Vent Thread

Palmpilot said:
If the part I put in bold is what you thought she was saying, I can see why you might take issue with it, but here's what she actually said:

I've had more things happen during the training then most have happen in their flying career.​

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49280

Even if you feel that the statement was not accurate, it's an exaggeration to interpret that as a claim to have more experience than most pilots.

And you didn't simply ask a question. When you didn't get an answer within two hours and twenty-one minutes, you posted this:

I guess we're not going to get an answer to the basis of the claim. Maybe it was just a thoughtless statement. Maybe you believe it. I guess nobody will ever know...​

Then after she apologized for the late reply, explained the delay, and explained what she was trying to get across, you felt compelled to continue complaining about her choice of words. :rolleyes:

I understand you had issues. But what you said was "I've had more things happen during the training then most have happen in their flying career".

Do you really think that's a true statement?



Edited because I had screwed up that quote.​

During the course of the thread, some people criticized your posts. Boo hoo. It happens.



I think "endless praise no matter the results" is another exaggeration. In fact, it rises to the level of a straw man.
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Well, while I was paraphrasing I must admit it was a typo. There should have been an "s" at the end of 'experiance'. The paraphrased quote should have read 'Ive had more experiences than most'.

Also, you simply looked at the time stamp between my two posts. What you missed is that I wasnt waiting for two hours and twenty one minutes to elapse, I was waiting for her to respond. Sh did that and didn't address her statement that I called out. I assumed she was taking a pass.
 
Palmpilot said:
But that's not the whole story. She went on to meet the requirements.
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With what some might consider a hazardous attitude.

If I had to take 3rd grade 4 times to make it through, and then squeaked by the 4th time, it would be indicative of a problem. Much more so if I blamed me failing 3rd grade 3 times on other people and couldn't accept the blame where it counted.

When I would forget something or do something dumb while I was working on my IR, I didn't blame Jesse, I realized the problem was me and accepted the blame. Even though I finished it in almost the minimum amount of hours, Jesse didn't let me take it until I was ready. Had I failed, it would have been my fault and not Jesses. Its called accountability.
 
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Tracey said:
Dan, you have the best attitude! :yesnod:
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And, for some reason, it's a question that I've actually figured out the answer to. ;)
 
Captain said:
Also, you simply looked at the time stamp between my two posts. What you missed is that I wasnt waiting for two hours and twenty one minutes to elapse, I was waiting for her to respond.
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What makes you think I missed anything? My point about the time stamps was that a few hours was WAY too soon to conclude "I guess nobody will ever know..."

Sh did that and didn't address her statement that I called out. I assumed she was taking a pass.
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She explained what she meant. I don't see how the following constitutes "taking a pass":

I dunno. Just seems like I had a lot of bad luck in my training. I almost wanted to give up and didn't want others to feel alone in their training process.​

After that, I don't see how continuing to call her out about her choice of words contributed to aviation in any way. What did you want, three hail Marys and a mea culpa?
 
Palmpilot said:
She explained what she meant. I don't see how the following constitutes "taking a pass":
I dunno. Just seems like I had a lot of bad luck in my training. I almost wanted to give up and didn't want others to feel alone in their training process.​
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At what point is one being in denial about some other problem by calling it luck? Are we truly out of control of our own destiny?

Alternately, if one has that bad of luck, should one continue to pursue potentially hazardous activities? At what cost?

/Socratic method
 
Palmpilot said:
What makes you think I missed anything? My point about the time stamps was that a few hours was WAY too soon to conclude "I guess nobody will ever know..."



She explained what she meant. I don't see how the following constitutes "taking a pass":

I dunno. Just seems like I had a lot of bad luck in my training. I almost wanted to give up and didn't want others to feel alone in their training process.​

After that, I don't see how continuing to call her out about her choice of words contributed to aviation in any way. What did you want, three hail Marys and a mea culpa?
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No, at that point I was just looking for an answer to: "On what do you base that?"

"I dunno. Just seems like I had a lot of bad luck in my training. I almost wanted to give up and didn't want others to feel alone in their training process."

That is an answer but not to any question I asked.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
At what point is one being in denial about some other problem by calling it luck? Are we truly out of control of our own destiny?

Alternately, if one has that bad of luck, should one continue to pursue potentially hazardous activities? At what cost?

/Socratic method
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This is all way too theoretical to be useful, IMO.
 
Captain said:
No, at that point I was just looking for an answer to: "On what do you base that?"

"I dunno. Just seems like I had a lot of bad luck in my training. I almost wanted to give up and didn't want others to feel alone in their training process."

That is an answer but not to any question I asked.
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Well boo hoo.

Sometimes "I don't know" is the only answer that exists.

What are you, the Spanish Inquisition?
 
Lol, well, no. No I am not. Good point.
 
Palmpilot said:
This is all way too theoretical to be useful, IMO.
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Theoretical, yes, but also analytical questions that one must ask one's self and are extremely useful.

I dropped my first motorcycle about two months after buying it. I was riding every day, the drop was at less than 5 mph because of a silly reason that was my own fault. I recognized the reason, I didn't do again, and was told by mentors "Everyone drops a motorcycle within the first six months." I did not drop it after that, so it seemed my challenge was reasonable. Others agreed, I kept riding. Here I am, safely riding almost 10 years later.

Now let's say that I dropped my motorcycle 4 times in those 6 months, regardless of the amount I rode, including once while moving. I get hurt in the process, although I still walk away.

What was the cause? If I keep on saying "Bad luck," then is there something that I'm ignoring that could prevent me from dropping again? If so, that is irresponsible and I should give up motorcycling.

What if it is just bad luck? Whatever reason there was I did everything right and I keep on dropping the bike? I truly am cursed. I should consider whether I want to keep on pushing this until I finally drop the bike and kill myself. If luck is truly against me, then I have to question whether it's worth my life to keep on doing something that clearly the universe does not wish for me to do.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
And what does this have to do with the example of someone who consistently fails the metrics we have put in place and that most people are able to pass? You're changing the scenario to fit your point.
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Baloney. The metrics are a performance standard. Sure, you can make the rules one try and out. But that's not how they are. Or is anyone who ever busted a check ride a bad pilot who shouldn't fly?

More importantly, the check ride does not "check" the most important aspect of a pilot. We've said over and over again that judgement is the most important thing to making a good pilot. It is also the one thing that isn't checked on a check ride.

Ted DuPuis said:
The one who's better and most likely to get me cured of whatever ails me. If that person never had to touch a book and manages to divine all the required information, I don't care so long as it works.
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That's the point. Who do you think is more likely to make it work? The guy who skated, or the guy who took it seriously. Who is more likely to have better judgement, the guy who skated, or the one who had lots of trouble and had to really try?

Ted DuPuis said:
So let's put this in comparison. You'd like to have a student who needed to take a one-semester course over 5 times? That's really the comparison here.
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There is a difference between a performance standard and an academic one. But many students get their good scores through hard work and perseverance. Those are the ones who do things.

Ted DuPuis said:
We're focusing on Sara here, and that is not the intent, so I apologize to Sara that it has become this. The point is about the attitude, as Captain has pointed out, and I believe that is ignored. Having met you, I find it difficult to believe that you would be truly gracious over a student who needed to take your class repeatedly, failing time after time, due to showing deficiencies in material, and I'm not sure you disagree given the fact that you have been changing the question at hand to provide a pat-on-the-back.
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A student forgetting a boost pump and a student not learning half the material I teach are really different things. Yes, I would handle them very differently.

Ted DuPuis said:
And when judgement is poor from the outset?
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That's really the point here, isn't it? You don't know a damn thing about anyone's judgement except possibly your own students. You could make some guesses about mine based on stuff posted here, but really, you don't know.

All you know about Sara is she busted check rides. You don't know dick about anything else. Neither do I. She could easily be the best pilot on the board, and you wouldn't know it. All you know is she busted check rides, and that's enough for you to pass some sort of BS CFI judgement.

The difference is I wouldn't gracefully but firmly break the news that someone was on a path they were unlikely to master unless they were my own student and my responsibility. And I wouldn't ever assume I had some sort of complete answer based on one data point.
 
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DavidWhite said:
I think that the best pilot on the boards would have passed their checkride pre 250 hours.
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Of course the other side of the coin is that Sara has more experience as a pre-PPC student than just about 99% of the PPC holders...:yesnod:
 
steingar said:
Baloney. The metrics are a performance standard. Sure, you can make the rules one try and out. But that's not how they are. Or is anyone who ever busted a check ride a bad pilot who shouldn't fly?
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You keep on changing the matter to suit your patting-on-the-back attitude. We're not talking about failing one ride, we're talking about failing repeatedly.

More importantly, the check ride does not "check" the most important aspect of a pilot. We've said over and over again that judgement is the most important thing to making a good pilot. It is also the one thing that isn't checked on a check ride.
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Basic capability to fly the plane is important, too, as we keep on saying. If one fails at that, judgement is irrelevant.

That's the point. Who do you think is more likely to make it work? The guy who skated, or the guy who took it seriously. Who is more likely to have better judgement, the guy who skated, or the one who had lots of trouble and had to really try?
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Too little information to make a determination. As I said, I shouldn't be a surgeon. I have the judgement to realize that.

A student forgetting a boost pump and a student not learning half the material I teach are really different things. Yes, I would handle them very differently.
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We're not talking about forgetting a boost pump. Again, you're trying to change the subject to suit your view.

That's really the point here, isn't it? You don't know a damn thing about anyone's judgement except possibly your own students. You could make some guesses about mine based on stuff posted here, but really, you don't know.

All you know about Sara is she busted check rides. You don't know dick about anything else. Neither do I. She could easily be the best pilot on the board, and you wouldn't know it. All you know is she busted check rides, and that's enough for you to pass some sort of BS CFI judgement.
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When have I said that's the only metric I'm going on? I have not, I have pointed to other items that do illustrate judgement (or lack thereof).

The difference is I wouldn't gracefully but firmly break the news that someone was on a path they were unlikely to master unless they were my own student and my responsibility. And I wouldn't ever assume I had some sort of complete answer based on one data point.
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So when did I, or anyone else, say we had a complete answer? It seems that any form of criticism is automatically wrong here.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Depends on the number of dogs, obviously. I think over the past 1000 dogs we've had an average of about 18 dogs per trip. At 9 MPG (statue), that comes out to 0.006 gallons per dog per mile.
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Is that anything like Three Dog Night?
 
Well, I see Sara has decided to leave the board. Nice going....
 
This thread is a prime example of why I don't get personal with my exploits on a message board. Any message board.
 
wsuffa said:
Well, I see Sara has decided to leave the board. Nice going....
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Yup, that's my fault. I take full responsibility. I'm to blame for all her decisions in life.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Theoretical, yes, but also analytical questions that one must ask one's self and are extremely useful.

I dropped my first motorcycle about two months after buying it. I was riding every day, the drop was at less than 5 mph because of a silly reason that was my own fault. I recognized the reason, I didn't do again, and was told by mentors "Everyone drops a motorcycle within the first six months." I did not drop it after that, so it seemed my challenge was reasonable. Others agreed, I kept riding. Here I am, safely riding almost 10 years later.

Now let's say that I dropped my motorcycle 4 times in those 6 months, regardless of the amount I rode, including once while moving. I get hurt in the process, although I still walk away.

What was the cause? If I keep on saying "Bad luck," then is there something that I'm ignoring that could prevent me from dropping again? If so, that is irresponsible and I should give up motorcycling.

What if it is just bad luck? Whatever reason there was I did everything right and I keep on dropping the bike? I truly am cursed. I should consider whether I want to keep on pushing this until I finally drop the bike and kill myself. If luck is truly against me, then I have to question whether it's worth my life to keep on doing something that clearly the universe does not wish for me to do.
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You should watch "Trailer Park Boys" one of characters claims to be a Calvinist and thus believes in predestination and thus does whatever (usually reckless behavior) he pleases with the explanation of "That's the way she goes"
 
So to take this a slightly different direction:

Her DPE says she meets the Private Pilot standard. And if they did their job right, that standard was defined by the FAA.

So... should there be a time cut-off on the standard? Is that what folks are saying? You don't "get it" in 200 hours, you're disqualified?

Either the system works, or it's broken and needs to be fixed.

People haven't changed and there will always be super-talented folk, and folk who take a while to learn something, and some who will never get it at all. If the system's not designed to catch that, that's a major problem.

She has a ticket in her pocket. She's an FAA Certified Pilot. Debating her qualifications seems a bit much at this point.

If you disagree with the DPE, call them.

If you think the standard by which the DPE's judge pilots is lacking, call the FSDO.
 
Well that's the point I guess.

The system we have now has no termination point other than financial limitations. If Steve Jobs kid was the worlds worst pilot, could never make a sound decision and could only pull a maneuver to PTS standards 1 out of 5 attempts then eventually...giving enough time and money she would get a PPC.

That a system flaw IMHO. But 99.9% of the time it's a non-issue as money IS a factor for most.
 
This whole thing reminds me of this:

duty_calls.png
 
Captain said:
Well that's the point I guess.

The system we have now has no termination point other than financial limitations. If Steve Jobs kid was the worlds worst pilot, could never make a sound decision and could only pull a maneuver to PTS standards 1 out of 5 attempts then eventually...giving enough time and money she would get a PPC.

That a system flaw IMHO. But 99.9% of the time it's a non-issue as money IS a factor for most.
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Is it a system flaw, or a DPE flaw? There's a difference there, remember...

Should there be a follow-on stronger than a BFR? Should you be able to flunk a BFR?
 
Maybe it should be more subjective and give the DPEs more flexibility. Make them like umpires in baseball where the call is made and nobody questions it.

We write reams of standards and rules to protect DPEs from an applicant saying, "well so and so forgot the boost pump and passed so why are you failing me?"

Well maybe so and so demonstrated a flawless flight except for the boost pump and you just barely squeaked by every event and the boost pump was the final straw. I see merit in an applicant knowing what is expected though so I guess test standards are a good thing.

I don't know. Maybe what we have is fine. I don't know how to fix it anyway...
 
DavidWhite said:
I know people who have flunked BFRs
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Technically there's no way to flunk a BFR. There are CFI's who will refuse to sign off that a BFR was completed, and we discussed that here...

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-39769.html

(From that thread...)

From 8900.2 "General Aviation Airman Designee Handbook"

52. Logbook Endorsements.

a. Logbook Endorsement When Satisfactory. When a pilot has satisfactorily
accomplished a flight review or competency check, the pilot’s logbook or personal record must
be endorsed by the person who gave the review. That endorsement should read substantively as
follows: MR./MS. [insert name of airman as it appears on airman certificate], HOLDER OF
PILOT CERTIFICATE NO. [insert number as it appears on the airman certificate], HAS
SATISFACTORILY COMPLETED A [insert type of review or competency check] ON [insert
date] IN A [insert type of aircraft].

b. Logbook Endorsement When Unsatisfactory. If, in the opinion of the person
conducting the flight, the pilot has not accomplished a flight review satisfactorily, that person
shall endorse the pilot’s logbook only to indicate the training received. There is no provision in
the regulation for the failure of a flight review; therefore, there should be no logbook
endorsement reflecting a failure.

-----

Should the BFR be a "real" check ride as the pilot population ages? Is that phrase in 61.56 "at the discretion of the person giving the review" a little too broad/open?

I'm just asking the questions... I can see where if these things are done one way, the system works... and done another way, the system being broken. Mostly because one person's "discretion" is a completely different thing than another's.
 
Maybe a failed check ride should result in another full check ride?
 
Clark1961 said:
Of course the other side of the coin is that Sara has more experience as a pre-PPC student than just about 99% of the PPC holders...:yesnod:
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She was probably also a lot more current and safe than many other pilots are at 250 hours.
 
Captain said:
Maybe it should be more subjective and give the DPEs more flexibility. Make them like umpires in baseball where the call is made and nobody questions it.

We write reams of standards and rules to protect DPEs from an applicant saying, "well so and so forgot the boost pump and passed so why are you failing me?"

Well maybe so and so demonstrated a flawless flight except for the boost pump and you just barely squeaked by every event and the boost pump was the final straw. I see merit in an applicant knowing what is expected though so I guess test standards are a good thing.

I don't know. Maybe what we have is fine. I don't know how to fix it anyway...
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And maybe there isn't anything but your perception of a problem. You've presented no evidence, that I can see, that a problem exists. You talk about poor judgement and evaluating that on the checkride, yet it seems like poor judgement affects pilots with thousands of hours of experience at least as much as it does newly minted private pilots. Do you really have anything more to go on than your gut feeling here?

The FAA has been using the current system for about 85 years. If you are unhappy with it, file a petition to change it.
 
Old Geek said:
You've presented no evidence, that I can see, that a problem exists. You talk about poor judgement and evaluating that on the checkride, yet it seems like poor judgement affects pilots with thousands of hours of experience at least as much as it does newly minted private pilots.
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Exactly. Sara and some others here have been very open about the mistakes they've made. That doesn't mean other people here haven't made mistakes. Everyone has. That includes mistakes in judgment.
 
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