Why Can't I Understand Holding Patterns.....@#$%!

[MauleSkinner]

huh?

Exactly why they wouldn’t issue that.

 

[Kritchlow]

Exactly why they wouldn’t issue that.

You are not understanding what I am saying.
The 110 at 15 is the fix. You can hold northwest of the fix and still be on the 110 radial.

 

[saddletramp]

Sometimes we have to back to basics. I give a lot of flight reviews. One of my favorite things to do is have the pilot fly different courses to & from a VOR. Too often they get heading & radial mixed up. The radial only goes out from the station. When you're flying on a specified radial it doesn't matter what your airplane heading is...you're still on that radial. Remember we fly a heading not the left/right CDI needle.

 

[5QK]

In the op 1st post, where would the fix be if the clearance was hold northwest of ABC VOR 10 DME?

 

[MauleSkinner]

You are not understanding what I am saying.
The 110 at 15 is the fix. You can hold northwest of the fix and still be on the 110 radial.

But the radial in the holding clearance is from the fix. The fix may be defined by the 110 radial from the VOR, but if you’re holding northwest, it’s the 290 radial from the fix.

 

[MauleSkinner]

In the op 1st post, where would the fix be if the clearance was hold northwest of ABC VOR 10 DME?

That’s not a full holding clearance.

 

[Kritchlow]

But the radial in the holding clearance is from the fix. The fix may be defined by the 110 radial from the VOR, but if you’re holding northwest, it’s the 290 radial from the fix.

No… the radial in the clearance is from the VOR. That radial combined with the DME creates the holding fix.

 

[5QK]

I completely understand Mauleskinner. Kritchlow is a bit confusing.
I was thinking the fix was the VOR as was stated on diagram above.

 

[Kritchlow]

I completely understand Mauleskinner. Kritchlow is a bit confusing.
I was thinking the fix was the VOR as was stated on diagram above.

Look at aterpsters link above. It has a diagram that may clear it up.

 

[MauleSkinner]

No… the radial in the clearance is from the VOR. That radial combined with the DME creates the holding fix.

From the instrument procedures handbook, and I’m sure the verbiage is the same everywhere else…<my comments>

The holding instructions include the direction from the fix<northwest>, name of the fix<XYZ 110 radial, 15 DME>, course<290 radial>, leg length, if appropriate, direction of turns (if left turns are required), and the EFC time.

you’re not making the distinction between the radial for the name of the fix and the radial for the course.

 

[5QK]

I guess what I meant to say is, Where is the fix if NW was substituted for SE in original post?

 

[MauleSkinner]

I guess what I meant to say is, Where is the fix if NW was substituted for SE in original post?

The fix is still in the same place.

 

[Kritchlow]

I guess what I meant to say is, Where is the fix if NW was substituted for SE in original post?

The fix is in the same place. ABC vor radial 110 at 15 DME. That will not change.
Since there is 15 miles between the fix and the vor, you can hold on either side of the fix. NW, or SE.

 

[5QK]

Got it.
Where is the hold if clearance was NW in the OP? That's what is throwing me off. I'm trying to picture what Kritchlow means when he says it could be SE or NW

 

[Kritchlow]

Got it.
Where is the hold if clearance was NW in the OP?

On the northwest side of the fix.

Again, look at Aterpster’s article above. Link is in his post.

 

[sarangan]

I hate to sound like an old timer, but back in the old days we had to visualize all holds in our head, published or unpublished. Now with the magenta line and the airplane icon, you don't have to imagine anything, except with these unpublished holds. It is really straight forward. You just need to draw the magenta line in your head.

 

[Kritchlow]

@aterpster ‘s link

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/attachments/unchartedholding-pdf.113056/

 

[Walboy]

I'm going to have to agree with @Kritchlow on this one. The article @aterpster wrote is the way I have always understood it.

I'm looking forward to final resolution on this. It's incredible that two highly experienced pilots can have such a fundamental difference in interpretation.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I believe you are confusing two different things here.

Let’s back up to this…ok, I am confusing two things here…, but not the VOR and the fix, I’m confusing “of” and “on”, probably because neither was in @brcase ’s post, so I added the wrong one.

 

[5QK]

I think it's clicking.

 

[WDD]

Remember that when you're at the fix, the hold is "starting" and you turn. Remember also that inbound legs are always towards the fix.

In the OP's example, to be NW of the fix your inbound leg would be heading 110 (flying along radial 110). You would make a left hand turn when you first hit the fix / entered the hold, fly outbound parallel to the 110 radial heading 290, then turn left again to rejoin the 110 radial as you fly inbound back the fix.

To be SE, you would fly heading 290 along the 110 radial to the fix to start the hold. Turn left or right.

 

[Kritchlow]

Remember that when you're at the fix, the hold is "starting" and you turn. Remember also that inbound legs are always towards the fix.

In the OP's example, to be NW of the fix you'd have to fly left hand turns, and your inbound leg would be heading 110 (flying along radial 110).

To be NE of the fix you'd have to fly right hand hand turns, and your inbound leg would be flying heading 290 (on the 110 radial).

You can fly left or right patterns on either side of the fix.

 

[brcase]

If it’s on the NW side of the fix it will. That’s the only way to know which side of the fix to hold on.
Four possible quadrants. Need two pieces on info to determine which quadrant.
1) Direction from fix (NW etc…)
2) Direction of turn

you don’t really need to know the direction of the turn since right is standard. You only need to be told if they want nonstandard left turns.

brian

 

[brcase]

Remember that when you're at the fix, the hold is "starting" and you turn. Remember also that inbound legs are always towards the fix.

In the OP's example, to be NW of the fix your inbound leg would be heading 110 (flying along radial 110). You would make a left hand turn when you first hit the fix / entered the hold, fly outbound parallel to the 110 radial heading 290, then turn left again to rejoin the 110 radial as you fly inbound back the fix.

To be NE of the fix you'd have to fly right hand hand turns, and your inbound leg would be flying heading 290 (on the 110 radial).

Not quite, the quadrant only tells you which side of the fix the inbound leg is on. Since they did not specify left turns the inbound leg is 110 with right turns (hold NW) or 290 with right turns(hold SE), you are correct you always start the turn at the fix, you never fly directly way from the fix for the hold. With the exception Ps parallel and teardrop hold entries, but we don’t draw the entry until after we have drawn the holding pattern.

Brian

 

[midlifeflyer]

I hate to sound like an old timer, but back in the old days we had to visualize all holds in our head, published or unpublished. Now with the magenta line and the airplane icon, you don't have to imagine anything, except with these unpublished holds. It is really straight forward. You just need to draw the magenta line in your head.

You didn't have a pen and paper? I couldn't do the simplest hold until I realized I could draw the clearance which made its location and the entry easy.

 

[midlifeflyer]

All you need to know is they are going to give you a fix and the "inbound" leg. with the possiblity of non-standard turns. or designated leg length.

for your example
Fix = 110 Radial off the ABC VOR (the is the fix)
Inbound Leg = 110 Radial on the SE side of the fix.

So draw a point (the fix) then draw the line (110 Radial) then put an arrow on the inbound side pointing to the fix (SE side of the 110 Radial), then when cross the fix make a turn (right is standard since you didn't specify) Fly outbound then turn back to you inbound leg

View attachment 113055

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

I was going to do that and saw yours. Picture is perfect, but in your explanation,

Fix = a point 15 NM SE of ABC VOR on the 110 Radial off the ABC VOR (the is the fix)

 

[WDD]

You can fly left or right patterns on either side of the fix.

EDITED for clarity and typos. Not for accuracy, although I am changing what I wrote before, I'd never admit I wasn't completely right. So there.

I was curious enough that I emailed my old CFII, and I learned that for unpublished holds, there isn't a protected side in that you can have your outbound leg north of the radial. Learn something new everyday.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sure.

For me, I read the OP's situation as
1) There is a fix on radial 110
2) The fix is 15 miles from the VOR
3) Hold SE of that

To keep SE of that fix, you'd come from the SE and be on a 290 heading at the point you hit the fix and entered the hold.
You could turn left, or you could turn right. Given Right hand turns are the standard default, go ahead and turn right.

 

[eman1200]

…..
You'd have to turn left (if you turned right, you'd then be NE of the fix).

I believe this is incorrect.

 

[eman1200]

Hold SE

HOLD SE left turns

Hold NW

Hold NW left turns

 

[midlifeflyer]

Sure.

For me, I read the OP's situation as
1) There is a fix on radial 110
2) The fix is 15 miles from the VOR
3) Hold SE of that

To keep SE of that fix, you'd come from the SE and be on a 290 heading at the point you hit the fix and entered the hold.
You'd have to turn left (if you turned right, you'd then be NE of the fix).

No. @eman1200's drawings are correct.

"Hold southeast" always and only means the inbound leg is located to the southeast of the holding fix. This is the initial picture, no matter what else the holding clearance says.



 

[Kitch]

Thank you for all of the great responses.... and of course a question always leads to another question.....

Holding @ the 15 DME gives you 4 options of how the racetrack is flown. If you were to hold @ the ABC VOR on the 110 radial there is only 2 options L or R... correct ?

 

[TCABM]

I’ve found it easier to focus on the hold direction being the cardinal direction you will fly on the outbound leg/holding side. The direction of the turn determines which side of the inbound leg/nonholding side you will be since you turn inbound to the fix.

While I’m not a fan of Sheppard Air’s test prep, I think he does a good job of explaining holding patterns that aligns with aterpster’s article above.

https://shepair.com/stream/Holding_Video_2019web.mp4

 

[PaulS]

Thank you for all of the great responses.... and of course a question always leads to another question.....

Holding @ the 15 DME gives you 4 options of how the racetrack is flown. If you were to hold @ the ABC VOR on the 110 radial there is only 2 options L or R... correct ?

There should be no options, it should be clear, if not, ask. In your example here there is just one option.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Thank you for all of the great responses.... and of course a question always leads to another question.....

Holding @ the 15 DME gives you 4 options of how the racetrack is flown. If you were to hold @ the ABC VOR on the 110 radial there is only 2 options L or R... correct ?

Yes, except it's not your option, it's ATC's

 

[Kitch]

I wrote an article about that for ALPA in 1999:

Very well written Thank You for posting this.

There should be no options, it should be clear, if not, ask. In your example here there is just one option.

I should have worded that differently. There are 4 holding instructions you could get at 15 DME on 110, but on 2 holding instructions you could get at the VOR on 110 ?

 

[5QK]

This really got interesting.
Lots of input with very limited flaming. Almost forgot it is POA.

 

[TCABM]

Radial is irrelevant; the hold is anchored by a point in space, the fix.

 

[5QK]

Seems like the radial is extremely revelant for finding the fix. Could be wrong though. I'm still learning this stuff.

 

[TCABM]

Seems like the radial is extremely revelant for finding the fix. Could be wrong though. I'm still learning this stuff.

For finding the fix on a radial, yes; remember though a hold can be assigned based on a GPS waypoint, too. For determining what direction the hold will be it’s irrelevant.

 

[John Collins]

Draw the radial (110). Locate the holding fix on that radial (15 NM). There are two possible choices for the inbound leg along the radial to the fix (Northwest or Southeast). The hemispheric instruction (Southeast) defines which side of the fix is used for the inbound leg. So now you know the inbound direction used for navigation in the hold to the fix. If turns are not specified, the default is right turns, so inbound to the fix, turn right 180 degrees to the outbound leg, fly one minute, turn right to the inbound leg and navigate to the fix.

For the holding pattern entry, I always determine the outbound heading, because all turns getting into the pattern use the outbound heading one way or another. For a direct entry, simple turn right to outbound heading, time one minute, turn right again to intercept the inbound leg. For a parallel entry, turn left to the outbound heading, time one minute, make a second big (225 degree) left turn to intercept the inbound leg. For a teardrop, you have to do some math and the direction of the initial turn may be to the right, left, or straight ahead. Subtract 30 degrees from the outbound heading. Turn (left/right) if needed to that heading, time one minute, turn right 210 degrees to intercept the inbound leg.

If you can't visualize the entry, place your right thumb on your DG/HSI so your thumb covers the right side with the tip of your thumb at 70 degrees. If you mentally draw a line between the tip of your thumb through the center of the DG/HSI and the outbound heading falls between your thumb and your current heading, the entry is a tear drop. If the outbound heading falls on the opposite side of the DG between your current heading and the line extending from the tip of your thumb to the opposite side, then the entry is a parallel entry. Otherwise use a direct entry. This is called the right thumb method. For a hold with left hand turns, use left thumb on the left side and reverse all the entry plans.



So, after locating the holding pattern, I determine the outbound heading. I use right thumb for a RH pattern and left thumb for left hand pattern. A direct entry is two same direction of the pattern turns, one to outbound, one to inbound. A parallel entry is two opposite direction of the pattern turns, first to outbound, second (a big one) to inbound. Teardrop is usually the one that gets screwed up the most because you need to do the math and then the first turn may be right, left, or straight ahead. You cross the fix and turn if needed to the heading you calculated (right hand pattern outbound -30 or left hand pattern outbound +30), then turn in same direction of the pattern 210 degrees.