Nose wheel fairings

brien23

brien23

Cleared for Takeoff
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Brien
How is it legal to fly around without one or two wheel fairings, just what part of the maint. manual shows a C-172 without the nose wheel fairing and still have the other two fairings on. People need to fix the nose wheel shimmy, if you can't do that, find someone who knows how, it's not that hard. Piper aircraft have the same problem with people flying around with one or two fairings off. Just how many after taking them off do a weight and balance.
 
brien23 said:
How is it legal to fly around without one or two wheel fairings,
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Why would it be illegal? Provided the proper logbook/W&B entries were made. I don't believe wheel fairings are required equipment.
 
Wheel pants for my cherokee have been sitting on the back shelf in the hangar for 10 years. I have W&B for pants-on and pants-off ( reads just as silly as saying it )
 
murphey said:
Wheel pants for my cherokee have been sitting on the back shelf in the hangar for 10 years. I have W&B for pants-on and pants-off ( reads just as silly as saying it )
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And the difference between the two is marginal.
 
Whether something is required or not is in the Equipment List that should be with the weight and balance stuff. A lot of light airplanes never even came with wheelpants; they were an option.

Fixing nosewheel shimmy is not easy. Most mechanics will replace all the torque link bushings and bolts, and fool with the shimmy damper, but the root cause is dynamic wheel imbalance. A static balancer cannot fix that, and the wheel must be spun to determine where balance weights should be applied. I had to build my own balancer, and nosewheel shimmy completely went away, even with worn nosegear stuff, once that wheel was balanced properly. Some guys take their nosewheels to a motorcycle shop that has an appropriate balancer.
 
I address the Cessna 172/150, that said, the Cessna must be in accordance of the TCDS. no where does it say parts can removed and be airworthy.
you must have authorization by some method to operate otherwise.
Equipment:
FAA (QUOTE)
The basic required equipment as prescribed in the applicable airworthiness requirements (see Certification Basis) must be installed in the aircraft for certification.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Whether something is required or not is in the Equipment List that should be with the weight and balance stuff..
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actually it is on the TCDS. because the W&B changes for each model.

This data sheet which is part of Type Certificate No. 3A12 prescribes conditions and limitations under which the product for which the type certificate was issued meets the airworthiness requirements of the Federal Aviation Regulations.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Whether something is required or not is in the Equipment List that should be with the weight and balance stuff. A lot of light airplanes never even came with wheelpants; they were an option.

Fixing nosewheel shimmy is not easy. Most mechanics will replace all the torque link bushings and bolts, and fool with the shimmy damper, but the root cause is dynamic wheel imbalance. A static balancer cannot fix that, and the wheel must be spun to determine where balance weights should be applied. I had to build my own balancer, and nosewheel shimmy completely went away, even with worn nosegear stuff, once that wheel was balanced properly. Some guys take their nosewheels to a motorcycle shop that has an appropriate balancer.
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C-172 did not come form the factory with shimmy it happens over the years and worn out parts not the tire out of balance with some weights that could fall off and fod some other aircraft. If you can't fix it look for someone who can, their are lots of A&P who can, if your Mech. can't look for another.
 
Bell206 said:
Why would it be illegal? Provided the proper logbook/W&B entries were made. I don't believe wheel fairings are required equipment.
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It's not if they are required or not it's about only flying around with one or two missing. Someone did all the flight testing with all of them on to get certification for a C-172, where do you find the certification for one or two missing. Call your local FSDO and ask for a field approval to fly with one or two wheel fairings off.
 
brien23 said:
It's not if they are required or not it's about only flying around with one or two missing. Someone did all the flight testing with all of them on to get certification for a C-172, where do you find the certification for one or two missing. Call your local FSDO and ask for a field approval to fly with one or two wheel fairings off.
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It is all or nothing.
the TCDS says all must be installed, If you have authorization by some means to do otherwise.

This data sheet which is part of Type Certificate No. 3A12 prescribes conditions and limitations under which the product for which the type certificate was issued meets the airworthiness requirements of the Federal Aviation Regulations.
 
brien23 said:
C-172 did not come form the factory with shimmy it happens over the years and worn out parts not the tire out of balance with some weights that could fall off and fod some other aircraft. If you can't fix it look for someone who can, their are lots of A&P who can, if your Mech. can't look for another.
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No experience with fixing this stuff, then, huh?
 
brien23 said:
it's about only flying around with one or two missing.
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That simply falls to the person who removed the fairings as you state and their determination on whether the alteration (incomplete fairing removal) is a major or minor. Perhaps the next time you see one flying around with 2 fairings missing, track them down and see what reference they used?
 
brien23 said:
Call your local FSDO and ask for a field approval to fly with one or two wheel fairings off.
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What? You do NOT need to consult the FSDO to remove wheel fairings. Our A&P at the flight school did this all the time. Takes a matter of 20 minutes tops. We had a 172 that flew around without the main fairings and only the nose wheel fairing. Some without any wheel fairings. Other than an ugly looking airplane with only a single wheel fairing, it was nothing more than a W&B change.
 
Tom-D said:
the TCDS says all must be installed,
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Curious. Where does 3A12 state all the wheel fairings must be installed? The only reference I'm familiar with that even mentions wheel fairings is the aircraft Aircraft Equipment List?
 
brien23 said:
How is it legal to fly around without one or two wheel fairings, just what part of the maint. manual shows a C-172 without the nose wheel fairing and still have the other two fairings on. People need to fix the nose wheel shimmy, if you can't do that, find someone who knows how, it's not that hard. Piper aircraft have the same problem with people flying around with one or two fairings off. Just how many after taking them off do a weight and balance.
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What is your interest? Are you looking for a reference so that you can comfortably do this yourself?
 
Tom-D said:
It is all or nothing.
the TCDS says all must be installed, If you have authorization by some means to do otherwise.

This data sheet which is part of Type Certificate No. 3A12 prescribes conditions and limitations under which the product for which the type certificate was issued meets the airworthiness requirements of the Federal Aviation Regulations.
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The TCDS doesn't say that wheelpants must be installed. The TCDS will refer you to the certification basis for the airplane, and required equipment will be per CAR3 or FAR 23 or whatever. A Cessna 172M Skyhawk POH includes an equipment list includes everything that MIGHT have been installed when the airplane left the factory, and codes are used to indicate which were required for certification and which were standard to the model or were optional. Wheelpants for the Skyhawk are shown as Standard, which makes sense for the Skyhawk model which was a deluxe version of the straight 172, which had no wheelpants. Skyhawks had more instruments and radios and fancy paint and wheelpants. The items marked R are the things that MUST be installed all the time, things like the engine and prop and battery and pilot's seat and basic flight instruments and engine instruments and wheels and brakes. Wheelpants are not R items. The spinner on an M model IS an R item, since it's part of guiding cooling air smoothly into the cowl. The vacuum pump is an S item.

One can see it all here: http://www.centennialflyers.com/Patrick/1454u/1976-172M-POH.PDF

Scroll down to page 6-13, and rotate the page so you can read it.
 
There’s an acronym that comes to mind when reading this. MYOB
 
Bell206 said:
Curious. Where does 3A12 state all the wheel fairings must be installed? The only reference I'm familiar with that even mentions wheel fairings is the aircraft Aircraft Equipment List?
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look up the production certificate, aircraft must be fully equipped.
(21.137)
21.137 Quality system.
Each applicant for or holder of a production certificate must establish and describe in writing a quality system that ensures that each product and article conforms to its approved design and is in a condition for safe operation. This quality system must include:
Has any ever seen a 150/152/172/182 that was not included the fairings?
 
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Dan Thomas said:
The TCDS doesn't say that wheelpants must be installed. The TCDS will refer you to the certification basis for the airplane, and required equipment will be per CAR3 or FAR 23 or whatever. A Cessna 172M Skyhawk POH includes an equipment list includes everything that MIGHT have been installed when the airplane left the factory, and codes are used to indicate which were required for certification and which were standard to the model or were optional. Wheelpants for the Skyhawk are shown as Standard, which makes sense for the Skyhawk model which was a deluxe version of the straight 172, which had no wheelpants. Skyhawks had more instruments and radios and fancy paint and wheelpants. The items marked R are the things that MUST be installed all the time, things like the engine and prop and battery and pilot's seat and basic flight instruments and engine instruments and wheels and brakes. Wheelpants are not R items. The spinner on an M model IS an R item, since it's part of guiding cooling air smoothly into the cowl. The vacuum pump is an S item.

One can see it all here: http://www.centennialflyers.com/Patrick/1454u/1976-172M-POH.PDF

Scroll down to page 6-13, and rotate the page so you can read it.
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Centennial flyers is not a FAR or regulation.
all the C-172 are not "M" s
the model is the clue, some have the W&B and gives the Fairing weight, but when it does, it doesn't give the weight of one.
remember it was different prior to the M model. after this the pilots handbook is the W&B for aircraft. and that owners manual does not show fairings is a separate item.
 
Just remember, all Cessna's came from the factory. to remove them it requires paper work.
 
Tom-D said:
look up the production certificate, aircraft must be fully equipped.
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What does the Production Certificate have to do with the TC/TCDS? Two separate certificates: TC for design approval and PC for manufacture approval, i.e., production. However, back to my question: where in 3A12 does it state (as you mentioned in post 10) all the wheel fairing must be installed as it applies to the OPs post on only 1 or 2 fairings installed?
 
Doc Holliday said:
It’s called a maintenance record entry IAW 14 CFR Part 43 and a revision of the W&B. Nothing more.
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NO-- what gives you authorization to remove parts of a production certificate?
43.13 Performance rules (general).
(a) Each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, except as noted in §43.16. He shall use the tools, equipment, and test apparatus necessary to assure completion of the work in accordance with accepted industry practices. If special equipment or test apparatus is recommended by the manufacturer involved, he must use that equipment or apparatus or its equivalent acceptable to the Administrator.
 
Tom-D said:
NO-- what gives you authorization to remove parts of a production certificate?
43.13 Performance rules (general).
(a) Each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, except as noted in §43.16. He shall use the tools, equipment, and test apparatus necessary to assure completion of the work in accordance with accepted industry practices. If special equipment or test apparatus is recommended by the manufacturer involved, he must use that equipment or apparatus or its equivalent acceptable to the Administrator.
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Ok, please post the production certificate and show us the language it contains.
 
Bell206 said:
What does the Production Certificate have to do with the TC/TCDS? Two separate certificates: TC for design approval and PC for manufacture approval, i.e., production. However, back to my question: where in 3A12 does it state (as you mentioned in post 10) all the wheel fairing must be installed as it applies to the OPs post on only 1 or 2 fairings installed?
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simple, the aircraft must airworthy, REMEMBER?
 
Tom-D said:
NO-- what gives you authorization to remove parts of a production certificate?
43.13 Performance rules (general).
(a) Each person performing maintenance, alteration, or preventive maintenance on an aircraft, engine, propeller, or appliance shall use the methods, techniques, and practices prescribed in the current manufacturer's maintenance manual or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness prepared by its manufacturer, or other methods, techniques, and practices acceptable to the Administrator, except as noted in §43.16. He shall use the tools, equipment, and test apparatus necessary to assure completion of the work in accordance with accepted industry practices. If special equipment or test apparatus is recommended by the manufacturer involved, he must use that equipment or apparatus or its equivalent acceptable to the Administrator.
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Where in this regulation does it mention production certificate? And can you please post what the FAA uses as a production certificate, and the associated guidance? Thanks
 
Bell206 said:
What does the Production Certificate have to do with the TC/TCDS? Two separate certificates: TC for design approval and PC for manufacture approval, i.e., production. However, back to my question: where in 3A12 does it state (as you mentioned in post 10) all the wheel fairing must be installed as it applies to the OPs post on only 1 or 2 fairings installed?
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All components of an aircraft are required to be installed to comply with the Production certificate.
Thus, the TDCS must include all components .
unless they are noted in one of the Note of the TCDS
that is not just the 172 that is included all TDCS
 
Tom-D said:
All components of an aircraft are required to be installed to comply with the Production certificate.
Thus, the TDCS must include all components .
unless they are noted in one of the Note of the TCDS
that is not just the 172 that is included all TDCS
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Do you actually know what a Production Certificate is? Serious question.
 
Tom-D said:
Once more we get to know your value of POA
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Look Tom- you just got pretty much healed, right?

Why in the world do you want to subject yourself to this sort of stress again?

Put down the keyboard, and go do something relaxing- go camping or something.

But before you go, please back up your assertion.
 
Tom-D said:
All components of an aircraft are required to be installed to comply with the Production certificate.
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Tom-D said:
simple, the aircraft must airworthy, REMEMBER?
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Okay... answer me this: When you perform an Annual Inspection, do you verify all the aircraft components are installed per the Production Certificate prior to signing off the aircraft as airworthy?
 
Salty said:
You dumb bastards that have removed your cigarettes lighters and ashtrays are going to get violated. Tom is here to save you all.
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Given the nature of regulations, federal and local, it's quite likely that there are zero legal airplanes, cars, pilots, and drivers.
 
Bell206 said:
Okay... answer me this: When you perform an Annual Inspection, do you verify all the aircraft components are installed per the Production Certificate prior to signing off the aircraft as airworthy?
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This is not about what I do.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Given the nature of regulations, federal and local, it's quite likely that there are zero legal airplanes, cars, pilots, and drivers.
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how many aircraft could pass a compliance inspection with a nitpicker
 
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