Vent Thread

Mtns2Skies said:
:yeahthat:

Yes, yes we do. A majority of this board is made up of "bullies"


Pot calling the kettle black? I recall a thread in which you slandered young pilots and student pilots for being too inexperienced to be considered pilots (I do not remember your exact words admittedly)
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Please find that quote. I must have been off my meds or something and need to find out who to apologize to. Or -- have you confused me with someone else?

Mtns2Skies said:
We all can take some of that advice, even you.

The moral is, this is the internet. People are sometimes mean. Suck it up buttercup.
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"buttercup" -- what a wonderful way to minimize someone without stooping to obloquy. Have you ever used it before? You really should keep that one in your bag of tricks. Commendable.
 
AuntPeggy said:
Please find that quote. I must have been off my meds or something and need to find out who to apologize to. Or -- have you confused me with someone else?
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http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=604205&postcount=33
and Nick's reply:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=604209&postcount=34
and Ted's reply:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=605095&postcount=64
AuntPeggy said:
"buttercup" -- what a wonderful way to minimize someone without stooping to obloquy. Have you ever used it before? You really should keep that one in your bag of tricks. Commendable.
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Remember the opinions are like *******s saying? yeah keep that in mind...
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Pot calling the kettle black? I recall a thread in which you slandered young pilots and student pilots for being too inexperienced to be considered pilots (I do not remember your exact words admittedly)
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Pretty strong language. Better back it up.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
I miss spoke, Student pilots rather than young pilots is what I should have said.
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Just the same, accusing someone of slander is serious. Suggest you back it up with a reference or withdraw it.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=604205&postcount=33
and Nick's reply:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=604209&postcount=34
and Ted's reply:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=605095&postcount=64

Remember the opinions are like *******s saying? yeah keep that in mind...
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You do have a point. Unfortunately, I cannot get my search to go beyond 2011, so I cannot see that whole thread. If I recall correctly, someone asked whether he ought to be charged the cost of replacing two new tires after he braked so hard they were down to the treads. If I recall correctly, he posted a photo that showed nearly new tires with several layer of tread burned off. He felt he was being unfairly used by being asked to pay and I felt he was displaying irresponsibility and said so.

1) He asked for an opinion.
2) I gave him mine.
3) Respected people on this board felt I was too harsh and said so.

This rant thread posted a request for opinions.
I have given mine about this rant.
You feel I'm being unfair. OK.

I have other strongly held opinions that have been seen on this board.
1) Guns do not belong in the Oshkosh museum or the Gaston's bar.
2) Children do not need to be hit.
3) Abortion should be decided by a woman and her physician, not by politicians.
4) Pilots are better people than average.
 
And I agree with your other points fully, I just felt like you too have been a bully at some times... admittedly as I am doing so now so it is always good to put yourself in others' shoes.
 
Captain said:
Wtf, how am I the bad guy on that Sara thread?? She takes years and 5 check rides and spends 50K on a PPl and then comes here and posts TWO self congragraitory threads, one of which claiming she obtained more experiance than "most" ever will.

I simply ask wtf that's supposed to mean and everyone jumps on ME? I left all that other crap alone. Didn't say a word. Phrased the question in the nicest conceivable way and still, I'm the bad guy...really??
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Do you think the first paragraph of this post was phrased in the "nicest conceivable way"? Sara found some of her experiences daunting, even if they might seem insignificant to you based on your perspective. So what? Is it a contest? Does it need to be backed up by facts?

You post a comment and it's fair game for rebuttal whether it's you, me, or anyone else here.
 
One thing text does not convey is the intended tone of voice in a response. It is certainly a drawback to these threads, and one it seems everyone either has or will be mistaken about. It seems this vent/rant thread is a direct result of that, especially if captain intended no foul or harm in asking ap for clarification of her statement.
OH, my popcorn is done...
 
Everskyward said:
Do you think the first paragraph of this post was phrased in the "nicest conceivable way"? Sara found some of her experiences daunting, even if they might seem insignificant to you based on your perspective. So what? Is it a contest? Does it need to be backed up by facts?

You post a comment and it's fair game for rebuttal whether it's you, me, or anyone else here.
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Who ever implied "wtf, how am I the bad guy on that Sara thread??" was phrased in the nicest conceivable way? I titled the thing a "Vent Thread".

Look, she's made post after post holding herself up as a beacon to struggling students. Here's the thing. Not everybody in the world is cut out to be a pilot. The problem is that given enough time and money anybody can be. What's Sara going to be in a year? Will she be better or worse? Will she be safe tomorrow or next month? Based on her performance so far I'd say it's fair to question.

If I were her I'd be embarrassed. For some reason she wears it as a badge of honor. That's the cold hard truth. Is it PC? Nope. But its the way it is. For anybody who thinks I'm just being mean for the sake of being mean let me ask you this, would you let your kids or spouse go fly with her?

And we have to share the skies with her. I'd pay $100 to ForeFlight to put a dot on the map showing me where she is at all times. That's not being mean, it's being honest. Sorry if that hurts feelings. I just hope she doesn't hurt herself or, God forbid, anyone else.
 
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I've had pilots PM me with similar concerns. About me. I know with limited hours I'm not the best.
 
Captain said:
Who ever implied "wtf, how am I the bad guy on that Sara thread??" was phrased in the nicest conceivable way?

Look, she's made post after post holding herself up as a beacon to struggling students. Here's the thing. Not everybody in the world is cut out to be a pilot. The problem is that given enough time and money anybody can be. What's Sara going to be in a year? Will she be better or worse? Will she be safe tomorrow or next month? Based on her performance so far I'd say it's fair to question.

If I were her I'd be embarrassed. For some reason she wears it as a badge of honor. That's the cold hard truth. Is it PC? Nope. But its the way it is. For anybody who thinks I'm just being mean for the sake of being mean let me ask you this, would you let your kids or spouse go fly with her?

And we have to share the skies with her. I'd pay $100 to ForeFlight to put a dot on the map showing me where she is at all times. That's not being mean, it's being honest. Sorry if that hurts feelings. I just hope she doesn't hurt herself or, God forbid, anyone else.
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You aren't even trying to do better. Obviously you don't care if you hurt someone else...
 
Sometimes people who have to work hard for something appreciate it more than those who find it easy.
 
Captain said:
Look, she's made post after post holding herself up as a beacon to struggling students. Here's the thing. Not everybody in the world is cut out to be a pilot. The problem is that given enough time and money anybody can be. What's Sara going to be in a year? Will she be better or worse? Will she be safe tomorrow or next month? Based on her performance so far I'd say it's fair to question.
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You aren't alone in that sentiment. I agree, it is fair to question - I also wonder how she would handle an emergency. They do happen.
 
Captain said:
Who ever implied "wtf, how am I the bad guy on that Sara thread??" was phrased in the nicest conceivable way? I titled the thing a "Vent Thread".

Look, she's made post after post holding herself up as a beacon to struggling students. Here's the thing. Not everybody in the world is cut out to be a pilot. The problem is that given enough time and money anybody can be. What's Sara going to be in a year? Will she be better or worse? Will she be safe tomorrow or next month? Based on her performance so far I'd say it's fair to question.

If I were her I'd be embarrassed. For some reason she wears it as a badge of honor. That's the cold hard truth. Is it PC? Nope. But its the way it is. For anybody who thinks I'm just being mean for the sake of being mean let me ask you this, would you let your kids or spouse go fly with her?

And we have to share the skies with her. I'd pay $100 to ForeFlight to put a dot on the map showing me where she is at all times. That's not being mean, it's being honest. Sorry if that hurts feelings. I just hope she doesn't hurt herself or, God forbid, anyone else.
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I wonder, how does one acquire the ability to size up other pilots over the Internet without even flying with them?
 
DavidWhite said:
You aren't alone in that sentiment. I agree, it is fair to question - I also wonder how she would handle an emergency. They do happen.
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David -
We know you can handle an emergency. You told us.
Is it fair to speculate whether someone else can? No.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I've had pilots PM me with similar concerns. About me. I know with limited hours I'm not the best.
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Isn't it amazing how perfect other pilots are on the internet. I really have a tough time with contacting someone on the internet and telling them they aren't good enough. Sheesh, it might be human nature to question other folks ability but a DPE flew with the person and said something along the lines of "good enough."

I know the checkride process isn't perfect since some folks do bend metal in the first 100 hours but it is a heck of a lot better than internet voting!
 
hopmedic said:
Looked at Captain's profile out of curiosity. Here is what I saw:

From what little I've been here, I can't for the life of me figure out why...
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Looks like Captain has several friends. I guess it's those of us who agree he had a point.

We should be encouraging, but I do notice that, as a community, we tend to sugar coat things frequently. There are some people on here who, by their posts, have indicated to me that they simply shouldn't fly. This doesn't mean they're bad people or otherwise idiots. I shouldn't be a surgeon. Understanding this, I have chosen other professions and hobbies. I probably could have muscled my way through medical school if I wanted to, but the end result would not have been good for me or my (soon to be dead) patients.
 
Ted has a good point. Sugar coating can get you and others killed. There should be a balance of encouragement, with cautious optimism, but to mislead someone and give them a false sense of security with multiple, dubious pats on the back is counter-productive and potentially dangerous.
 
Anthony said:
Ted has a good point. Sugar coating can get you and others killed. There should be a balance of encouragement, with cautious optimism, but to mislead someone and give them a false sense of security with multiple, dubious pats on the back is counter-productive and potentially dangerous.
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Ultimately it hurts everyone. The sugar-coated person gets killed, potentially passengers, and more people think that GA is unsafe from the media reports.

"A man's gotta know his limitations."
 
Anthony said:
Ted has a good point. Sugar coating can get you and others killed. There should be a balance of encouragement, with cautious optimism, but to mislead someone and give them a false sense of security with multiple, dubious pats on the back is counter-productive and potentially dangerous.
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:yeahthat:
 
Sorry some of you feel I'm unsafe. I regret posting some of my stories and whatnot. My husband/CFI/DPE/local friends disagree and those are the opinions that matter the most to me. Free country thankfully so if you don't want to fly with me that's your right. I won't make any of you do it.
 
Captain, Ted, Anthony, I was determined to stay out of this. You may remember an earlier thread about instructors that I started. I tried to make the point about how low the bar is set for the instructor rating. I got flamed repeatedly. I could never get my point over that many instructors are very experienced and proficient pilots but, not because they are instructors. Also, there are many experience and proficient pilots that are not instructors and would not make good instructors.

IMO this thinking trickles down into the student ranks. To me the elephant in the room at POA is exactly as Captain, Ted, and Anthony pointed out. The elephant is, it is not that hard to get a private license. It ain't rocket science or brain surgery. To pat someone on the back for doing poorly does no one any good. There are good reasons for taking an inordinate amount of instruction to get the private. Maybe the student had a car wreck and had to interupt training for a year. Perhaps the money ran out, family issues. That I understand. A pat on the back for not giving up due to issues like this is deserved.

Ted's analogy of med school is right on target. I could encourage Ted, push him to not give up and perhaps he could eventually get through med school. Perhaps we shoulod encourage Ted to specilaze in brain surgery. Push a little harder, hang in there Ted. 15 years later, lots of hard work, much training and he finally meets the minimum standards. Way to go Ted. Which of you will be first in line to be treated by Ted?

Maybe, just maybe if you have 100 hours TT and you are not ready for a private check ride you might want to step back and think this through. As was stated not everyone is cut out to be a pilot, or race car driver, or actor, or surgeon .....

Again, IMO, new private pilots or for that matter old private pilots with minimum times are not qualified to give much advice to prospective pilots or to other new pilots. Once you get past perhaps the 1000 hour mark with 6-700 hours of honest X-country then put your arm around that student or new pilot and mentor them. Tell them what to expect and if called for suggest that flying may not be for them.

I do not think Captain was being a bully. Like others we were curious as to what experiences Sara had that made her special and made her qualified to mentor other students. I think it is a fair question.
I know this is not PC. We are now suppose to reward failure. As long as you tried, the outcome is not important. Like Captain, Ted, Anthony, I disagree.

I stated in an earlier thread since I had hung up flying I was no longer going to get involved in these discussions. I promise to try harder in the future.

Ronnie
 
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The only way to make that post better, Ronnie, would be to put spaces between the paragraphs. Well said!
 
If I could withdraw the "mentor" posting I would. I just think at 1000 hours those pilots don't remember the struggles they went through so long ago.
 
Guess I'll stop mentoring now. (NOT)

I don't think I need 1000 hours to say "congratulations" or "how's the training going?"

Maybe my definition is different and I ALWAYS say to students that they should follow their CFI instructions (like when I took 2 students for a flight I told them to NOT copy anything I was doing and to keep flying as they we being trained to.)
 
Sorry Captain, fixed it.

Sara, there is NOTHING wrong with your post. I am sure it is honest and it is what you believe. It is just that more experience pilots have a different view.

I do remember all of my trianing. I just don't remember much struggling. In fact I had a blast. I would guess it was close to 10 years before I had a BFR. I just kept getting more ratings because I enjoyed the instruction so much. For the most part all of my instructors were experienced pilots who happen to instruct.

It just seems like on POA the favorite pass time is talking about how hard it was to get their private. I have many friends that are pilots and none of them remember anything particularly frustrating or difficult on the private. On some of the advanced ratings the written took a little study, I know on the instrument written I had to take a few extra hours of study to get it all correct in my mind but, again not a grind.

I think this is what Ted, Captaon, Anthony, myself and others find so perplexing. For me at least flying is FUN.

Kimberly, look up the definition of mentor. Asking somebody how is it going, is not mentoring. That is just being friendly.
 
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Not to drag this out to far. But how would a student going for their Private Pilot find anyone to vent to? Should they randomly choose someone. Would be interested to know because MY friends/husband didn't struggle at all with the PPL. I did. That was the only point of my posting. Having someone (a fellow PoA'er) they could turn to and it be encouraging.
 
Sara, what you posted is fine, it was OK, nothing wrong. Looking for encouragement is great. You are IMO missing the point. An "atta girl" or positive encouragement is NOT mentoring. For that, another student, any pilot can do that. It is fine to reach out for that.

Mentoring is when you are asking for advice on how or whether to proceed. I have had a couple of mentors in my pilot career. I was not looking for praise but honest, analytical assesment. How to improve something, change something, or understand something. Honest answers from people who had the experience to help me deal with the problem.

A personal example. I have just resigned from a flying job I love. I hated the thought of giving it up and still do. I found my own replacement and am working with him to get him up to speed. After discussing with one of my closest and most respected pilot mentors I decided it was the thing to do. It was with my mentors blessing, he did not encourage me to give it up but, he understood and agreed in the end it was best. Honest answers from people who have enough information, wisdom, and experience to be a mentor.

Perhaps you were asking for one thing and expecting something else.

Make any sense?
 
saracelica said:
Sorry some of you feel I'm unsafe. I regret posting some of my stories and whatnot. My husband/CFI/DPE/local friends disagree and those are the opinions that matter the most to me. Free country thankfully so if you don't want to fly with me that's your right. I won't make any of you do it.
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There is a huge difference between these other fellows and me. They talk about wanting or not wanting to share airspace. I will be sharing airspace with you, and gladly so.

Some the posters are behaving in an arrogant fashion. Some found their pilot training facile, therefore everyone should. Some passed check rides, therefore everyone should. Indeed.

What really gets me is apparently many feel that it's the physical skills that make a good pilot. I've always thought it was judgement that made a good pilot. But since some of these guys are CFIs and airline pilots, I guess I must be wrong.
 
Ronnie, I'm glad that you are participating here. Hopefully we can convince you to keep at it. :)

For me, the "struggles" of getting my ratings were fairly recent. It's been under 5 years still since my first flying lesson (over 1800 hours and 30,000 gallons of fuel ago). I remember thinking at the beginning, wondering if this was something I could even do. The first flight in a small plane was with someone who was bound and determined to demonstrate to me that flying a Piper Cherokee in VFR conditions was so difficult that only the best could master it. He had me convinced at the time (this is much like me beating an infant in a wrestling match). Clearly I overcame this belief and moved on.

I have mentored people both as an instructor and as a friend. I have had students who I have encouraged to keep going when they felt the need to give up. One of my current clients is actually quite a good pilot who lacks belief in his own abilities, so my job is to go up with him and do confidence-building exercises. I did have a fairly easy time with all of my ratings and I know that some people don't have it so easy. Some people who are fine private pilots would not make particularly good instrument or commercial pilots. There is a line where one must consider whether or not one has the internal wiring to be a good pilot in any capacity. It's like trying to use a 172 to haul 3000 lbs worth of cargo. It simply won't work.

I have also, with these people and with others, provided criticism. This is the job of a mentor. In some cases, I have said "You're right, you shouldn't do that." Or, in other cases "Well, here's why you might not want to do that..." in others "That's a really bad idea, and you're going to kill yourself."

I believe that we, as a community, should be encouraging. I believe that we should also provide a realistic view of what point someone needs to reconsider a hobby or avocation. Along with flying, I love to ride motorcycles. I am decent at it. I'm not the best, I'm not the worst. Some people simply should not ride motorcycles - they lack the physical strength and balance required. A quadriplegic should not ride motorcycles. This, of course, can be difficult over the internet. But to give a pat on the back for doing something sub-standard is not helpful to anybody. Then again, I come from the days when if I screwed up, I was hit - physically or emotionally - and I am thankful to those who did so.
 
steingar said:
What really gets me is apparently many feel that it's the physical skills that make a good pilot. I've always thought it was judgement that made a good pilot. But since some of these guys are CFIs and airline pilots, I guess I must be wrong.
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It is both. The best judgement in the world is worthless if you can't take hold of the controls and make it happen. Similarly, a great stick-and-rudder pilot who exercises poor judgement is a danger. Both end up just as dead.

How would you respond if one of your students in your class failed the same test 5 times, despite repeated instruction? You might tell that student "This simply isn't for you." And having met you in person, you'd probably manage to do so in a blunt, yet humorous, fashion.
 
<rant>

Sometimes I wonder why I even bother to log onto POA. The level of arrogance and know-it-all attitudes have become overwhelming. For a sport that claims "you are always learning" quite a few of you seem to think you've mastered it all and are wiser than the DPE that wrote out others' temporary certificates.

The NTSB records are chock-full of 2000 hour ATP's doing stupid stuff and getting caught or hurt or dead. I'll wager that a fair number of you experts would have a seriously hard time passing a PP knowledge test, oral and checkride with a day's notice.

Give the rookies a break. You were one once.

</rant> Sorry.
 
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