Why I hate fly-ins...

timwinters

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LTD
...or "Aviation 101: How NOT to run a fly-in"
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Prelude: First let me say that I am in no way ‘God's gift to aviating’ but I at least try to pay attention and follow the rules. Also, my “I hate fly-ins” statement isn’t referring to fly-ins like those organized by pilots’ forums, because people here (at at the other pilots' sites) tend to take their flying far more seriously than the average 'flying Joe'. What I’m talking about is the fly-ins held at local airports and that are marketed to (and open to) the flying public and the general public.
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So, I took Barney to a fly-in at Pocahontas, AR (M70) last Saturday. On the way down we landed at Poplar Bluff, MO (POF). I told him that I wanted him to see a landing at a ‘normal’ airport first, M70 may be a zoo when we arrive. After departing POF he got my standard “fly-in briefing”---that we’ll need to be especially careful and vigilant because fly-ins pose unique challenges; lot’s of traffic (help me look); draws lots of folks who don’t fly much and thus they may not follow the rules; that there may be NORDO traffic (help me look); and, in the case of this airfield, it’ll be a busy day without a full length parallel taxiway. Not good.

Upon our arrival we weren’t disappointed with either the level of excitement or incompetence.

After listening for a few minutes we make our first call at 10 miles out. The only response was from the local boys who are playing pseudo control tower and gave the winds and active runway. I ignored them.

Since we were arriving from the NE and the wind was out of the south my plan was to navigate to a point about 5 miles east of the field while descending to 1500’, and then turned due west abeam the 36 numbers (or just south of that point) to allow for standard 45* entry into a left downwind.

When I turned towards the field from 5 miles ESE, I made my five mile call. I got another response from the ‘local tower’ “this is Pocahontas Unicom, winds are 190 @ 6, we have two other inbound aircraft, you’re number three to land” (again, I ignored them…like they’re going to know about any NORDO traffic in the area). I got a response from an aircraft turning base to final (who had been giving position reports) and one who announced that they were on left downwind 18. It was the downwind aircraft’s first call and he included the obligatory ATITAPA. So we turned inbound, started our descent to TPA (1000’) and started looking for that aircraft (and others).

We continued towards the field looking for that aircraft but couldn’t find him. I’m now down to TPA and before I even turn 45* that aircraft passes directly over the top of me. He’s AT LEAST 500’ above me and flying a downwind leg AT LEAST 2 miles from the field. He apparently announced downwind when he was at least 3 to 4 miles south. It’s a straight tail 172.

So, I announced that I’m doing a 360 for separation, 2 miles ESE of the 36 numbers and add the comment “pattern altitude at Pocahontas is 1000’.” (sorry, I couldn’t help it). By this time an Ercoupe announces that they’re 3 miles WSW of the field on an extended crosswind (and that Ercoupe just happens to be a buddy of mine from Harrison, AR).

So, I do my 360, make visual contact with the Ercoupe, continue the 45 and then turn downwind about ¾ mile abeam the field. We re-establish visual with the 172. He’s still at least 500’ above us and flying a pattern that will give him a really nice tour of the four state area before he lands (the man literally flew a 3 mile or bigger pattern).

And, of course, pseudo tower is still providing guidance and instructions that I’m continuing to ignore because, again, they have no clue as to what NORDO traffic may be lurking about.

When I saw that the 172 was flying a 747 pattern I should have elected to exit the pattern, fly out east and enjoy the scenery for a few minutes and then fall back in behind the Ercoupe but I didn’t. I simply decided to extend my downwind. As a result we were almost 3 miles north of the field when we turned base. I drug the plane in on the prop and made a crappy landing.

So, now we’re on the ground and pseudo control tower tells us to contact ground on 123.45. I almost said “unable” but decided that it’s okay for me to monitor 123.45---I just can’t talk on it. So, I switched and follow ground’s instructions to parking. Ground asked me an irrelevant question while I’m parking. I don’t respond. After I’m parked and out of the plane he made a snide comment about me not responding. I respond as politely as I could that if he wanted me to talk then he should have chosen a frequency that is legal for me to talk on.

But the fun’s only begun.

After a trip to the FBO to relieve myself I walk out of the building to see kids climbing all over the parked planes. So I walk over and had a polite talk with the parents. No “fly-in personnel” were keeping an eye on the planes or on the general public. Needless to say there wasn’t even a sign at the general public’s entry to the ramp warning them to stay away from propellers and to not touch aircraft. “Look, enjoy, but please don’t touch” reads the sign on my propeller…not that anyone ever pays attention to it.

They were also giving chopper rides and the chopper kept departing over one line of parked planes and coming back in right over another. Even though it was just a small Robinson, there was enough rotor wash to make the lighter planes dance. I cringed but I didn’t say anything but only because my plane wasn’t in either of those two lines.

So, we had a quick early lunch, I talked to my Ercoupe buddy for a while (while staying quite close to, and keeping an eye on, my plane).

And then we got the hell out of there.

Sometimes I really I hate fly-ins.
 
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Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

172 flies 500 feet directly over you and your upset he's not at TPA? I'd be happy he missed me.

Also, why can't you talk on 123.45? Radio broke or did someone tell you that? It's a very common chatter freq and seems like it would make a good pseudo ground freq too.

Btw, good post. Those were just the two point I didn't understand.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

Also, why can't you talk on 123.45? Radio broke or did someone tell you that? It's a very common chatter freq and seems like it would make a good pseudo ground freq too.

AIM 4.1.11 - tables 4-1-2 and 4-1-3 show designated frequencies.

I think 123.45 is reserved. I know that everyone uses it, but you're not supposed to.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

When I saw that the 172 was flying a 747 pattern I should have elected to exit the pattern, fly out east and enjoy the scenery for a few minutes and then fall back in behind the Ercoupe but I didn’t. I simply decided to extend my downwind. As a result we were almost 3 miles north of the field when we turned base. I drug the plane in on the prop and made a crappy landing.

Ahhh, shoulda just chopped the power abeam the #'s and landed way before he even turned base! ;)
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

AIM 4.1.11 - tables 4-1-2 and 4-1-3 show designated frequencies.

I think 123.45 is reserved. I know that everyone uses it, but you're not supposed to.


123.45 is designated air to air in oceanic airspace. Haven't seen it assigned any place else so alot of people use it in the CONUS for air to air coms.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

123.45 is designated air to air in oceanic airspace. Haven't seen it assigned any place else so alot of people use it in the CONUS for air to air coms.

Just beacuse at lot of people do it, doesn't make it legal.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

I think 123.45 is also reserved as a flight test freq, but I can't find any specifics.

The freqs in the AIM are the assigned freqs - I don't think it's OK to use one that hasn't been assigned for GA use.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

That reminds me of a fly-in I went to at KHAF maybe ten years ago. They put up a temporary tower, and the pattern was basically a Chinese fire drill. Some people knew about the tower, some didn't.

I called in for landing and was cleared to land, and on downwind, the tower kept asking me an inaudible question. Finally I could hear the question when I was on final. "Are you in a group of four?"

"Negative."

"Then land long, and to the right."

WTF. I looked to my left and there was an airplane beside me. I looked rearward and there were two airplanes behind me. So, I landed long, and to the right, and parked amongst the zoo of airplanes in on the grass next to the taxiway. Never got an opportunity to bust the other pilots' chops about joining me for an unagreed formation flight.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

If what the OP describes is sufficient to make him rant that badly, I recommend staying well away from fly-ins and to only frequent airstrips with little traffic. I've experienced far worse and kept my cool.

It isn't up to any of us what anyone flies as their pattern. Yeah, if you don't like what the other guy's doing, veer off or cut inside, whatever. 123.45 isn't strictly legal, but if someone wants to use it to increase safety (say, for coordinating ground transportation at a busy event) I for one won't complain or look down my nose at them. No, an amateur tower might not be able to talk to NORDOs, but could be a huge help in separation, since there is another set of eyes on the field. I doubt I would ignore such a resource. Heck, someone telling me what the wind is and which way folks are landing has already cut down on my work load.

Lastly, I suggest strongly you move right away. I've been to more fly-ins than I can count, and I've never seen parents allow their children to touch someone else's property without permission. I've never been afraid for my aircraft at a fly-in. That isn't a problem of the fly-in organizers (they're supposed to have a volunteer to guard every aircraft!) that is a problem of the culture where you live. I can't imagine the kind of people who don't teach their children to respect the property of others. I certainly wouldn't want them for my neighbors.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

I think 123.45 is also reserved as a flight test freq, but I can't find any specifics.

The freqs in the AIM are the assigned freqs - I don't think it's OK to use one that hasn't been assigned for GA use.

Here is what I found:

The freq. 123.45 is designated by the FCC as a flight test frequency in Subpart J in this part of the regs:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2007-title47-vol5/pdf/CFR-2007-title47-vol5-part87-subpartJ.pdf

However, the frequencies that would have been proper for the person on the ground to use are in Subpart K in this parts of the FCC regs:

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2007-title47-vol5/pdf/CFR-2007-title47-vol5-part87-subpartK.pdf
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

Gosh, this sounds like 9am and 4:30 on a beautiful saturday when I fly...there's an Aero flying the pattern at 60 kts, a Cub doing half pattern power off landings, a King Air 15 miles out saying "hey y'all get out of my way" and about a half dozen student in various places.

I'm really not seeing the difference.

On the frequencies - does anyone have a reference that isn't the AIM....you know, one that actually carries legal weight?
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

On the frequencies - does anyone have a reference that isn't the AIM....you know, one that actually carries legal weight?

Read the FCC regs in the links I provided in post 12.
 
172 flies 500 feet directly over you and your upset he's not at TPA? I'd be happy he missed me.

Also, why can't you talk on 123.45? Radio broke or did someone tell you that? It's a very common chatter freq and seems like it would make a good pseudo ground freq too.

Btw, good post. Those were just the two point I didn't understand.

Captain,

Regarding the frequency, that's been answered. "Illegal" may not be technically correct but it's one of those frequencies that should not be used as it may interfere with those using it for its primary purpose.

Regarding TPA. Yeah, I was happy he missed me but there is a reason we the fly TP at TPA...so we can see each other because we know where to look...all other traffic will be on the horizon (more or less) and, yes, I understand that a Heavy may not be on the horizon but I wasn't looking for a heavy. Plus I certainly didn't expect that he'd still be well south of the field a good minute and a half after announcing that he was on left base.

Lastly, I suggest strongly you move right away. I've been to more fly-ins than I can count, and I've never seen parents allow their children to touch someone else's property without permission. I've never been afraid for my aircraft at a fly-in. That isn't a problem of the fly-in organizers (they're supposed to have a volunteer to guard every aircraft!) that is a problem of the culture where you live. I can't imagine the kind of people who don't teach their children to respect the property of others. I certainly wouldn't want them for my neighbors.

Well I don't exactly live in that neighborhood but this type of adult non-supervision of their children isn't uncommon many places I've been. But, I gotta agree with you in that I think the N Central & NE tend to have a better cultural and work ethic than many other parts of the country though I did have to kick a kid off of my wheel pant last year at 6Y9.

EDIT: BTW...that wasn't a rant. You've never seen me rant! :)

Another edit:


No, an amateur tower might not be able to talk to NORDOs, but could be a huge help in separation, since there is another set of eyes on the field. I doubt I would ignore such a resource.

Except that this tower consisted of two guys sitting at a folding table under a 12 to 16' square canopy tent. They may have occasionally moved but I never saw them do so which led me to conclude that they weren't looking at anything, just listening. I can listen and I will look. And, like Adam said, when they start providing separation and landing info and/or instructions then they're taking on a huge liability for themselves and their airport.

Providing wind speed/direction and stating how many "known" aircraft are in the pattern is one thing but being a wannabe control tower and thinking it's cool to play ATC at a fly-in is another. And, really, either way, if I'm doing my job as a pilot, then they are nothing but unnecessary background noise as is any other UNICOM/FBO that provides an airport advisory when I approaching any airport to land (unless there's just been a crash and the runway's closed! :yikes: )
 
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Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

123.45 is designated air to air in oceanic airspace. Haven't seen it assigned any place else so alot of people use it in the CONUS for air to air coms.

It is assigned in the US but not for idle chit chat. One of our more recalcitrant boardies here is one of the authorized users and he has hunted down and sued people who interfered with his flight tests by jabbering on fingers.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

You should have seen the mess caused by the temporary tower at FDK when AOPA used to have their open houses. Of course, now they have a permanent tower and it still doesn't work any better (telling gliders to hold altitude and standby).
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

If what the OP describes is sufficient to make him rant that badly, I recommend staying well away from fly-ins and to only frequent airstrips with little traffic. I've experienced far worse and kept my cool.

It isn't up to any of us what anyone flies as their pattern. Yeah, if you don't like what the other guy's doing, veer off or cut inside, whatever. 123.45 isn't strictly legal, but if someone wants to use it to increase safety (say, for coordinating ground transportation at a busy event) I for one won't complain or look down my nose at them. No, an amateur tower might not be able to talk to NORDOs, but could be a huge help in separation, since there is another set of eyes on the field. I doubt I would ignore such a resource. Heck, someone telling me what the wind is and which way folks are landing has already cut down on my work load.

Lastly, I suggest strongly you move right away. I've been to more fly-ins than I can count, and I've never seen parents allow their children to touch someone else's property without permission. I've never been afraid for my aircraft at a fly-in. That isn't a problem of the fly-in organizers (they're supposed to have a volunteer to guard every aircraft!) that is a problem of the culture where you live. I can't imagine the kind of people who don't teach their children to respect the property of others. I certainly wouldn't want them for my neighbors.

Eh Michael I think Tim has some good points. First when we had contests at the FlyBQ we did use an authorized ground freq to give contest instructions and parking instructions as back then our volunteers parked the aircraft and we didn't want to clutter the CTAF.

I'm not so concerned with the recitation of the winds but if there is a AWOS it should not be needed and presumably there was as how did the guys on the ground get it. Having organized sucessful flyins for 8 years now, I know it is critical to keep the CTAF freq open. Having guys on the ground giving landing instructions and sequencing has gotten folks killed at other fly ins
http://www.aopa.org/asf/ntsb/narrative.cfm?ackey=1&evid=20001212X19616
and its a HUGE liability.

Also if your opening the event to the public they need to explain to the public safety issues at an airport. We've done it at the FlyBQ. As for Kids climbing on planes well I don't think Tim suggests placing an armed guard at every plane but I do think that parents are out of hand at times and don't properly supervise Junior. I've seen static shows where the planes have signs all over them that say please look and ask questions but please don't touch and STILL parents let their kids use them as a jungle gym. I once saw a parent place his kid on the wing of an old fabric covered by plane so he could take photos I told him he should take the child off. Dad's response was ah thats ok he won't get hurt, I told him no but you will when he puts a hole in the fabric and the owner finds out.

As for asking active runway LOL if I say anything it will be 6/24. Really folks need to listen on the freq more. So much can be learned by just listening.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

1. I do object to the concept of ignoring information. Use it but don't depend on it , just don't ignore it
2. I question just how bad the use of fingers as a ground freq would be, the range from the ground is very limited.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

Legal or not I don't know, everybody I know uses it...well, better stated, I've never met anyone who had an objection to using it. Every 121 and 135 and 141 and 91 outfit I've ever worked for the pilots used fingers as the back channel to pass info.

That's my experience. But my experience is also that people can get in trouble for taking a reverse high speed without approval, so it appears we may have different background sets here too.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

Legal or not I don't know, everybody I know uses it...well, better stated, I've never met anyone who had an objection to using it. Every 121 and 135 and 141 and 91 outfit I've ever worked for the pilots used fingers as the back channel to pass info.

That's my experience. But my experience is also that people can get in trouble for taking a reverse high speed without approval, so it appears we may have different background sets here too.
We'll count me in as one of the people who will not use 123.45 and uses the proper frequency of 122.75 for air-to-air.

If you want to get real technical most of the people (non-atc) talking on aviation frequencies NOT in an airplane - pilot or not are doing so illegally.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

We'll count me in as one of the people who will not use 123.45 and uses the proper frequency of 122.75 for air-to-air.
I have also not used 123.45 for anything except my one oceanic experience. We definite don't use it 135. We have a company frequency. If we have one I'm sure airlines do too.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

I scan 123.45 in my radio room and there is always traffic between GA on the weekends. I do remember reading it somewhere on the interwebs, listing it as a air-air frequency. I believe it was on a monitoring website or something like that.
 
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Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

Legal or not I don't know, everybody I know uses it...well, better stated, I've never met anyone who had an objection to using it. Every 121 and 135 and 141 and 91 outfit I've ever worked for the pilots used fingers as the back channel to pass info.
Wait 'till this guy hears you! :goofy:

One of our more recalcitrant boardies here is one of the authorized users and he has hunted down and sued people who interfered with his flight tests by jabbering on fingers.

Maybe you can start a trend by educating your cohorts on the approved air to air frequency: 122.75. You'll find that it's quite quiet as everyone else is using fingers.:rofl:
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

Wait 'till this guy hears you! :goofy:



Maybe you can start a trend by educating your cohorts on the approved air to air frequency: 122.75. You'll find that it's quite quiet as everyone else is using fingers.:rofl:


What's fingers?
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

123.45 ... Am I the only one feeling compelled to say, "That's amazing. I've got the same combination on my luggage." ?
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

1. I do object to the concept of ignoring information. Use it but don't depend on it , just don't ignore it

I agree. Awesome post though. I like your writing style.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

123.45 ... Am I the only one feeling compelled to say, "That's amazing. I've got the same combination on my luggage." ?
Very weird. I thought this was a really old thread..then just realized you posted...
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

I haven't been to a fly-in like that, but I've heard about them. I dunno - either you have a tower and controller (even if it's temporary), or you don't. Let the pilots make their own decisions like they are supposed to - maybe relay wind info, but an amateur trying to sequence traffic just seems like a problem waiting to happen.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

123.45 ... Am I the only one feeling compelled to say, "That's amazing. I've got the same combination on my luggage." ?

:rofl:
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

123.45 ... Am I the only one feeling compelled to say, "That's amazing. I've got the same combination on my luggage." ?

Heees ALIIIIIIVE!


Very weird. I thought this was a really old thread..then just realized you posted...

LOL Jess I also did a double take on that! Glad to see you back Chuck!
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

What's fingers?

"Fingers" is the nickname for 123.45. As in counting on your fingers...one, two, three, four, five.

Unless you're a carpenter of course. I've been in construction all my life and I swear every carpenter's mission in life is to cut a few off (or at minimum, at least trim them all off to the same length!).
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

Same here. A better thread title would be the return of Greebo.
 
Re: Why I hat fly-ins...

Ahhh, shoulda just chopped the power abeam the #'s and landed way before he even turned base! ;)
That would have been my choice. With the 172 at TPA+500 and in a bomber pattern there's no way he'd even turn final before I was off the runway.

WRT the 123.45 (aka "fingers") I've pretty much given up on getting other pilots to stay off that and other "illegal" frequencies. AFaIK using frequencies not assigned to unicom or multicom for plane to plane transmissions is not a violation of any FAR and the FCC doesn't seem to care enough to do anything about it either.
 
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