Failed Pre-Buy Demo Flight- Pilot Wants to be Paid

Fearless Tower

Fearless Tower

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Fearless Tower
Looking for opinions on he I should handle this situation.

Background: I recently did a pre-buy on an airplane. We had agreed on a price based on advertised material condition and made arrangements for the pre-buy (my IA) and a demo flight.

Because of the nature of the aircraft (high performance warbird) and my low time in type (1.5 hrs) I had asked for and agreed to pay for a CFI to fly with me for the demo flight. Owners stipulation was I had to fly in the back seat and wouldn't be able to fly the takeoff or landing.

Day of the demo flight came and I was delayed getting to the airport due to airplane problems. I called before the scheduled meeting time and asked if they wanted to wait or reschedule for another day. They chose to wait.

Demo flight was an absolute joke. Intercom did not work at all and the demo pilot simply taxied out did a quick runup and took off without ever being able to talk to me. Then he tries to get me to take the airplane and fly with hand signals. After 30 seconds of touching the stick I sad this is BS and had to shout to him several times to take me back. Total flight time was probably 10 minutes...I don't think the engine ran 20 minutes.

We go ahead and proceed to the pre-buy....it was a basket case. I turned down the aircraft and got my deposit back.

Now, several days later, the broker emails me and asks me to send him a check..".payable to the broker. The demo pilot apparently wants $300 for the flight and having to wait for me. I'm kind of ****ed that I am even being asked to pay this guy for the experience, but the broker is insisting that it is the 'right thing to do'

So, recognizing that I am a bit ticked off/ emotional about how the demo flight was handled, I ask my fellow POA flyers- what is the right thing to do?

Further complicating things, the 'professional pilot' only has a third class medical, although he is a CFI. I don't think I can legally pay him for services as a demo pilot and he sure as hell didn't provide flight instruction.

Thoughts?




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You agreed to pay for the CFI, now pay.. It doesn't matter how bad the flight was. It was his time and troubles your paying for.
 
Tom-D said:
You agreed to pay for the CFI, now pay.. It doesn't matter how bad the flight was. It was his time and troubles your paying for.
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I disagree, if the plane was misrepresented and he'd made a good faith deposit based on the owners misrepresentation. The seller of the plane should pay, especially if the plane wasn't in a condition where OP could even discuss the flight with the CFI. Sounds to me like the seller was the one who wasted everyone's time. If the plane was reasonably represented but I had a change of heart or it "just didn't feel right" , I'd fork over the cash for CFI.
 
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Tough deal. Sorry to hear about it.

Was the CFI related in any way to the seller? If not, he probably lost half a day or more and was ready willing and able to do what he was hired to do. If something didn't work, why would that be an issue with him/her? What was the actual agreement? Did it stipulate if the plane didn't work properly no compensation would be paid or just that he would get paid to demo it without conditions?

Why wouldn't the seller provide the demo flight? That's what I've always done. I always wanted to see how the seller actually had handled the plane with particular attention to power management.

Hope you get it worked out.

Best,

Dave
 
bartmc said:
I disagree, if the plane was misrepresented and he'd made a good faith deposit based on the owners misrepresentation. The seller of the plane should pay, especially if the plane wasn't in a condition where OP could even discuss the flight with the CFI. Sounds to me like the seller was the one who wasted everyone's time. If the plane was reasonably represented but I had a change of heart or it "just didn't feel right" , I'd fork over the cash for CFI.
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what did the CFI have to do with the sale? other than to provide the ride?
 
Fearless Tower said:
Further complicating things, the 'professional pilot' only has a third class medical, although he is a CFI. I don't think I can legally pay him for services as a demo pilot and he sure as hell didn't provide flight instruction.
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He might be considered as acting in a sales capacity, and therefore effectively an aircraft salesman, in which case even a private pilot may accept compensation:

"§61.113 (f) A private pilot who is an aircraft salesman and who has at least 200 hours of logged flight time may demonstrate an aircraft in flight to a prospective buyer."
 
Tom-D said:
You agreed to pay for the CFI, now pay.. It doesn't matter how bad the flight was. It was his time and troubles your paying for.
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I could see that, and I could legally pay him as a CFI. Problem is, he didn't provide any flight instruction.....that is what is chapping my hide about this.

I did gladly pay my IA his full amount BTW!


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Jim Logajan said:
He might be considered as acting in a sales capacity, and therefore effectively an aircraft salesman, in which case even a private pilot may accept compensation:

"§61.113 (f) A private pilot who is an aircraft salesman and who has at least 200 hours of logged flight time may demonstrate an aircraft in flight to a prospective buyer."
Click to expand...

Not an aircraft salesman.


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Dave Siciliano said:
Was the CFI related in any way to the seller?

Why wouldn't the seller provide the demo flight? That's what I've always done. I always wanted to see how the seller actually had handled the plane with particular attention to power management.
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CFI is a friend of the seller.

Seller is like 85 and only flies the airplane with the friend aboard if you know what I mean.



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bartmc said:
I disagree, if the plane was misrepresented and he'd made a good faith deposit based on the owners misrepresentation. The seller of the plane should pay, especially if the plane wasn't in a condition where OP could even discuss the flight with the CFI. Sounds to me like the seller was the one who wasted everyone's time. If the plane was reasonably represented but I had a change of heart or it "just didn't feel right" , I'd fork over the cash for CFI.
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I don't think the seller or broker knowingly misrepresented the plane.

I do think the IA who has been signing off the annual for the last 15 years was 'misrepresenting' the condition though.

I guess what I am frustrated with is that I asked for and agreed to pay a CFI, but I do not feel that I got a CFI.

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Seems like 2 issues here. Issue one is the rate and time. $300 sound high for 20 minutes on the Hobbs. They agreed to wait for you. It's not clear the clock was running while they were.

Issue two was an aircraft not suitable for instruction. You made a reasonable assumption that it would be and it wasn't.

At the very least, the seller should negotiate a price that has some relevance to the actual flight time/instruction that you received. And then pay it himself since he did not supply an aircraft suitable for instruction.
 
Because of the nature of the aircraft (high performance warbird) and my low time in type (1.5 hrs) I had asked for and agreed to pay for a CFI to fly with me for the demo flight.
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If this is indeed the case; and you didnt leave out detail for the sake of brevity; and if you didn't ask for or agree to a price beforehand; then it's my opinion that you owe it.

Did you get screwed? Yes. But, in your words, "I had asked for and agreed to pay for a CFI"
 
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I think you owe the CFI for his time, and if you hadn't agreed on the rate/fee beforehand, then you should pay the money and treat it as a learning experience.
 
Although I don't doubt that you acted in good faith, it appears (to me anyway) that you were planning a combination demo-test-instruction flight in the plane, as opposed to the traditional "functional operation of aircraft and systems" that is normally associated with such flights.

When did you realize the intercom didn't work? When did the pilot know? Is it reasonable to assume the pilot thought the demo portion of the flight was the primary reason for doing it, and that the deal hinged on the evalution of the plane rather than the instruction? Is it also reasonable to assume that the pilot thought a warbird guy would know the typical hand signals and be able to fly as much as he wanted without an intercom?

The test flight is usually one of several determinants of the "yes/no" decision. Without the pilot's services, would you have been in position to make that call?

A good purchase agreement will spell out the conditions under which a test flight is conducted, including language such as "at buyer's expense and under seller's operational control."
 
What I got from your tale is that the CFI was there only to take off and land as you didn't have sufficient experience to satisfy all parties. 1.5 hrs as I recall. Well, the CFI did that. He took off and landed. So what's the problem?

Who was supposed to pay him if everything was great? That person should pay him now, IMO.
 
Pay $150.

Since you didn't agree on a price, it is still negotiable. ;)

If you were more than 30 mins late pay the $300. Their time waiting is worth something. It was your fault you were late regardless of the reason. Late is late.
 
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This is a bit of a tough deal, and it seems like these issues should've been worked out in the first place.

As a CFI, I charge for the amount of my time that the student monopolizes. Since most of my students are good folks and we spend a decent bit of time together, I'll charge from handshake to handshake (when we meet to when we part). Different charges come up for special situations. If I had 4 hours of my time monopolized when I was sitting around with a group in order to perform a test/demo flight, I would be charging for 4 hours. If I had warbird experience and was putting it to work, I might charge more - simply because that is hard to find.

Even if the test flight didn't occur but I had 3 hours of my time monopolized, I'd expect to be paid for it. Whether or not the seller was a friend of mine is rather irrelevant unless I am somehow participating in the sale. It is also rather irrelevant as to whether or not I provided instruction since really this is a demo flight for the purposes of a sale.

It sounds (from what you've said) as though the seller misrepresented the airplane. Alternately, there was a communication error and assumptions were made. Unless you can say this is definitively the fault of the person you flew with, then he is owed his money just as your IA was owed his for the work performed.

When I do demo flights, I skip most of the instructional aspects of the flight. The real purpose is to do functional checks (which I will point out), and to let the potential buyer try flying the airplane him or herself in order to see how the plane flies. There won't be much in the way of instruction.
 
wabower said:
it appears (to me anyway) that you were planning a combination demo-test-instruction flight in the plane, as opposed to the traditional "functional operation of aircraft and systems" that is normally associated with such flights.
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My idea of a demo flight is similar to yours - I want to know that everything works. Essentially demonstrate the aircraft - slow flight, stalls, steep turns. I want to get a feel as to whether the airplane is rigged properly and doesn't have any quirks other than those common to the type.

I asked for a CFI (and explained that to the broker) because I wanted to be able to count the dual toward the insurance requirement and that is where I feel I was stiffed per our agreement. This flight isn't even in my log (because there is no other way to log it other than as an observer).

As it turns out, the pre-buy alone would have made up my mind on the aircraft without the demo.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
It sounds (from what you've said) as though the seller misrepresented the airplane.
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As I mentioned earlier, I don't think the seller misrepresented the plane. I think he honestly believes the plane is sound.

The problem is that the IA who has been signing it off for 15 years is a pencil-whipper.
 
Fearless Tower said:
As it turns out, the pre-buy alone would have made up my mind on the aircraft without the demo.
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Personally, I'd do the demo before the pre-buy, simply because I'd expect the pre-buy to cost more. The demo might expose major faults faster.

As an example, I know someone who went down to Houston for a Commander demo flight. On the pre-flight inspection, he found $75k worth of necessary repairs. Then he saw that one of the oil coolers was broken and leaking profusely. As you might imagine, the demo flight never happened.

Fearless Tower said:
As I mentioned earlier, I don't think the seller misrepresented the plane. I think he honestly believes the plane is sound.

The problem is that the IA who has been signing it off for 15 years is a pencil-whipper.
Click to expand...

One thing I've noticed is that, while the regs are rather clear, different owners and different IAs seem to have significant latitude with what they consider to be acceptable. I've met some IAs who basically say that if a single rivet even shows signs that it isn't new, it's bad and must be replaced. I've seen others who've been on the opposite end, and let people fly with airplanes that are clearly not only unairworthy, but also unsafe.

When you find obvious, major issues (things like a broken engine mount), then the IA is a pencil-whipper or else blind.
 
Fearless Tower said:
As I mentioned earlier, I don't think the seller misrepresented the plane. I think he honestly believes the plane is sound.

The problem is that the IA who has been signing it off for 15 years is a pencil-whipper.
Click to expand...

One persons opinion, a broken intercom does not make the aircraft un airworthy.

The aircraft may not have been worth the asking price but unairworthy is a different matter.
 
Don't pay the pilot.

Pilots are a dime a dozen and are used to getting stiffed.

There is no honor in aviation, so rest easy.
 
Tom-D said:
One persons opinion, a broken intercom does not make the aircraft un airworthy.

The aircraft may not have been worth the asking price but unairworthy is a different matter.
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The intercom is not what I was referring to as far as un airworthy.

I'm talking serious (white powdery) corrosion in the tail that has obviously been there since before the last annual, ELT not installed properly, seat belts that are hanging on by threads, significant hydraulic leaks, tail wheel mods that are jury-rigged and not documented among other things.


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Sounds like the overall consensus is to pay him and suck it up. I suppose I will treat it as a learning experience. One thing though is that the experience has not left me with a good impression of aircraft brokers.


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Fearless Tower said:
I'm talking serious (white powdery) corrosion in the tail that has obviously been there since before the last annual, ELT not installed properly, seat belts that are hanging on by threads, significant hydraulic leaks, tail wheel mods that are jury-rigged and not documented among other things.
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If it was that bad why did you fly in it?

If it was safe to fly, why wasn't it airworthy?
 
Tom-D said:
If it was that bad why did you fly in it?

If it was safe to fly, why wasn't it airworthy?
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We did the demo flight before we opened it up.

I went after this plane because of the reputation of the IA who had been maintaining the airplane. I was rather surprised at what I saw.


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Fearless Tower said:
I could see that, and I could legally pay him as a CFI. Problem is, he didn't provide any flight instruction.....that is what is chapping my hide about this.
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Did you agree beforehand that the CFI was going to provide you with instruction? To me that would not fall within the scope of a "demo flight" for the purpose of selling an airplane.
 
Everskyward said:
Did you agree beforehand that the CFI was going to provide you with instruction? To me that would not fall within the scope of a "demo flight" for the purpose of selling an airplane.
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That is what I had asked for, for reasons I mentioned to Wayne.


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Fearless Tower said:
CFI is a friend of the seller.

Seller is like 85 and only flies the airplane with the friend aboard if you know what I mean.



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That alone is a red alert as to the condition of the airplane....

So you had a 0.2 ride in an unspecified warbird, and he wants $300. The owner caused a qualified guy to show up and to run the bird. What kind of warbird? Why don't you figure out what it's really worth and just pay that? It's not like you had a contract to buy or the like....
 
Fearless Tower said:
We go ahead and proceed to the pre-buy....it was a basket case. I turned down the aircraft and got my deposit back.

D
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Sorry to hear that. Sounds like you found another one of those cheap in and out type annual guys.

Like the old Midas commercial, "Pay me now or pay me later". What some owners fail to realize, if an average annual cost $1000 per inspection, and they go 10 years using the self proclaimed "expert" whose only tool is a pen, then if they want a real annual performed expect at least a $10,000 bill.

BTW, what kind of airplane?
 
RotorAndWing said:
Sorry to hear that. Sounds like you found another one of those cheap in and out type annual guys.

Like the old Midas commercial, "Pay me now or pay me later". What some owners fail to realize, if an average annual cost $1000 per inspection, and they go 10 years using the self proclaimed "expert" whose only tool is a pen, then if they want a real annual performed expect at least a $10,000 bill.

BTW, what kind of airplane?
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Another believer that repairing discrepancies is a portion of the inspection.

Show me that in FAR 43-D
 
No...if my opinion can count towards any of this...I say pay him and keep YOUR integrity. No one may ever know you made this all right but you will...thats the most important thing...

I would pay him in the presence of the broker and owner and anyone else I could find to listen...and in doing so make my point loud and clear about why I am payin and how unhappy you are about the situation...

Honestly, 300 bucks is cheap to be able to know that the airplane is misrepresented and not what you want...think of what it could have potentially cost you...

As far as the broker saying it is the "right thing to do"...what he really means is that he is not going to pay him so if you want a modicum of peace over this YOU will pay him...


Fearless Tower said:
Sounds like the overall consensus is to pay him and suck it up. I suppose I will treat it as a learning experience. One thing though is that the experience has not left me with a good impression of aircraft brokers.


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Click to expand...

Edit: Dr. Chien has a great point about the owner...
 
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Fearless Tower said:
That is what I had asked for, for reasons I mentioned to Wayne.
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So the broker didn't provide an appropriate CFI who could log dual for you? In that case I think it's at least partially the broker's responsibility. On the other hand, personally I would just pay the guy and chalk it up to "lessons learned". Next time it would be a good idea to go over what is going to happen on the demo flight before you ever take off. Of course I'm sure you know that by now.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Looking for opinions on he I should handle this situation.

Background: I recently did a pre-buy on an airplane. We had agreed on a price based on advertised material condition and made arrangements for the pre-buy (my IA) and a demo flight.

Because of the nature of the aircraft (high performance warbird) and my low time in type (1.5 hrs) I had asked for and agreed to pay for a CFI to fly with me for the demo flight. Owners stipulation was I had to fly in the back seat and wouldn't be able to fly the takeoff or landing.

Day of the demo flight came and I was delayed getting to the airport due to airplane problems. I called before the scheduled meeting time and asked if they wanted to wait or reschedule for another day. They chose to wait.

Demo flight was an absolute joke. Intercom did not work at all and the demo pilot simply taxied out did a quick runup and took off without ever being able to talk to me. Then he tries to get me to take the airplane and fly with hand signals. After 30 seconds of touching the stick I sad this is BS and had to shout to him several times to take me back. Total flight time was probably 10 minutes...I don't think the engine ran 20 minutes.

We go ahead and proceed to the pre-buy....it was a basket case. I turned down the aircraft and got my deposit back.

Now, several days later, the broker emails me and asks me to send him a check..".payable to the broker. The demo pilot apparently wants $300 for the flight and having to wait for me. I'm kind of ****ed that I am even being asked to pay this guy for the experience, but the broker is insisting that it is the 'right thing to do'

So, recognizing that I am a bit ticked off/ emotional about how the demo flight was handled, I ask my fellow POA flyers- what is the right thing to do?

Further complicating things, the 'professional pilot' only has a third class medical, although he is a CFI. I don't think I can legally pay him for services as a demo pilot and he sure as hell didn't provide flight instruction.

Thoughts?
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I would ask him if he thinks he'll win in small claims against misrepresentation and counter suit for your incurred expenses which were?
 
Henning said:
I would ask him if he thinks he'll win in small claims against misrepresentation and counter suit for your incurred expenses which were?
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Thanks, but I'm not concerned with the legal side....we never actually signed a purchase agreement (I had to kick it back a couple times because the broker kept screwing up the terms....increasing the price, changing the delivery terms...etc).

From a legal standpoint, I believe I owe nothing. But, my concern is doing what is right and since this is my first time dealing with a broker sold airplane, that's why I am asking here.


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Fearless Tower said:
Thanks, but I'm not concerned with the legal side....we never actually signed a purchase agreement (I had to kick it back a couple times because the broker kept screwing up the terms).

From a legal standpoint, I believe I owe nothing. But, my concern is doing what is right and since this is my first time dealing with a broker sold airplane, that's why I am asking here.


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Click to expand...

IMO, pay the pilot what you think is fair and move on.

You learned a lot with this experience. Don't dwell, learn and move on.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Thanks, but I'm not concerned with the legal side....we never actually signed a purchase agreement (I had to kick it back a couple times because the broker kept screwing up the terms....increasing the price, changing the delivery terms...etc).

From a legal standpoint, I believe I owe nothing. But, my concern is doing what is right and since this is my first time dealing with a broker sold airplane, that's why I am asking here.


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Click to expand...


I gave my opinion of what is right, you both walk away with your own expenses. He misrepresented you a product and completely botched his and the owners end of having a representable aircraft. If he want's to push the issue push back. I would short cut this with the question and statement above showing that you had in fact experienced the greater loss and were the aggrieved party. You're willing to drop it as is, he should be willing to do the same.

That is my point of view.
 
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