the ground. Frankly his ticket should be taken his plane impounded and sold. A pilot I'm aware of similarly without a ME bought a twin did what he was going to do, and plowed himself (not too long later) into the side of a mountain. That makes many other people scared to fly, makes it harder to enjoy the hobby/pastime. One does not give a heads up to someone that you are going to "rat" them out. You just do it, you just have the guts to fill out the form and say, no thank you, You don't belong.

Seriously, this isn't I didn't do some minor paperwork crap, this is literally the kit and kaboodle of things that get people killed, regularly. Let me say this. Reporting a dangerous pilot improves one's reputation with the pilots where I'm at, covering for a menace makes me think you're a loser too.
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Before you go calling someone a loser you may need to take some remedial training in reading comprehension. The guy you are calling a loser DID recommend turning him in, if he didn't respond to peer pressure.

i think you owe someone an apology because you are dead wrong about what the guy said. Read it again.
 
Wow! Always wondered if someone would do that. I guess it does happen after all. I’ll admit I struggled with my IFR ticket. At almost 60 nothing comes as easy as it once did. But the training served to drive home how serious flying in the goo is. It blows me away anyone would attempt a flight not rated and more importantly not prepared.

Glad you reported this meathead. Hope the gubermint takes action immediately. But you know which hand fills up quicker. Hope in one, poop in the other…

Stay safe out there!
 
As inclined as I generally am to give someone the benefit of the doubt or a second chance, there are things here that cause me to be disinclined to do so in this case:
ConcernedPilot said:
An individual that flies out of my airport commonly flies IFR (and IMC) without an instrument rating. I know this to be fact because he’s told me, and others and I’ve seen him depart solo into IFR conditions with a flight plan on file. He went to take his checkride a few weeks ago but didn’t pass, yet he’s still flying around without the rating.
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1. He has knowingly committed this violation more than once.
(Caveat: As a non-instrument rated pilot, he CAN file and fly in IMC as long as a CFI-I is on board. It sounds like he has been training for his IRA, so there is an outside chance that this is the case, but see concern #2)
2. He has been open about his obvious disregard for the rules.
3. He HAS attempted to become instrument-rated and has proven to the Examiner that he does not have the skills and/or knowledge necessary to obtain said rating.

With these thoughts in mind, I feel that the normal course of action (going and talking to him one-on-one or with a small group of concerned pilots) would most certainly fall on deaf ears. As much as I dislike it, I agree that this is the only course of action likely to yield any results.
 
tbroadhurst said:
just a question, are there any attorneys on board here , let’s say unrated pilot is flying in the clouds and has or causes a accident , are all of us who know or have know about this and not turned him in guilty of any offense, is there a legal obligation to turn someone in for a yet committed crime that you have knowledge of , if he crashed and killed my family and it came out that people at his airport knew he was doing this but said nothing can I sue them too , if so that puts a different light on this
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Generally, in the absence of a special reporting law (such as those requiring teachers and medical professionals to report suspected child abuse), there no requirement to report a crime.
 
Pinecone said:
Even without a legal obligation, how would you feel if you knew this was happening, did not report it, and it resulted in the death of innocent people?

I don't care about this moron, but he might take along unsuspecting passengers and kill them.

Report him NOW.
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I was the pathologist on a case three years ago that was exactly this. Seems every pilot on the field knew a guy was routinely filing and flying IFR without an IR. He would let the autopilot do the flying. Ended up killing himself, his wife, and his adult son.
 
Country Flier said:
I was the pathologist on a case three years ago that was exactly this. Seems every pilot on the field knew a guy was routinely filing and flying IFR without an IR. He would let the autopilot do the flying. Ended up killing himself, his wife, and his adult son.
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Was that the one in southern Michigan?
 
ConcernedPilot said:
An individual that flies out of my airport commonly flies IFR (and IMC) without an instrument rating. I know this to be fact because he’s told me, and others and I’ve seen him depart solo into IFR conditions with a flight plan on file. He went to take his checkride a few weeks ago but didn’t pass, yet he’s still flying around without the rating. If I were to file a hotline complaint on him, is it likely that they’ll investigate and he could get certificate action?
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Maybe just put a note on his wind shield stating “The next time you fly in IMC without a rating, you will be getting a call from the FAA. This is your only warning”.
 
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I got my instrument rating in the 1970s, logging half the required time on a primitive ATC simulator in a classroom with other trainees. One of the pilots had failed FOUR previous check rides and still continued to brag about his experiences flying solo in IMC. He seemed to think that it was perfectly OK. I expressed my concern to the course instructor, but at the time I didn't know what else to do.
 
Joepilotmsp said:
Wow! Always wondered if someone would do that. I guess it does happen after all.
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Worse are those who fly in IMC without an IFR clearance.

I was shooting some practice approaches at KLNS many years ago in actual IMC. IMC from about 1000 to over 4000. A Cherokee calls in wanting a practice approach into KLNS. He reports he is VFR in VMC at 3,500. I had just descened from 4000 to 3000 and it was solid IMVC.
And he accepts the "practice" approach and to maintain VFR.
 
Pinecone said:
Worse are those who fly in IMC without an IFR clearance.

I was shooting some practice approaches at KLNS many years ago in actual IMC. IMC from about 1000 to over 4000. A Cherokee calls in wanting a practice approach into KLNS. He reports he is VFR in VMC at 3,500. I had just descened from 4000 to 3000 and it was solid IMVC.
And he accepts the "practice" approach and to maintain VFR.
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For me the w/out a clearance is the line warrants making a phone call.
 
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Pinecone said:
Worse are those who fly in IMC without an IFR clearance.

I was shooting some practice approaches at KLNS many years ago in actual IMC. IMC from about 1000 to over 4000. A Cherokee calls in wanting a practice approach into KLNS. He reports he is VFR in VMC at 3,500. I had just descened from 4000 to 3000 and it was solid IMVC.
And he accepts the "practice" approach and to maintain VFR.
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A few months ago, I ran across an airplane that had to be IMC and not talking to center, they had their transponder and ADSB reporting the N#. We were at 8,000 and skimming the top of the overcast and saw them on ADSB climbing out of 5,500. Later Center called about traffic climbing out of 6,500 on our path. About when I was going to deviate for traffic, Center gave us a vector around traffic. I told Center that it was a solid overcast below us, I hope they reported the plane. The highest ceiling in that area was report at 1,000, most were around 500.
 
Plano Pilot said:
A few months ago, I ran across an airplane that had to be IMC and not talking to center, they had their transponder and ADSB reporting the N#. We were at 8,000 and skimming the top of the overcast and saw them on ADSB climbing out of 5,500. Later Center called about traffic climbing out of 6,500 on our path. About when I was going to deviate for traffic, Center gave us a vector around traffic. I told Center that it was a solid overcast below us, I hope they reported the plane. The highest ceiling in that area was report at 1,000, most were around 500.
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The FAA routinely requires 709 rides for people who forget one time to put the landing gear down, as if the experience of doing it plus the hassle of dealing with it (removing the plane from the runway, repairing damage, explaining to friends, family, and others what had you so distracted) isn't enough to remind you to use your checklist from then on. But it's the people who flout the regulations without immediate consequences who most need to be re-examined.
 
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