Teaching Flow vs. Checklist in GA

[WeekendWarrior]

I've recently started flying again with a CFII to tie up loose ends on my IR ticket. My new CFII is an industry veteran with many, many hours of 121 time behind him and a few industry administrative jobs as well. Previous CFIs have always been younger and building hours for their own ATPs.

New CFII has gotten onto me during every lesson for not running flows, only running checklists. I have never, in ~250 hours (not a lot, but substantial enough to develop primacy), flown with another CFI/I who encouraged using flows in trainer aircraft. It's always been checklist, checklist, checklist. I have the checklists committed to memory at this point, so primacy has me always just using that. I recall a few past CFIs who've actually discouraged using flows as a primary student, telling me along the lines of "save that for a jet job".

I'm not at all discounting flows, I see their value in any airplane, but I'm curious here if flows are something the CFIs of the world routinely teach at the primary level. Did my CFIs miss something, or should flows be taught once checklist proficiency is learned/demonstrated early on? Why or why not?

 

[MauleSkinner]

Flows and checklists are not mutually exclusive. One backs up the other.

unfortunately in the training world we are time constrained and procedurally oriented, and since the use of checklists is mandated, flows fall by the wayside.

 

[dmspilot]

The flows used by airlines are highly tuned, heavily practiced, and are designed specifically for a particular aircraft type. The airlines like flows because they increase the pilot's productivity (read: speed) and every minute a plane is on the ground it's not making money. They also aid in redundancy since most critical items on a checklist should have already been performed during the flow, that is, flows facilitate "do and verify" rather than "read and do".

By the time I hit the line at my airline I probably accumulated more clock time practicing and perfecting flows (between posters, mockups, GFS, sims, and IOE) than a new private pilot has in total flight time. For the typical GA pilot, who may fly a variety of different airplanes, and/or flies as much in a year as an airline pilot flies in a week, I don't think they are too useful. For a student I'd rather they spend any spare time reading and understanding the AFH, PHAK, and chair flying.

That said, sometimes we do things in GA training that are a lot like flows without actually calling them that. A demonstration of a stall is kind of a flow. We climb to a certain altitude, level off, do clearing turns, add carb heat, reduce the power, trim, extend flaps, and so on. All without reading a checklist.

 

[RobertGary1]

A real checklist is to “check” that you did something after the fact. What you’ve been doing sounds more like a “do” list. I’m a fan of flow followed by “check”.

 

[rhkennerly]

Isn’t flow more of a “call & response” tool for two pilots? One checking the other? When I recite a CIGAR check from memory, is that a flow or a checklist? And is GUMPS really sufficient when there are aircraft specific items that have to be set in a club or rental situation (gas on “both” OR “fullist” AND fuel pump “on”)?

If flow is so good, why is Sully Sulkenburger bringing airplane call & response checklists to Operating Suites in hospitals & ICUs across the nation?

 

[RobertGary1]

Isn’t flow more of a “call & response” tool for two pilots? One checking the other? When I recite a CIGAR check from memory, is that a flow or a checklist? And is GUMPS really sufficient when there are aircraft specific items that have to be set in a club or rental situation (gas on “both” OR “fullist” AND fuel pump “on”)?

If flow is so good, why is Sully Sulkenburger bringing airplane call & response checklists to Operating Suites in hospitals & ICUs across the nation?

Do your flow. Then use cigar to “check” that you didn’t miss something. It’s a double check process.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Isn’t flow more of a “call & response” tool for two pilots?

There is no "vs" between flow and checklist. A flow is simply a methodical system of moving across a panel to verify switches and controls are where they should be. "Call and response" is just a format for physical checklists. Basically, "Control........POSITION." How they are used may vary depending on single pilot or crew (and whether the checklist is electronic with audio or not).

But flow to set, checklist to verify is a system usable by all.

 

[David Megginson]

Flows are how you learn to do anything — fly a plane, play a song on guitar, cook a pizza, take a shower, or whatever. Whether you formalize them or not, they're there, but paying attention to and refining them makes you better at whatever you're doing.

For example, consciously thinking about improving my IFR flows has helped me integrate checking (and touching) my Heading/GPSS switch and my VLOC/GPS CDI mode into every configuration change when my autopilot is engaged, so I don't end up blindly following the magenta line when I think I'm set up for a heading vector or vice-versa.

A checklist is great for later, but when you're single pilot in IMC at 200 ft AGL starting a missed approach, it's not the time to pull one out.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Flows are how you learn to do anything — fly a plane, play a song on guitar, cook a pizza, take a shower, or whatever. Whether you formalize them or not, they're there, but paying attention to and refining them makes you better at whatever you're doing.

I like the way you said this.

I think it also applies to checklist use itself. As I've gotten older I've come to realize that the normal effects of aging require better and more consistent checklist use. It took a few years (I was as bad about it as many) but I have finally gotten to the stage where I feel uncomfortable if I don't pull out that checklist at some point to verify the flow. (No, not at 200 AGL on the missed )

 

[Johnvan]

I recently got back into GA when I bought my plane. I’ve been flying airlines for 15+ years.
I find doing a checklist as “read and do” very awkward. I’m surprised using flows followed by checklist verification isn’t the normal standard in GA.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Use the check list as suspenders…..do the flow then back it up with the check list.

 

[jordane93]

You never do a flow that isn’t backed up by a checklist. Do both or just do a read and do checklist. Whatever works best for you. I always did a read and do checklist until I started flying a Cirrus. They teach flows and then run the checklist.

 

[jordane93]

Isn’t flow more of a “call & response” tool for two pilots? One checking the other? When I recite a CIGAR check from memory, is that a flow or a checklist? And is GUMPS really sufficient when there are aircraft specific items that have to be set in a club or rental situation (gas on “both” OR “fullist” AND fuel pump “on”)?

If flow is so good, why is Sully Sulkenburger bringing airplane call & response checklists to Operating Suites in hospitals & ICUs across the nation?

No it’s the opposite. The checklist is used for a a cal and response. You do the flow then the CA or PF calls for the appropriate checklist.

 

[AndyMac]

Check out Jason Miller’s The Finer Points podcast (and YouTube channel.). For single pilot (especially GA without mandatory SOPs), he proposes (and teaches) that flows provide redundancy to checklists, and that it’s the only procedural redundancy we have.

At every change of phase of flight he runs a flow, and then a checklist to confirm he caught everything in the flow. It’s a hard sell, but he’s right. We don’t have anyone looking over our shoulders - we don’t have any systems monitoring to make sure we did a thing. Best we can do is do it all from memory, then double check from a checklist that we actually did it.

I can’t say I do this perfectly (or well, or sometimes at all) but as an IT professions (and de facto redundant systems “expert”) I see his point and appreciate it. $0.02.

He might discuss it in this one I think.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk mi

 

[RobertGary1]

I read an interesting article a year ago about the dangerous of checklists. Basically the skinny of it is that we have these mister checklists that hide the important items. A rote student in a 172 going through a 3 page fbo pre takeoff checklist is going to miss something important. As a cfi I see that often. After the checklist is run I’ll notice something missing and it becomes a task of the student looking to find where it was on the checklist.
Btw the faa term for the flow approach is “do verify”. The flow is the do the verify is the “checklist”. King schools refers to the alternate more common ga approach as a “do list” because you can’t “check” something you don’t already believe you’ve done.

 

[write-stuff]

I'd be interested in hearing the fuel management scheme that he says he "invented". The one I teach in simple two-tank aircraft is crank and taxi on one, runup and finish taxi on the other. Then, whichever side of the (analog) clock you're on, that's the tank you want to be using. That keeps your left and right tank switches in sync and it's easy to spot it if you miss one of the switches. Finally, whenever possible, try to do tank swaps within gliding distance of an airport.

 

[rhkennerly]

Bear with me. I do not believe that i am more dense than my fellow man. (Well, not much more dense.)

So ‘flow” is really about being methodical & doing everything the same way every time, like muscle memory?

But you learn flow by…?

* Sitting in front of a poster of the cockpit & running scenarios like “start up,” “pre-take-off” “cruise” & “landing,” or “engine failure on take-off” by rout, touching each “switch” or “valve” on the poster to develop muscle memory?

* Sitting in a chair & imagining each sequence & reaching out to flick imaginary switches?

* sitting on a pillow & meditating to sitar music until you reach flow?

So where does the actual checklist come into play?

also on a check ride or BFR, how is flow going to sit with the inspector? So

 

[RobertGary1]

I'd be interested in hearing the fuel management scheme that he says he "invented". The one I teach in simple two-tank aircraft is crank and taxi on one, runup and finish taxi on the other. Then, whichever side of the (analog) clock you're on, that's the tank you want to be using. That keeps your left and right tank switches in sync and it's easy to spot it if you miss one of the switches. Finally, whenever possible, try to do tank swaps within gliding distance of an airport.

Maybe just because I've flown some planes that limit take off or landings to the left tank I start with the left for 30 minutes. Then switch every 60. But I do insist students maintain a fuel log in the top left of their kneeboard recording the time the tank was switched and the number of gallons drawn from it with a current total in both tanks every 30 minutes. Basically the same type of stuff you do when flying jets and doing enroute fuel calculations.

-Robert

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Let me put this here….lol

 

[write-stuff]

also on a check ride or BFR, how is flow going to sit with the inspector? So

Bingo. The ACS specifically refers to checklist use, and at nearly every phase of flight. It's a good idea to have a discussion about this with a DPE before appearing at a checkride. Expectations vary.

 

[RobertGary1]

Bear with me. I do not believe that i am more dense than my fellow man. (Well, not much more dense.)

So ‘flow” is really about being methodical & doing everything the same way every time, like muscle memory?

But you learn flow by…?

* Sitting in front of a poster of the cockpit & running scenarios like “start up,” “pre-take-off” “cruise” & “landing,” or “engine failure on take-off” by rout, touching each “switch” or “valve” on the poster to develop muscle memory?

* Sitting in a chair & imagining each sequence & reaching out to flick imaginary switches?

* sitting on a pillow & meditating to sitar music until you reach flow?

So where does the actual checklist come into play?

also on a check ride or BFR, how is flow going to sit with the inspector? So

Flow is supposed to be a natural order. Left left to right, top to bottom, etc. Basically what you do in jets. You may start on the top of the electrical panel and move down, etc. Once you'd completed the flow you use the checklist to verify that everything is correct. Ideally nothing needs to be actually done during a checklist, just verified. During your checkride or BFR your instructor will love it because everything is checked twice instead of once.

-Robert

 

[RobertGary1]

Bingo. The ACS specifically refers to checklist use, and at nearly every phase of flight. It's a good idea to have a discussion about this with a DPE before appearing at a checkride. Expectations vary.

When I'm giving a company checkride I would be required to bust someone who forgot the checklist. But that is not related to using flow. Flow requires the use of a checklist to verify.

-robert

 

[midlifeflyer]

But you learn flow by…?

* Sitting in front of a poster of the cockpit & running scenarios like “start up,” “pre-take-off” “cruise” & “landing,” or “engine failure on take-off” by rout, touching each “switch” or “valve” on the poster to develop muscle memory?

* Sitting in a chair & imagining each sequence & reaching out to flick imaginary switches?

* sitting on a pillow & meditating to sitar music until you reach flow?

So where does the actual checklist come into play?

also on a check ride or BFR, how is flow going to sit with the inspector? So

It will sit GREAT with the inspector!

Generally speaking there are two ways pilot use flows. Generic and specific. Those who teach specific flows teach a different flow for each phase of flight. I don't use or teach that. I think trying to memorize a bunch of different flows is almost as bad as mnemonics.

A generic flow is one which you can use on all phases of flight. With only minor modifications, it can be used in multiple types of aircraft. Mine is a basic up-down; right-left. I don't know what you are flying so I don't know how complicated its is, but this is a basic flow on an A36 Bonanza. When I fly a DA 40, late model Archer, or Mooney Ovation, I add a left right for the overhead switches. But that's basically it.

 

[Clip4]

Did you ever stop to think the preflight inspection is set up as a flow checklist?

 

[MauleSkinner]

I do CIGAR TIPS as a pre-takeoff flow, with “ice, lights, transponder” as I’m pulling onto the runway…it’s not a left/right/top/bottom flow, but it gets things done so that the checklist IS a checklist.

 

[Johnvan]

So where does the actual checklist come into play?

The checklist will come after the flow but may be handled differently for each checklist.
For example, the captain will call “before start checklist “ while simultaneously doing his flow, this prompts the first officer to do their flow. Once the flows are complete the first officer will read the challenge part of the checklist and the captain will visually verify and give the appropriate response.
An after landing will be handled differently to reduce speaking at a critical phase. It may be triggered by a captain doing a specific action such as disarming spoilers. That action gives the first officer the signal to complete the flow. The checklist would be delayed until the taxi clearance is obtained and they are safely established on the taxi route. The first officer will silently read and verify the checklist and the only speaking in the entire sequence would be the first officer saying “after landing check complete “
The situations that would be more similar to GA are things that aren’t frequently done. Maybe configuring for de-icing or a ground air and cross bleed start for an inoperative APU. These are usually done with the first officer reading both the challenge and response and the captain completing the action.
Memory actions in an emergency aren’t quite flows. Each item needs to be verified by the other pilot before completion.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I do CIGAR TIPS as a pre-takeoff flow, with “ice, lights, transponder” as I’m pulling onto the runway…it’s not a left/right/top/bottom flow, but it gets things done so that the checklist IS a checklist.

Since I'm not a mnemonic fan, I don't use them (I couldn't even tell you what all of CIGARTIPS stands for without looking it up) but they do serve the same function as a phase-specific flow. They are in the "different strokes" department. We all process things differently.

 

[bluesideup]

Hi everyone.
I suggest that Flow vs POH checklists are / can be the same if you are in an environment that you can control, if not you Must use the manufacturer / FAA recommendations.
If you go for a Checkride make sure you know what the Examiner expects and when and if you are not sure Use the POH / Checklist.
After that, when you use your own plane, rent... you can create a FlowChecklist and use it, as long as you cover all the necessary items / elements. And there are the To Do lists, which are basically what the manufacturer prints and is the reason many examiners like because some may not be real familiar with the exact Make / Model of the acft you may be using and want to make sure that everything is covered.
Some pilots / Instructors are against Mnemonics, mainly because they do not cover some of the items required, but if you create one that can / will cover all they can be of help, at least better than nothing. Create your own, make a Checklist that includes them and make sure you use it. But, a big But, do not go for a ride with your Examiner, CFI /I.. for a Checkride, Review.. without one.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Since I'm not a mnemonic fan, I don't use them (I couldn't even tell you what all of CIGARTIPS stands for without looking it up) but they do serve the same function as a phase-specific flow. They are in the "different strokes" department. We all process things differently.

I’m not a mnemonic fan in general, primarily because there are too many to keep straight. I have a very few that I use, so I can keep them straight.

unfortunately I also have a few that I can’t seem to load shed…wanna know what’s on each hydraulic system of the Falcon 10?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Hi everyone.
I suggest that Flow vs POH checklists are / can be the same if you are in an environment that you can control, if not you Must use the manufacturer / FAA recommendations.
If you go for a Checkride make sure you know what the Examiner expects and when and if you are not sure Use the POH / Checklist.
After that, when you use your own plane, rent... you can create a FlowChecklist and use it, as long as you cover all the necessary items / elements. And there are the To Do lists, which are basically what the manufacturer prints and is the reason many examiners like because some may not be real familiar with the exact Make / Model of the acft you may be using and want to make sure that everything is covered.
Some pilots / Instructors are against Mnemonics, mainly because they do not cover some of the items required, but if you create one that can / will cover all they can be of help, at least better than nothing. Create your own, make a Checklist that includes them and make sure you use it. But, a big But, do not go for a ride with your Examiner, CFI /I.. for a Checkride, Review.. without one.

True. My personalized checklists are intended to take advantage of flow patterns.

But I disagree that one must use the manufacturer/FAA checklists for anything other than for an OpsSpec based operation. I don't think I've seen a flight school in the past 30+ years which did not customize their checklists or use a commercial-purchased one.

So, how many different manufacturer checklists do you feel you need to reference during that checkride? Every new avionics purchase has new checklists items. Do you flip back and forth among the one for the original-equipped airplane and all the ones for the new equipment which changed some of the entries? Or do you create a new one which incorporates the changes and, while you are at it, make it more usable? Here's the FAA's answer.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I’m not a mnemonic fan in general, primarily because there are too many to keep straight. I have a very few that I use, so I can keep them straight.

unfortunately I also have a few that I can’t seem to load shed…wanna know what’s on each hydraulic system of the Falcon 10?

Once you actually learn one it's hard to get rid of it.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

I guess I never really learned them. I can spout off a few of the acronyms but can’t remember what they are. Ttttttt, gumps, arrow, craft,….. oh and there are dozens more.

Once you actually learn one it's hard to get rid of it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I guess I never really learned them. I can spout off a few of the acronyms but can’t remember what they are. Ttttttt, gumps, arrow, craft,….. oh and there are dozens more.

To know them is to hate them

 

[AndyMac]

I'd be interested in hearing the fuel management scheme that he says he "invented". The one I teach in simple two-tank aircraft is crank and taxi on one, runup and finish taxi on the other. Then, whichever side of the (analog) clock you're on, that's the tank you want to be using. That keeps your left and right tank switches in sync and it's easy to spot it if you miss one of the switches. Finally, whenever possible, try to do tank swaps within gliding distance of an airport.

I like this a lot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AndyMac]

Bear with me. I do not believe that i am more dense than my fellow man. (Well, not much more dense.)

So ‘flow” is really about being methodical & doing everything the same way every time, like muscle memory?

But you learn flow by…?

* Sitting in front of a poster of the cockpit & running scenarios like “start up,” “pre-take-off” “cruise” & “landing,” or “engine failure on take-off” by rout, touching each “switch” or “valve” on the poster to develop muscle memory?

* Sitting in a chair & imagining each sequence & reaching out to flick imaginary switches?

* sitting on a pillow & meditating to sitar music until you reach flow?

So where does the actual checklist come into play?

also on a check ride or BFR, how is flow going to sit with the inspector? So

You execute the flow, then you go through the checklist to verify you got everything.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sarangan]

To know them is to hate them

I agree about the acronyms. First you have to unwrap the acronym, then attach an action to each word. Its more work than necessary..

I like the flow method when performing the checks, and then I verify against a written checklist to make sure nothing was missed. Following a written checklist one task at a time can make someone do things without really thinking.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Following a written checklist one task at a time can make someone do things without really thinking.

…or not do things because they’re not really thinking. I see that a lot.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I agree about the acronyms. First you have to unwrap the acronym, then attach an action to each word. Its more work than necessary..

To be fair, it is about the way people learn. Personally, I think there are only two aviation mnemonics worth a damn. But I also know many people whose brain works differently than mine and swear by (rather than at) them. They find them an incredibly useful tool with no difficulty remembering what each letter means. I have lists of the most common ones for teaching purposes. I try to avoid them but acknowledge they just might be the way to get a concept through.

 

[RobertGary1]

You execute the flow, then you go through the checklist to verify you got everything.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

To me that is the right answer. When people ask what an examiner will think I scratch my head because the examiner will be sitting there watching the flow pilot go through his checklist. The examiner may or may not notice the pilot is using a flow but I highly doubt he will care.

-Robert

 

[bflynn]

The trouble with flows in GA is changing to another airplane after the flow has replaced the checklist. For me, 100% of my time is in fixed wheel aircraft and 99.9% of it is in Pipers or something with a fuel injected engine. Checking gear and carb heat has never been part of any flow I've ever run. I really should have that checklist to make sure I catch these things, but I've learned not to.