Vent Thread

Old Geek said:
<rant>

Sometimes I wonder why I even bother to log onto POA. The level of arrogance and know-it-all attitudes have become overwhelming. For a sport that claims "you are always learning" quite a few of you seem to think you've mastered it all and are wiser than the DPE that wrote out others' temporary certificates.

The NTSB records are chock-full of 2000 hour ATP's doing stupid stuff and getting caught or hurt or dead. I'll wager that a fair number of you experts would have a seriously hard time passing a PP knowledge test, oral and checkride with a day's notice.

Give the rookies a break. You were one once.

</rant> Sorry.
Click to expand...


Someone with enough hours to be a commercial pilot is nay a rookie. However passing the PP checkride with more hours than that is......different.
 
Old Geek said:
Sometimes I wonder why I even bother to log onto POA. The level of incessant banter not even related to aviation have become overwhelming. For a sport that claims "you are always learning" quite a few of you seem to be satisfied with not having learned a dang thing and are giddy over finally fooling a DPE into writing you temporary certificates.
Click to expand...

FTFY

The NTSB records are chock-full of 2000 hour ATP's doing stupid stuff and getting caught or hurt or dead.
Click to expand...

Absolutely right. I wonder how many of those people should have been stopped at the private pilot stage, before they had gotten to the point of being allowed to get their ATP ratings.

I'll wager that a fair number of you experts would have a seriously hard time passing a PP knowledge test, oral and checkride with a day's notice.
Click to expand...

Probably true. I haven't flown a 172 in a few years, barely flown any singles in that time period. I would probably not do particularly well at that, and I've probably forgotten some of the useless knowledge about ADFs and LORANs that I was forced to learn at the outset, but was able to learn.

Give the rookies a break. You were one once.
Click to expand...

I think David summed it up well. CFIs especially do give rookies breaks, that's our job. There is a certain point when someone should no longer be a rookie, though, and continued inability to demonstrate even a mediocre level of achievement is indicative of a problem.

</rant> Sorry.
Click to expand...

It's a rant thread, nothing to be sorry about.
 
I do have alot of hours. So. I went with trips with my friend a CFI. We went on trips together. He helped me get to KAGC a couple times to see my family (2 hours plane vs 5 in a car) Logged as dual xc time.

I didn't "get" landings. Women are different when it comes to learning (from what I hear!) I wanted to really be good at it before we moved on to something else. Sorry I'm not a wiz at school type stuff off the bat but once I get it; I get it. I am a good pilot IMO.
 
You are most likely correct Geek. Of course I have not looked at a sectional in a couple of decades nor give any thought to airspace restrictions. Not sure what your point is. Those ATP's might should have been given some mentoring as a student pilot:dunno:

Nobody is down on rookie pilots. This thread was started by Captain wandering why students or new pilots asking for mentors take exception when an experienced pilot trys to be a mentor.

In other words how about a little compasionate honesty?
 
saracelica said:
Sorry some of you feel I'm unsafe. I regret posting some of my stories and whatnot. My husband/CFI/DPE/local friends disagree and those are the opinions that matter the most to me. Free country thankfully so if you don't want to fly with me that's your right. I won't make any of you do it.
Click to expand...

I believe that this is part of the attitude problem that some of us show concern over. If someone tells you no, you've pretty much ignored it, and continue to do so now - perhaps hardened by your paper with wet ink on it. You have told us that your own CFI and the DPE has told you no a number of times, and you have ignored it.

One must be willing to take in the opinions that are unfavorable as well as favorable. If someone criticizes me, if anything I will take it to heart more than someone praising me. That doesn't mean I will necessarily act on it. When I bought the Aztec several people on here, with good intentions, said it was a bad idea. I looked past that because I was intent on getting the appropriate training and setting appropriate personal minimums until I built my skills. Their statements were based on the assumption that, like most people at my experience level at the time, I wouldn't.
 
saracelica said:
I do have alot of hours. So. I went with trips with my friend a CFI. We went on trips together. He helped me get to KAGC a couple times to see my family (2 hours plane vs 5 in a car) Logged as dual xc time.

I didn't "get" landings. Women are different when it comes to learning (from what I hear!) I wanted to really be good at it before we moved on to something else. Sorry I'm not a wiz at school type stuff off the bat but once I get it; I get it. I am a good pilot IMO.
Click to expand...

It took me a long time to get good enough at landing to solo (or at least it seemed so to me at the time). And then my first solo landing was downright embarrassing! :redface: But my second solo landing was acceptable, and my third was textbook. Twenty years later, I can say that I never again made the mistake I made on that first landing.

Sometimes, that which is learned with difficulty is learned very well.
 
ronnieh said:
Nobody is down on rookie pilots. This thread was started by Captain wandering why students or new pilots asking for mentors take exception when an experienced pilot trys to be a mentor.

In other words how about a little compasionate honesty?
Click to expand...

Having read the great captain's posts to her in the other thread, it was most definitely NOT mentoring. It was garden variety Internet nit-picking. (And being a champion nit-picker myself, I know it when I see it!)
 
Last edited:
Captain said:
Feel free to use my thread here to rant about your own issues.
Click to expand...

I wish to rant about restaurants that do not serve Chocolate Pie. This is America and Chocolate pie is almost as American as Italian food, so restaurants should have it on the menu.

Rant off...

carry on. :lol:
 
Florida Cracker said:
I wish to rant about restaurants that do not serve Chocolate Pie. This is America and Chocolate pie is almost as American as Italian food, so restaurants should have it on the menu.
Click to expand...

I, too, love chocolate pie. Furthermore, I love all forms of chocolate. It should be made available everywhere! I should have chocolate delivered to my door, free of charge, on a daily basis.

That is all. :D
 
Chocolate pie? I've had chocolate cake...never pie. Wouldn't it just end up a big gloppy mess?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I believe that this is part of the attitude problem that some of us show concern over. If someone tells you no, you've pretty much ignored it, and continue to do so now - perhaps hardened by your paper with wet ink on it. You have told us that your own CFI and the DPE has told you no a number of times, and you have ignored it.

One must be willing to take in the opinions that are unfavorable as well as favorable. If someone criticizes me, if anything I will take it to heart more than someone praising me. That doesn't mean I will necessarily act on it. When I bought the Aztec several people on here, with good intentions, said it was a bad idea. I looked past that because I was intent on getting the appropriate training and setting appropriate personal minimums until I built my skills. Their statements were based on the assumption that, like most people at my experience level at the time, I wouldn't.
Click to expand...

OK, I'm confused now. You call it an "attitude problem" that she did exactly what you did: she made her own decision after others advised her against it.
 
Palmpilot said:
OK, I'm confused now. You call it an "attitude problem" that she did exactly what you did: she made her own decision after others advised her against it.
Click to expand...

Mr Dupuis is also a competent and safe pilot with many many many hours now. IIRC he had a respectable amount of complex time when he bought his Aztec, and was not eligible for his commercial pilot test when he took his checkride. I wasn't eligible for my commercial pilot test when I took my checkride, either. I did pass on the first time however.
 
Palmpilot said:
OK, I'm confused now. You call it an "attitude problem" that she did exactly what you did: she made her own decision after others advised her against it.
Click to expand...

There is a subtle difference here. She ignores the criticism because it's not what she wants to hear, and listens to the opinions of those who tell her what she wants to hear.

I took the criticism, processed it, weighed it against other factors and information that others didn't have, and made a decision from it. Point is, I didn't ignore the criticism, I weighed it with other factors.
 
hopmedic said:
Looked at Captain's profile out of curiosity. Here is what I saw:
Captain has not made any friends yet
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Ted DuPuis said:
Looks like Captain has several friends. I guess it's those of us who agree he had a point.
Click to expand...
Apparently you received a friend request from him right after he sent me one, because my quote above is a direct copy/paste from the friends tab at the time of the post. Don't try to make it look like I made that up.

The main point that I would like to make is that as a newcomer here, I am left with a foul taste in my mouth at all the bickering, bullying, etc., and wondering if this board is really worth being a part of. When a person can't even be adult enough to allow someone a bit of hyperbole without criticism, I'm not sure it is. Yes, his comment was snarky, and appears to have been baiting the OP, and in the words of another poster, I am glad that Sara didn't take the bait. I don't know what y'all's history is, but your actions sure aren't attractive to newcomers.

An adult would not have started this thread. At least not in the way he did it.
 
Last edited:
:idea: What is the gallons per dog (gpd) of an Aztec? I checked the performance figures and could not find it listed.
 
hopmedic said:
Apparently you received a friend request from him right after he sent me one, because my quote above is a direct copy/paste from the friends tab at the time of the post. Don't try to make it look like I made that up.
Click to expand...

Sorry, my intent wasn't clear. I knew you didn't make that up, and didn't mean to imply it.

My point was that there were people here who do like Captain (I sent him the friend request, BTW), and many of us probably don't care a bunch about this whole "Friending" thing on PoA. I'm one of them.

The main point that I would like to make is that as a newcomer here, I am left with a foul taste in my mouth at all the bickering, bullying, etc., and wondering if this board is really worth being a part of. When a person can't even be adult enough to allow someone a bit of hyperbole without criticism, I'm not sure it is. Yes, his comment was snarky, and appears to have been baiting the OP, and in the words of another poster, I am glad that Sara didn't take the bait. I don't know what y'all's history is, but your actions sure aren't attractive to newcomers.
Click to expand...

As a newcomer, I felt similarly, but for different reasons. Some of it had to do with maturity (or lack thereof) and not realizing when people were trying to help me with their advice, although I did take the advice seriously.
 
hopmedic said:
Apparently you received a friend request from him right after he sent me one, because my quote above is a direct copy/paste from the friends tab at the time of the post. Don't try to make it look like I made that up.

The main point that I would like to make is that as a newcomer here, I am left with a foul taste in my mouth at all the bickering, bullying, etc., and wondering if this board is really worth being a part of. When a person can't even be adult enough to allow someone a bit of hyperbole without criticism, I'm not sure it is. Yes, his comment was snarky, and appears to have been baiting the OP, and in the words of another poster, I am glad that Sara didn't take the bait. I don't know what y'all's history is, but your actions sure aren't attractive to newcomers.

An adult would not have started this thread.
Click to expand...

And the history with Sara goes all the way back to last June when she failed her first checkride for not being able to trim the airplane. She has a history of not making good PIC decisions, the first checkride she said her DPE pressured her to go, the second her CFI pressured her to go. She made this comment http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=761957&postcount=2
The second time she failed she only had to take half of a checkride. Both times with different CFIs, then took it again in late april and failed.
 
spinfire said:
:idea: What is the gallons per dog (gpd) of an Aztec? I checked the performance figures and could not find it listed.
Click to expand...

Depends on the number of dogs, obviously. I think over the past 1000 dogs we've had an average of about 18 dogs per trip. At 9 MPG (statue), that comes out to 0.006 gallons per dog per mile.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
There is a subtle difference here. She ignores the criticism because it's not what she wants to hear, and listens to the opinions of those who tell her what she wants to hear.

I took the criticism, processed it, weighed it against other factors and information that others didn't have, and made a decision from it. Point is, I didn't ignore the criticism, I weighed it with other factors.
Click to expand...

I take it for granted that you know yourself very well. I doubt that you know her well enough to form a valid conclusion about it one way or the other.

My observation is that people on the Internet have a tendency to form opinons about each other based on too little information.
 
I have many friends in real life, from POA, who are not my friend on here. Not even sure what that part of the site is for (do I get notified when they start a thread?). I would not count someone's "number of friends" on POA and assume that is a true and correct number.
 
hopmedic said:
Apparently you received a friend request from him right after he sent me one, because my quote above is a direct copy/paste from the friends tab at the time of the post. Don't try to make it look like I made that up.

The main point that I would like to make is that as a newcomer here, I am left with a foul taste in my mouth at all the bickering, bullying, etc., and wondering if this board is really worth being a part of. When a person can't even be adult enough to allow someone a bit of hyperbole without criticism, I'm not sure it is. Yes, his comment was snarky, and appears to have been baiting the OP, and in the words of another poster, I am glad that Sara didn't take the bait. I don't know what y'all's history is, but your actions sure aren't attractive to newcomers.

An adult would not have started this thread. At least not in the way he did it.
Click to expand...

If you had followed the exploits of this individual, you may not feel the same way. I am concerned about her ability to act as PIC in a responsible, safe manner. She seems to operate on immature emotion, rather than sound judgement and is easily angered when criticized. But hey, who am I to judge :dunno:
 
hopmedic said:
Apparently you received a friend request from him right after he sent me one, because my quote above is a direct copy/paste from the friends tab at the time of the post. Don't try to make it look like I made that up.

The main point that I would like to make is that as a newcomer here, I am left with a foul taste in my mouth at all the bickering, bullying, etc., and wondering if this board is really worth being a part of. When a person can't even be adult enough to allow someone a bit of hyperbole without criticism, I'm not sure it is. Yes, his comment was snarky, and appears to have been baiting the OP, and in the words of another poster, I am glad that Sara didn't take the bait. I don't know what y'all's history is, but your actions sure aren't attractive to newcomers.

An adult would not have started this thread. At least not in the way he did it.
Click to expand...

I am not going to beg you to stay, but, I will say this. I followed other aviation boards (Red, Purple) and chose POA. There are similar problems on all boards and indeed I found POA to be the least drama believe it or not. Well, purple has less drama, but less aviation related posts. It is fun but not as educational, for me, as POA. YMMV.
 
hopmedic said:
Apparently you received a friend request from him right after he sent me one, because my quote above is a direct copy/paste from the friends tab at the time of the post. Don't try to make it look like I made that up.

The main point that I would like to make is that as a newcomer here, I am left with a foul taste in my mouth at all the bickering, bullying, etc., and wondering if this board is really worth being a part of. When a person can't even be adult enough to allow someone a bit of hyperbole without criticism, I'm not sure it is. Yes, his comment was snarky, and appears to have been baiting the OP, and in the words of another poster, I am glad that Sara didn't take the bait. I don't know what y'all's history is, but your actions sure aren't attractive to newcomers.

An adult would not have started this thread. At least not in the way he did it.
Click to expand...


I have, in my life, sent exactly one friend request on a forum. It was to you after you made fun of me for 'not having any friends'. It seemed the only appropriate way to handle that silly insult.

Also, please stop with the guilt trip of "I don't know if PoA is right for me...people are rude". People here are like people everywhere. If you don't like it leave. If you do stay. It's not my fault or responsibility either way.

Btw, 99999999977, what do I get?
 
Captain said:
I have, in my life, sent exactly one friend request on a forum. It was to you after you made fun of me for 'not having any friends'. It seemed the only appropriate way to handle that silly insult.

Also, please stop with the guilt trip of "I don't know if PoA is right for me...people are rude". People here are like people everywhere. If you don't like it leave. If you do stay. It's not my fault or responsibility either way.

Btw, 99999999977, what do I get?
Click to expand...

When I joined POA I was attacked. Literally. And I'm still here. People need to understand that the internet is just like real life. There are good and bad people. And good people who are in a bad mood when posting.
 
Captain said:
I have, in my life, sent exactly one friend request on a forum. It was to you after you made fun of me for 'not having any friends'. It seemed the only appropriate way to handle that silly insult.

Also, please stop with the guilt trip of "I don't know if PoA is right for me...people are rude". People here are like people everywhere. If you don't like it leave. If you do stay. It's not my fault or responsibility either way.

Btw, 99999999977, what do I get?
Click to expand...

I sent Captain a friend request after he posted exactly what I was thinking.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I am not going to beg you to stay, but, I will say this. I followed other aviation boards (Red, Purple) and chose POA. There are similar problems on all boards and indeed I found POA to be the least drama believe it or not. Well, purple has less drama, but less aviation related posts. It is fun but not as educational, for me, as POA. YMMV.
Click to expand...

Sounds about right to me.
 
Palmpilot said:
I take it for granted that you know yourself very well. I doubt that you know her well enough to form a valid conclusion about it one way or the other.
Click to expand...

No doubt I know myself better than I know Sara, however I've talked with her enough in chat and read enough of her posts to form my opinions.

Note I never said she was a bad person, or dumb. I never even said that I didn't like her. So what's the problem here?

kimberlyanne546 said:
When I joined POA I was attacked. Literally.
Click to expand...

Really? Someone came after you and left you hospitalized or otherwise beaten and bruised? :rolleyes:
 
To all,

I'd imagine the overall drama on this forum has probably ticked up since my arrival. Especially after that 'reverse high speed' thread. Since then it has been my sincere goal to tone it way down.

Take this Sara thing. I sat quietly and just watched thread after thread. Didn't utter a peep. And then the comment hit that she felt she had more experience than most and the camels back broke. I didn't fly off the rails, I simply asked what she based that on. And then this ensued.

By and large I feel this has been a pretty useful thread to highlight two views. The idea of endless praise no matter the results as long as effort is put forth and the reality is what it is view where some win and some lose.

This really isn't even about Sara. It's bigger. I'm not a bully trying to build myself up by putting others down. That has nothing to do with this thread or any of my posts. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I wish Sara the best.
 
Captain said:
To all,

I'd imagine the overall drama on this forum has probably ticked up since my arrival. Especially after that 'reverse high speed' thread. Since then it has been my sincere goal to tone it way down.

Take this Sara thing. I sat quietly and just watched thread after thread. Didn't utter a peep. And then the comment hit that she felt she had more experience than most and the camels back broke. I didn't fly off the rails, I simply asked what she based that on. And then this ensued.

By and large I feel this has been a pretty useful thread to highlight two views. The idea of endless praise no matter the results as long as effort is put forth and the reality is what it is view where some win and some lose.

This really isn't even about Sara. It's bigger. I'm not a bully trying to build myself up by putting others down. That has nothing to do with this thread or any of my posts. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I wish Sara the best.
Click to expand...


:yesnod:
 
Ted DuPuis said:
How would you respond if one of your students in your class failed the same test 5 times, despite repeated instruction? You might tell that student "This simply isn't for you." And having met you in person, you'd probably manage to do so in a blunt, yet humorous, fashion.
Click to expand...

Students do poorly in exam situations for many reasons. Some have to do with their intelligence, i.e. were they able to successfully master the material? Other reasons exist, however.

I will give a very good example. I give multiple question exams to the huge class I teach. 5 different answers per question. Last time I took it myself, I got a B. No fooling. Did I know the material? Of course I did, I wrote the damn test! I suck at multiple question exams. I did well when I was a student, and I have no idea how.

Lots of students get bad exam fright. Lots of students are just poor in that environment. The trick to academic accomplishment is to figure out the blocks and overcome them.

What about the students who really can't make it? They are out there. The answer is pretty simple. Not being able to take a test does not make one stupid. Not being being able to function well in an academic environment doesn't either. Every profession isn't for everyone. Just because someone did poorly for me doesn't mean they can't do well in something else.

Sara picked up a lot of flak because she took her test three times and had a lot of hours leading up to it. I think the flack it utter BS, totally and completely, put up by folks who think way, way, way too much of themselves. I have students who only study a little, and students who study their arses off. Now, who would you rather have as your MD? The guy who skated through school, or the guy who had to really work at it?

The difference between what I do and pilot training is the latter isn't just book learning, there is a lot that has to be leaned and applied in real time, that's what makes it difficult. Sorry, the book learning part is easy, I didn't even go to a ground school, I read a book, once, didn't take any notes or study for the test. Does that mean that those who had to work harder at it are stooges and shouldn't be in the sky? No! Everyone does things at their own rate. Sara's rate was slower to be certain, but her stick-to-itness allowed her to persevere. Damn I wish I had more students like her.

Does this mean that Sara is a good pilot or a bad one? At the end of the day, I feel the greater part of being a good pilot is judgement. Flying GA, with luck we won't be testing the outer envelope of our aircraft, and don't see the stick and rudder skills of Bob Hoover. And you guys should remember that Scotty Crossfield, one of the most skillful pilots ever, was brought down by a Thunderstorm.

What about Sara? Fact of the matter is, I don't know, and neither does anyone else. I can say I have doubts about the judgement of some members based on what they post and what I've seen them do. Sara just isn't one of them.
 
steingar said:
Students do poorly in exam situations for many reasons. Some have to do with their intelligence, i.e. were they able to successfully master the material? Other reasons exist, however.

I will give a very good example. I give multiple question exams to the huge class I teach. 5 different answers per question. Last time I took it myself, I got a B. No fooling. Did I know the material? Of course I did, I wrote the damn test! I suck at multiple question exams. I did well when I was a student, and I have no idea how.
Click to expand...

And what does this have to do with the example of someone who consistently fails the metrics we have put in place and that most people are able to pass? You're changing the scenario to fit your point.

Lots of students get bad exam fright. Lots of students are just poor in that environment. The trick to academic accomplishment is to figure out the blocks and overcome them.
Click to expand...

Yes, agreed. But that wasn't the question.

What about the students who really can't make it? They are out there. The answer is pretty simple. Not being able to take a test does not make one stupid. Not being being able to function well in an academic environment doesn't either. Every profession isn't for everyone. Just because someone did poorly for me doesn't mean they can't do well in something else.
Click to expand...

Isn't that what I said? Yes, yes it is.

Now, who would you rather have as your MD? The guy who skated through school, or the guy who had to really work at it?
Click to expand...

The one who's better and most likely to get me cured of whatever ails me. If that person never had to touch a book and manages to divine all the required information, I don't care so long as it works.

The difference between what I do and pilot training is the latter isn't just book learning, there is a lot that has to be leaned and applied in real time, that's what makes it difficult. Sorry, the book learning part is easy, I didn't even go to a ground school, I read a book, once, didn't take any notes or study for the test. Does that mean that those who had to work harder at it are stooges and shouldn't be in the sky? No! Everyone does things at their own rate. Sara's rate was slower to be certain, but her stick-to-itness allowed her to persevere. Damn I wish I had more students like her.
Click to expand...

So let's put this in comparison. You'd like to have a student who needed to take a one-semester course over 5 times? That's really the comparison here.

We're focusing on Sara here, and that is not the intent, so I apologize to Sara that it has become this. The point is about the attitude, as Captain has pointed out, and I believe that is ignored. Having met you, I find it difficult to believe that you would be truly gracious over a student who needed to take your class repeatedly, failing time after time, due to showing deficiencies in material, and I'm not sure you disagree given the fact that you have been changing the question at hand to provide a pat-on-the-back.

At the end of the day, I feel the greater part of being a good pilot is judgement. Flying GA, with luck we won't be testing the outer envelope of our aircraft, and don't see the stick and rudder skills of Bob Hoover. And you guys should remember that Scotty Crossfield, one of the most skillful pilots ever, was brought down by a Thunderstorm.
Click to expand...

And when judgement is poor from the outset?
 
Captain said:
Take this Sara thing. I sat quietly and just watched thread after thread. Didn't utter a peep. And then the comment hit that she felt she had more experience than most and the camels back broke. I didn't fly off the rails, I simply asked what she based that on. And then this ensued.
Click to expand...

If the part I put in bold is what you thought she was saying, I can see why you might take issue with it, but here's what she actually said:

I've had more things happen during the training then most have happen in their flying career.​

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49280

Even if you feel that the statement was not accurate, it's an exaggeration to interpret that as a claim to have more experience than most pilots.

And you didn't simply ask a question. When you didn't get an answer within two hours and twenty-one minutes, you posted this:

I guess we're not going to get an answer to the basis of the claim. Maybe it was just a thoughtless statement. Maybe you believe it. I guess nobody will ever know...​

Then after she apologized for the late reply, explained the delay, and explained what she was trying to get across, you felt compelled to continue complaining about her choice of words. :rolleyes:

I understand you had issues. But what you said was "I've had more things happen during the training then most have happen in their flying career".

Do you really think that's a true statement?



Edited because I had screwed up that quote.​

During the course of the thread, some people criticized your posts. Boo hoo. It happens.

By and large I feel this has been a pretty useful thread to highlight two views. The idea of endless praise no matter the results as long as effort is put forth and the reality is what it is view where some win and some lose.

This really isn't even about Sara. It's bigger. I'm not a bully trying to build myself up by putting others down. That has nothing to do with this thread or any of my posts. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I wish Sara the best.
Click to expand...

I think "endless praise no matter the results" is another exaggeration. In fact, it rises to the level of a straw man.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top