Is your license real?

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

Final Approach
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Messages
9,034
Location
Near DC
Display Name
Display name:
Jaybird180
Of course it is. No one here would dare make a fake FAA Certificate, right?

It seems there are A LOT of guys and gals in other countries who are faking it. I don’t know if lying and bribery is the norm and it’s why there’s such a boom, but it got me thinking...

What safeguards do we have in place to prevent cheating on an FAA written? It’s been a long time since I’ve sat for one.

And it’s easy to inflate a logbook- a little smidge here, a little there or an imaginary flight that somehow made it into the logbook...Maybe, the fact that multiple people have to certify that a prospective candidate is ready is enough, but there are a LOT of people who claim they don’t do written tests well, and flying is expensive. Why do I not read much about this test phobia phenomenon in the pilot community? Or have I overlooked it? How often do logbook cheaters get caught? Not enough if you ask me.
 
Jaybird180 said:
What safeguards do we have in place to prevent cheating on an FAA written? It’s been a long time since I’ve sat for one.
Click to expand...

Numerous. You can't bring a cell phone or any kind of tablet or programmable calculator into the test. They don't strip search you, though... I believe they are able to monitor you by video cameras while you are taking the test. After the test, you are provided with a report with a test ID code on it. This code must be entered into IACRA when you go for your checkride, and it pulls the results from the FAA's server - so you can't just make up a fake test report and number. I suppose you could have someone else take the test for you, but they would need to have a fake ID to prove they're you, which is its own set of legal difficulties.

I am sure there are cheaters on the knowledge test, as there are on all tests. But I don't think it's very widespread.

Also, https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...cused-me-of-cheating-on-my-ir-written.124383/
 
Cheating here in the US and places like Europe (EASA), Canada, Japan, etc is far more difficult because their Civil Aviation Agencies have more stop gaps in place and rigid procedures.

To take a written requires ID. Yes, ID's can be faked. But once the written is passed, then there is a flight check, which requires an ID as well. Plus the flight check is held to a standard, so it's unlikely that bribing a DPE or Inspector is not going to happen.

Certificates can be forged. However, it's a fairly easy process to validate a certificate through the FAA, EASA, etc.

As far as inflating a logbook with experience? I'm sure that happens, but one can't pencil whip experience. Here in the US, make a logbook entry for time to be used to gain a certificate, and get caught will likely result in all certificates being revoked. The FAA takes a hard line against making fraudulent entries.

In the third world, yes it's easy in some countries to bribe officials or just make up fake certificates. Just keep that in mind before climbing in an airplane or an local airline.
 
Jaybird180 said:
And it’s easy to inflate a logbook- a little smidge here, a little there or an imaginary flight that somehow made it into the logbook...Maybe, the fact that multiple people have to certify that a prospective candidate is ready is enough, but there are a LOT of people who claim they don’t do written tests well, and flying is expensive. Why do I not read much about this test phobia phenomenon in the pilot community? Or have I overlooked it? How often do logbook cheaters get caught? Not enough if you ask me.
Click to expand...

Of course it's easy to fake a logbook - "P-51 time" is a decades-old term for exactly that type of time inflation. Really hard to find and catch minor fictions, but really not hard at all to uncover major fabrications - it's amazing what people think they can get away with, every so often you read about it here or in the aviation news.

I read about "test phobia" all the time here and elsewhere - people saying they're no good at taking tests, tips they can use, etc.
 
Not that I've tried it, but EVERY test I've had it would have been pretty trivial to cheat on given an inclination to do so. But the written is just a speed bump in the certification process. Of course, if you're going to have someone take the written for you, why not have them take the practical test as well.
 
As far as the Pakistani situation, I'm not sure what to think of it. Some of it is real, and then again I think some minister is over stating the extent of the cheating to further his agenda. I read where some guys were tagged as "cheating" because they took a test on the same day they logged hours - which simply means they took a test after they finished a leg of flight.

In so much that it is clear as mud, FAA had no choice but to put a ban on all until (if ever) it is sorted out.

So while we think the FAA has some quirks, I believe it is well ahead of whatever is going on over there.

I just feel sorry for the real pilots who are getting swept up in all of this through no fault of their own.
 
WDD said:
As far as the Pakistani situation, I'm not sure what to think of it. Some of it is real, and then again I think some minister is over stating the extent of the cheating to further his agenda. I read where some guys were tagged as "cheating" because they took a test on the same day they logged hours - which simply means they took a test after they finished a leg of flight.

In so much that it is clear as mud, FAA had no choice but to put a ban on all until (if ever) it is sorted out.

So while we think the FAA has some quirks, I believe it is well ahead of whatever is going on over there.

I just feel sorry for the real pilots who are getting swept up in all of this through no fault of their own.
Click to expand...

In Pakistan it's not to hard to bribe a CAA official to get a license. Also, since the system is lacking, it's not hard to find a counterfeiter to just produce a license.
 
India, Bangladesh, Pakistan - easy to get any certificate you want. i can get a medical degree sitting in US from Bihar, India if i wanted to. You just need to know the right people (I do, but never used them)
 
And there are those on the other side of the question. He and I flew together a bit at the same outfit. He had more certs and ratings than anybody I know. We fellow pilots questioned him about what he didn't have, and nobody could come up with any. He held all the airman certs, dual ATPs, A&P, CFI,CFII. He looked and dressed like a tramp, unshaved, uncombed. And thats the way he looked when he showed up at the test center for his latest. He got an unusually high score and testers were convinced that he cheated. Frisked him and ordered a retest. Got a higher score in less than an hour. I asked him "How do you do it? He said that he had a photographic memory. He was a walking encyclopedia & looked like a bum.
 
There have been some instances of certificate factories (real and just alleged). The FAA has no problem making people repeat checkrides if they think the examiner pencil whipped things. The FAA doesn't even need a reason to reexamine a pilot under 49 USC 44709.
 
flyingron said:
There have been some instances of certificate factories (real and just alleged). The FAA has no problem making people repeat checkrides if they think the examiner pencil whipped things. The FAA doesn't even need a reason to reexamine a pilot under 49 USC 44709.
Click to expand...

Not actually true. Read a bit further into the actual law.

49 U.S. Code § 44709. Amendments, modifications, suspensions, and revocations of certificates
(a) Reinspection and Reexamination.—
(1) In general.—
The Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration may reinspect at any time a civil aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, appliance, design organization, production certificate holder, air navigation facility, or air agency, or reexamine an airman holding a certificate issued under section 44703 of this title.
airman under paragraph (1) the Administrator shall provide to the airman—
(A) a reasonable basis, described in detail, for requesting the reexamination; and
(B) any information gathered by the Federal Aviation Administration, that the Administrator determines is appropriate to provide, such as the scope and nature of the requested reexamination, that formed the basis for that justification.
 
The way it’s done in the U.S. is, “I passed my checkride except for these two maneuvers. I went back, got 5 hours of training, and squeaked by on the retest.”

Applicants expect second (or third, but that’s more involved) attempt at maneuvers on a checkride. I’ve never heard of anybody demanding a second chance after they died in a plane crash.
 
P-51 time refers to the brand name Parker who make very nice pens.

we has a crash here a few years back. The pilot claimed to have like 70% of his thousands of hours as actual IFR. Turns out he just called any IFR flight actual. So yes, pilots can easily fudge logbooks but it will likely catch up.
 
The certificate card itself does not prove anything. Your name has to be in the FAA database. I found this out one time when I had to call the FAA about why my medical was not showing up on their database. This was a few years after the medical exam. It turns out the doc never faxed it over to FAA (this was before the days of MedXpress). The FAA lady told me that technically I have been flying without a medical, but said it can be easily fixed if I can contact the physician's office and get them to fax it again, and the original medical date will still stand. Since then, I diligently check my records at the FAA to make sure they have everything correct.
 
sarangan said:
The certificate card itself does not prove anything. Your name has to be in the FAA database. I found this out one time when I had to call the FAA about why my medical was not showing up on their database. This was a few years after the medical exam. It turns out the doc never faxed it over to FAA (this was before the days of MedXpress). The FAA lady told me that technically I have been flying without a medical, but said it can be easily fixed if I can contact the physician's office and get them to fax it again, and the original medical date will still stand. Since then, I diligently check my records at the FAA to make sure they have everything correct.
Click to expand...

If you selected the option not to have your record public, then the only proof to non federal types without special access is your plastic certificate.
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
If you selected the option not to have your record public, then the only proof to non federal types without special access is your plastic certificate.
Click to expand...

Where does one find that option? The only "privacy" options I have seen WRT to FAA certificates are "Do not use my SSN" and being able to Opt-Out of releasing your physical address.
 
smv said:
Where does one find that option? The only "privacy" options I have seen WRT to FAA certificates are "Do not use my SSN" and being able to Opt-Out of releasing your physical address.
Click to expand...

You’re right, it was just the address.
 
In the UK you've got to send your logbook into the CAA (and pay) before your new license is issued. Oh and we've only just got round to 'electronic writtens'
 
smv said:
Where does one find that option? The only "privacy" options I have seen WRT to FAA certificates are "Do not use my SSN" and being able to Opt-Out of releasing your physical address.
Click to expand...
The LAW says the FAA has to let you opt out of having any of your information released. The FAA intentionally violates this an only lets you opt out of having your mailing address disseminated. I've been trying for years. I never asked for my SSN to be removed. The FAA gratuitously did that without command.

However, even if the FAA suddenly would start obeying the law, it wouldn't make any difference here. A certificate holder has another way into the pilot database than the public FAA portal.
 
Initial Fix said:
P-51 time refers to the brand name Parker who make very nice pens.

we has a crash here a few years back. The pilot claimed to have like 70% of his thousands of hours as actual IFR. Turns out he just called any IFR flight actual. So yes, pilots can easily fudge logbooks but it will likely catch up.
Click to expand...
Not to spark a debate, but urban legend has it that this is one of the factors why airlines had a preference to military pilots. When you showed up with your green folder and hours printout there was a pretty good chance that that was a relatively true representation of your hours/flight experience. When I show up with a couple handwritten logbooks, it's hard to say if those 200 hours of cross country time was actually flown.

I have a good friend who is on the interview team for a luvly little airline in Texas, and he's turned down more than a handful of applicants (both military and civilian trained) because of discrepancies in their logbooks that the applicant couldn't adequately explain, or lied about on the application.

I had to take a sim ride for three of the four airlines I interviewed at. You would hope that that would be able to weed out people whose skills don't match the experience logged in their logbook, but you don't know. I don't think any airlines are doing a simulator as part of their interview processes anymore.
 
Unfortunately most airline hiring has been moved away from flight ops and into the hands of HR. No sim checks and very little hands on discussion from anyone with a pilot certificate.

HR is more concerned with checking boxes to meet a “hiring profile” and administering idiotic personality test.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Unfortunately most airline hiring has been moved away from flight ops and into the hands of HR. No sim checks and very little hands on discussion from anyone with a pilot certificate.

HR is more concerned with checking boxes to meet a “hiring profile” and administering idiotic personality test.
Click to expand...
I don't know if it's quite that drastic. Yes, HR is involved, but so is Flight Ops. At my airline, the face-to-face interview is still conducted by line Captains (or recently retired ones). We also give a written test that is like the ATP written on steroids, and also do an SBI (Situational Based Interview). The SBI is what has taken the place of the sim. I used to not like it, but more and more I see their reasoning. (Most) Anyone can fly the sim, the SBI is a decision-making evaluation. It's the Kobayashi Maru for airline pilots. You're made the Captain and given a situation with no real good options. You must gather information and use the resources available to you to make a decision in a short amount of time. It tests your CRM, leadership capability and time management skills. I'd say it's arguably a better evaluation of relevant skills than 30 minutes in a simulator is.
 
flyingron said:
There have been some instances of certificate factories (real and just alleged). The FAA has no problem making people repeat checkrides if they think the examiner pencil whipped things. The FAA doesn't even need a reason to reexamine a pilot under 49 USC 44709.
Click to expand...
Got an interesting one today. The FAA is using the 709 authority to reexamine pilots who were tested by Michael Puehler . Interesting thing is that this guy is no ordinary DPE. He actually works for the FAA.
 
Last edited:
flyingron said:
Got an interesting one today. The FAA is using the 709 authority to reexamine pilots who were tested by Michael Puehler (here in NC). Interesting thing is that this guy is no ordinary DPE. He actually works for the FAA.
Click to expand...
Sounds reminiscent of Harry Bishop in NJ back in 2012.

Harry was a FAA examiner who was taking "tips" for giving check rides. The FAA told him to stop. Twice. He didn't and eventually went to jail.

This gave quite a few pilots who had used him a couple grey hairs while they waiting to see if their ATPs were going to be voided (they were all flying at airlines). The FAA finally decided that the check rides were legal, it was just Bishop accepting the tips that was a no-no.

https://www.avweb.com/news/jail-time-for-faa-safety-inspector/
 
flyingron said:
Got an interesting one today. The FAA is using the 709 authority to reexamine pilots who were tested by Michael Puehler . Interesting thing is that this guy is no ordinary DPE. He actually works for the FAA.
Click to expand...

https://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=N 8900.555

He had worked for the FAA. No DPE's are actually employed by the FAA. :rolleyes: It's not uncommon for an ASI to become a DPE once leaving the agency.

The unusual part of this is they are going back into his time as an ASI.
 
Sluggo63 said:
I have a good friend who is on the interview team for a luvly little airline in Texas, and he's turned down more than a handful of applicants (both military and civilian trained) because of discrepancies in their logbooks that the applicant couldn't adequately explain, or lied about on the application.
Click to expand...

Well, a 767 went into mud near Houston a year ago because the FO lied about being sacked from previous jobs and they didn't dig it out.

That said, I was totaling a page in my logbook a year ago, when I noticed that total number of hours flown does not equal the number of day hours and night hours summed. Because I'm an obsessive idiot, I went back and bisected the logbook until I found the error.
 
zaitcev said:
Well, a 767 went into mud near Houston a year ago because the FO lied about being sacked from previous jobs and they didn't dig it out.

That said, I was totaling a page in my logbook a year ago, when I noticed that total number of hours flown does not equal the number of day hours and night hours summed. Because I'm an obsessive idiot, I went back and bisected the logbook until I found the error.
Click to expand...
Well, the plane that crashed wasn’t my friend’s airline, and who knows if even an interview would catch that guy’s lies. But it seems like that’s more like an HR issue and more so an FAA problem. PRIA needs more/sharper teeth to find these guys. I’m sure he’s not the only one out there.

More importantly... you track day and night hours? You’re the first person I’ve heard doing this. Don’t you just have “total time” and then “night time” and everything that isn’t night is day? You keep two separate columns for that?
 
I assume we're just talking about commercial since, really the private pilot end of things is effectively on the honor system. My certificate is real but it's not like anyone has ever looked at it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top