EAA bans guns at OSH

I respect the EAA to forbid guns on their property, I hope they respect my right to spend my money elsewhere.
 
Henning said:
Now, say that you allow carry, now your security force is handicapped in their reaction because they have to determine the intent of the weapon and the likelihood of an accidental death goes up.

I'd also like to know if EAA's insurer had something to that rule as well.
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I disagree with that assessment. Any gun in open sight is a bad gun, there are only 3 scenarios where this could occur.
  1. The gun holder has evil intent (bad)
  2. The gun holder is licensed but brandishing (still bad)
  3. The gun holder is actively shooting another "evil intent" gun holder, in which case the security guard had better be enroute and disarm both of them until they can figure out who is who.
The Evil Intent holder in scenario 3 will get shot if he resists the security guard because he will point the weapon at the guard in resistance, making himself an obvious "Evil Intent" target. The legitimate CCW holder will, when challenged by the approaching guard, drop the weapon and raise their hands as they should, since the situation is now under control thanks to the arrival of Barney Fife. All LEO's train on friendly/non-friendly discrimination, this is part of their job. Does the legitimate CCW holder stand a chance of being accidentally shot by trigger-happy Barney Fife? Sure he does - but he would not (should not) have drawn his weapon until/unless there was a certain threat to his life from the original Evil Intent actor, and he would rather take his chances with Barney (small chance of dying) and defend himself against Evil (large chance of dying).
 
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airguy said:
I disagree with that assessment. Any gun in open sight is a bad gun, there are only 3 scenarios where this could occur.
  1. The gun holder has evil intent (bad)
  2. The gun holder is licensed but brandishing (still bad)
  3. The gun holder is actively shooting another "evil intent" gun holder, in which case the security guard had better be enroute and disarm both of them until they can figure out who is who.
The Evil Intent holder in scenario 3 will get shot if he resists the security guard because he will point the weapon at the guard in resistance, making himself an obvious "Evil Intent" target. The legitimate CCW holder will, when challenged by the approaching guard, drop the weapon and raise their hands as they should, since the situation is now under control thanks to the arrival of Barney Fife. All LEO's train on friendly/non-friendly discrimination, this is part of their job. Does the legitimate CCW holder stand a chance of being accidentally shot by trigger-happy Barney Fife? Sure he does - but he would not (should not) have drawn his weapon until/unless there was a certain threat to his life from the original Evil Intent actor, and he would rather take his chances with Barney (small chance of dying) and defend himself against Evil (large chance of dying).
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Best response yet..:yesnod::yesnod::yesnod::yesnod: :)
 
airguy said:
Any gun in open sight is a bad gun, there are only 3 scenarios where this could occur.
  1. The gun holder has evil intent (bad)
  2. The gun holder is licensed but brandishing (still bad)
  3. The gun holder is actively shooting another "evil intent" gun holder, in which case the security guard had better be enroute and disarm both of them until they can figure out who is who.
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Which classification does the LEO fall under?
 
airguy said:
I disagree with that assessment. Any gun in open sight is a bad gun...
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Disagree there. It's open carry on private property where I live, and I'd just as soon be allowed to open carry elsewhere, too. Then again, when you're on a 600 acre ranch and all the neighbors know each other, it's a bit of a different atmosphere. There are situations where I would choose to go concealed, but guys with guns on their hips don't scare me. I have good friends that do so regularly.

Ryan
 
Steve Foley said:
Guns don't kill people.

Bullets kill people.
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Only if a PERSON launches them with said device.

Why isn't EAA doing NICS checks at OSH like the background check you have to go through to LEGALLY purchase a gun? Why not pre-screen, and/or then search people like at the airport?
 
Steve Foley said:
Which classification does the LEO fall under?
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When was the last time you saw a LEO in public with his weapon out of the holster and not actively engaged in a confrontation?

RyanShort1 said:
Disagree there. It's open carry on private property where I live, and I'd just as soon be allowed to open carry elsewhere, too. Then again, when you're on a 600 acre ranch and all the neighbors know each other, it's a bit of a different atmosphere. There are situations where I would choose to go concealed, but guys with guns on their hips don't scare me. I have good friends that do so regularly.

Ryan
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That would be my preference as well - but the scenario under discussion here is the air show, which is very public and is not open carry. One step at a time.
 
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Actually the original post was about the museum in general, not about the airshow. It's there and open all year long.
 
JB1842 said:
While I don't have examples of this happening, and don't really have the time to try to research this, we are trained on what to do if we come upon an active shooter situation. We are trained that if someone in plainclothes is in the act of shooting a gun or is armed, does not have anything identifying him as a possible LEO (badge, hat, duty gear) or does not immediately yell tou that he's a cop, you treat that person as a threat. That means you disarm them, cuff them, and then search for ID. In our use of force policy, if we feel that ours or someone elses lives are at risk, we do not have to give a warning and attempt you to put your gun on the ground before we open fire. What that mean, is if I am coming to the scene of a shooting, and a CCW holder is there with his gun out, does not immediatley follows my commands and disarm himself, you will get shot. While I agree that chances of this is slim, it can happen. It's the same a "friendly-fire" incident in combat. Stress is high, there is a lot of confusion, and decisions need to be made immediately. With something as big as Airventure, with a lot of people, an active shooter can cause widespread panic. Responding police will have enough on their hands without trying to figure out if you are a CCW holder or the threat. It's not worth the risk. While someones intentions may be good, situations can go south very quickly. There is too much risk to yourself and the public. I work in plainclothes all day, everyday. Me and a partner were working the streets one time when we saw some marked units roll up to a house. Guy in front started running, uniforms gave chase, we (in the car) drove around the block looking for the runner, he was running between houses. When we saw him 3 blocks later, we jumped out to help. At that time he was tackled by a uniform and 2 others were coming behind. One uniform saw us running up, put his hand on his gun, and started to confront us. We yelled out we were police, and lifted our shirts so he could see our badges. Could the situation gone down differently, yes. And not for the better.
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Josh, thanks for that.

It confirms what I know. Law Enforcement always says it COULD be a problem. I understand that you don't have time to research this. I do. I have. I've spent the last 20 years looking into this.

The short story? Your scenario doesn't happen. It's a fantasy put forward by LE that "it would make our jobs harder . . . " etc., etc.

As for the risk not being worth it? Really? If a nutbar starts killing children on a playground, or shoppers in a grocery store, or . . . fill in the blank . . . and the police have an exceptionally fast response time of three minutes, that's three minutes where the murderer gets to kill people.

When someone on the scene can stop the murders before the cops arrive, that lessens the risks as it reduces the body count. School shootings have been stopped by citizens with their guns (before the police arrived). Church shootings have been stopped by citizens before the police arrived. Robberies and rapes and murders are stopped every day by citizens with their carry guns -- acting before the police arrive.

Yes, there is always the chance that a cop could show up and shoot the good guy because the GG has a gun. That's a risk that we who carry and get recurrent training are willing to take.

For us, the bottom line is that the police are unlikely to be on the scene when it goes south. We either are prepared, or we are not.

When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.
 
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airguy said:
I disagree with that assessment. Any gun in open sight is a bad gun, there are only 3 scenarios where this could occur.
  1. The gun holder has evil intent (bad)
  2. The gun holder is licensed but brandishing (still bad)
  3. The gun holder is actively shooting another "evil intent" gun holder, in which case the security guard had better be enroute and disarm both of them until they can figure out who is who.
The Evil Intent holder in scenario 3 will get shot if he resists the security guard because he will point the weapon at the guard in resistance, making himself an obvious "Evil Intent" target. The legitimate CCW holder will, when challenged by the approaching guard, drop the weapon and raise their hands as they should, since the situation is now under control thanks to the arrival of Barney Fife. All LEO's train on friendly/non-friendly discrimination, this is part of their job. Does the legitimate CCW holder stand a chance of being accidentally shot by trigger-happy Barney Fife? Sure he does - but he would not (should not) have drawn his weapon until/unless there was a certain threat to his life from the original Evil Intent actor, and he would rather take his chances with Barney (small chance of dying) and defend himself against Evil (large chance of dying).
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Well see, that's just the problem that brings about the accidental shooting. Any gun that comes up gets shot, even Walter Mitty's. If a cop see's someone unknown drawing a bead, I expect them to shoot that person without further consideration.
 
Henning said:
Well see, that's just the problem that brings about the accidental shooting. Any gun that comes up gets shot, even Walter Mitty's. If a cop see's someone unknown drawing a bead, I expect them to shoot that person without further consideration.
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That scenario is often thrown up as a reason for people to not carry guns.

With 6 million people now having carry permits, and four states allowing concealed carry without a permit, you would think such tragedies would be common.

Can you cite a few examples of where a cop has shot a permit holder who was in the process of defending herself?

If the cops are so worried about this, perhaps they should change their training to reflect that there are millions of good guys and good gals carrying guns.
 
Before the cop could shoot you - first - they'd have to actually be able to hit something with their firearm. No worries there.
 
jesse said:
Before the cop could shoot you - first - they'd have to actually be able to hit something with their firearm. No worries there.
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And before they could do that, they would actually have to BE THERE where the crime was occurring in the first place - which would mean that there would be no need for the CCW holder to draw.

The reality is the cops show up to clean up the mess and talk to the survivors, and figure out if the dead guy was Evil Intent or Victim. Would you prefer to be standing and talking, or lying down and not?
 
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jesse said:
Before the cop could shoot you - first - they'd have to actually be able to hit something with their firearm. No worries there.
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:rofl::rofl::rofl:


Although... years ago during a Sim training exercise one of my Platoon Leaders was plunking every target in the head -- every one.

I finally asked him, "Why not Center of Mass?" (Which was Army-accepted technique).

"They go down faster when you shoot them in the head."

No argument there...

His FT job was City of Philadelphia Police Officer.
 
I work with a number of cops who are really, really good shots.

There are many officers who are not, and who are simply dangerous on the range, but don't make the mistake of thinking that all cops are bad shots.
 
Tom Gresham said:
I work with a number of cops who are really, really good shots.

There are many officers who are not, and who are simply dangerous on the range, but don't make the mistake of thinking that all cops are bad shots.
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It was a joke. The police officers I grew up around had no idea how to properly handle a firearm. I understand many aren't like that - but a good chunk of them are.
 
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Henning said:
...OTOH a person that won't go into the EAA museum or to Airventure because they are not allowed to carry a gun, THAT defines irrational.
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Or maybe they're just wanting to make a statement that they don't want to patronize an establishment that has a policy they disagree with. It doesn't make it irrational.
 
Witmo said:
Or maybe they're just wanting to make a statement that they don't want to patronize an establishment that has a policy they disagree with. It doesn't make it irrational.
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Exactly right. I don't vote for politicians who have policies I don't like either. I know - go figure, right? :goofy:
 
airguy said:
I disagree with that assessment. Any gun in open sight is a bad gun, there are only 3 scenarios where this could occur.
  1. The gun holder has evil intent (bad)
  2. The gun holder is licensed but brandishing (still bad)
  3. The gun holder is actively shooting another "evil intent" gun holder, in which case the security guard had better be enroute and disarm both of them until they can figure out who is who.
The Evil Intent holder in scenario 3 will get shot if he resists the security guard because he will point the weapon at the guard in resistance, making himself an obvious "Evil Intent" target. The legitimate CCW holder will, when challenged by the approaching guard, drop the weapon and raise their hands as they should, since the situation is now under control thanks to the arrival of Barney Fife. All LEO's train on friendly/non-friendly discrimination, this is part of their job. Does the legitimate CCW holder stand a chance of being accidentally shot by trigger-happy Barney Fife? Sure he does - but he would not (should not) have drawn his weapon until/unless there was a certain threat to his life from the original Evil Intent actor, and he would rather take his chances with Barney (small chance of dying) and defend himself against Evil (large chance of dying).
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I really hope you never come to PA , where open carry is legal , no license requirement to do so outside a city of first class AND there is no such law on the books for brandishing.
 
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N801BH said:
You are kiddin..... Right. :dunno::dunno:
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Nope, I walked into the Udvar Hazy center @ IAD innocently carrying my legal to carry 2.9" pocket knife. The guard spotted it clipped into my jeans pocket took it from me, looked at it, and told me "don't let anybody see that" and handed it back to me.
 
Henning said:
Well see, that's just the problem that brings about the accidental shooting. Any gun that comes up gets shot, even Walter Mitty's. If a cop see's someone unknown drawing a bead, I expect them to shoot that person without further consideration.
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That is so full of fail it is not even funny. For someone who is shooting at the hip about this whole subject just wants cops to shoot someone on site , WITHOUT proper target acquisition? What if that person , who is unknown to the cop , just happens to be an off duty LEO or plain clothes officer.


Who needs the psych eval here .........:rolleyes2:
 
Tom Gresham said:
I would be interested to hear of examples. I've heard law enforcement folks say this for years -- you have a good chance of being shot by the police.

More than 6,000,000 Americans have carry permits. Several studies have reported that self-defense gun uses number as high as 2.5 million times per year.

Do you have any examples of people with carry permits being shot by the police in the confusion of "who is the bad guy?" It seems to be a favorite scenario painted by LE -- especially when talking about carry on school grounds -- but with more than 20 years of history since Florida kicked off the modern carry movement, I've not heard of this happening.

If you could cite a few cases, that would be helpful.
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Tom, it's great to see you here again! Any new shows (flying or otherwise) on the horizon?
 
Tom Gresham said:
I work with a number of cops who are really, really good shots.

There are many officers who are not, and who are simply dangerous on the range, but don't make the mistake of thinking that all cops are bad shots.
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Tom, You're absolutely right, some are good shots, but as you really well know, the majority are not. You and I are really in the minority here, which is why I don't respond more. It's a shame that more people don't realize that our rights are being chipped away so slowly that people don't even realize it. Kind of like boiling the frog - he doesn't even know it until he's cooked....

Tom, thanks for all that you do in trying to protect and promote our 2nd Amendment rights.

Joyce
 
How hard would it be to walk around Airventure all day dressed like a WW-2 vintage American soldier and carrying a fully loaded M1 Carbine? I'm guessing not that hard. :rofl:
 
jlwilson said:
Tom, You're absolutely right, some are good shots, but as you really well know, the majority are not. You and I are really in the minority here, which is why I don't respond more. It's a shame that more people don't realize that our rights are being chipped away so slowly that people don't even realize it. Kind of like boiling the frog - he doesn't even know it until he's cooked....

Tom, thanks for all that you do in trying to protect and promote our 2nd Amendment rights.

Joyce
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Joyce,

I don't think you and Tom are in the minority here or in the aviation community. The fight for GA freedom and 2A Rights, have many parallels.

Keep up the fight and keep posting! We want informed professionals here.

Tom, great to see you back as well!
 
jesse said:
It was a joke. The police officers I grew up around had no idea how to properly handle a firearm. I understand many aren't like that - but a good chunk of them are.
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I trained at the FBI training facility next to the Great Lakes Naval Training Center a number of years ago. The FBI trainers I met with said that one of their biggest concerns was the large number of local LEOs who come there for occasional (semi-annual or annual?) qualification or training. They said that many of them never train beyond the absolute minimum, and their concern was not just on the range, but how they handle the weapons in general.

Obviously there are LEOs who take this seriously, but apparently there are many who do not.
 
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Henning said:
I am SO glad you found that first one!!! That was no negligence I watched that whole thing play out live in San Diego. That was an execution. It only aired once, nobody ever said another word about it; a lot like when something big exploded under Point Loma.:eek:
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The bullet hit on the ground next to the guy. You can see after it fires that he is OK. Other then maybe some fragments from the ground and his ears.
 
jesse said:
The bullet hit on the ground next to the guy. You can see after it fires that he is OK. Other then maybe some fragments from the ground and his ears.
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Did he survive! Lol, it was kinda surreal, I was in my friends dying/dead son's hospital room and that was playing out on the TV.
 
Theres the one where the DEA guy shoots himself in the foot in front of a classroom full of kids -- that's a classic too.


Idiot needed a lesson on keeping his damn finger off the trigger. Especially when holstering a Glock.
 
cavmedic said:
I really hope you never come to PA , where open carry is legal , no license requirement to do so outside a city of first class AND there is no such law on the books for brandishing.
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Why would you hope I never come there? Would you not welcome a fellow CCW holder? Your logic needs some work, not to mention your manners....:confused:

Most CCW states do have anti-brandish requirements, as I'm sure you are quite aware but ignoring while you make snide remarks. I wish that Texas was open-carry in public, but it's not - one step at a time.
 
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