dmccormack
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Dan Mc
"Gun Free Zone" = "You Won't Be Resisted Here, Mister Perp"
EAA bans guns at OSH
- Thread starter Tom-D
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"Gun Free Zone" = "You Won't Be Resisted Here, Mister Perp"
There is a vocal group of gun owners among the population of POA. Please do not be persuaded that they are spokesmen for all pilots or all members of this forum.
There are those of us who are
independent..
self reliant..
more intelligent than the general population..
mission driven..
able to afford higher cost items..
enjoy challanges..
... and don't see a need to promote guns, gun ownership, gun use, gun vigilantism. Usually, we get shouted down by the vocal group.
Anthony
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Anthony
Bingo! It's like an advertisement. Washington D.C.'s un-Constitutional gun laws really had an affect on gun crime over the last 30 years or so, huh?
Tom-D
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That's a very valid point, and the only reason it works for you is because the bad guys can't tell you from us.
If you don't believe me place a sign in your yard saying that "this house has no guns".
I don't need you to protect me. Thanks a lot.
Skylane81E
Final Approach
Or it could be that there is about one gun for every man/woman/child in the nation and therefor those of us who own them are actually quite common
There's a whole lot of truth to what you wrote. Now lets look how often those people screw up with airplanes killing people.
The guns aren't dangerous, the planes aren't dangerous, it's the people handling them that are dangerous.
dmccormack
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Many of us who own firearms are also
independent..
self reliant..
more intelligent than the general population..
mission driven..
able to afford higher cost items..
enjoy challanges..
independent..
self reliant..
more intelligent than the general population..
mission driven..
able to afford higher cost items..
enjoy challanges..
Tom Gresham
Pre-Flight
Interesting. Vigilantism is illegal. I don't think I've seen anyone here advocate doing anything illegal.
When I think of the shooting sports, I think of the fellow I interviewed last weekend. He's part of the Army Marksmanship Unit and headed to the London Olympics. Or I think of Kim Rhode, who I've know since she was 13. Kim will be trying to set an individual record at the Olympics this year. If she gets a medal, she will be the first person in an individual sport to earn an Olympic medal in five consecutive Olympic Games. She got her first (gold) a few days after her 17th birthday. Her event was women's trap, but after they eliminated that event, she made the very difficult switch to skeet, and will most likely medal in that. A most impressive young lady, to be sure.
To think of gun owners as criminals or nuts is about as accurate -- and fair -- as thinking of pilots as drug smugglers.
I don't own guns to protect others. That job is up to you. How you do it, or even whether you choose to do it, is none of my business. Your life -- your call.
When I think of the shooting sports, I think of the fellow I interviewed last weekend. He's part of the Army Marksmanship Unit and headed to the London Olympics. Or I think of Kim Rhode, who I've know since she was 13. Kim will be trying to set an individual record at the Olympics this year. If she gets a medal, she will be the first person in an individual sport to earn an Olympic medal in five consecutive Olympic Games. She got her first (gold) a few days after her 17th birthday. Her event was women's trap, but after they eliminated that event, she made the very difficult switch to skeet, and will most likely medal in that. A most impressive young lady, to be sure.
To think of gun owners as criminals or nuts is about as accurate -- and fair -- as thinking of pilots as drug smugglers.
I don't own guns to protect others. That job is up to you. How you do it, or even whether you choose to do it, is none of my business. Your life -- your call.
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Skylane81E
Final Approach
There's a whole lot of truth to what you wrote. Now lets look how often those people screw up with airplanes killing people.
The guns aren't dangerous, the planes aren't dangerous, it's the people handling them that are dangerous.
I don't know, I think calling a gun dangerous is fair, just the same as a car, boat, bike, plane, fork, shovel, hammer...
None need be feared, just respect anything that has the ability to kill.
dmccormack
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Skylane81E
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Many of them have guns
Tom-D
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I'm not a gun owner because you need protection.
the simple fact is, not knowing who does and who does not own guns is the deterrent.
put the sign up see what happens.
roncachamp
Final Approach
Shouted down? This forum has sound?
steingar
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My University is very publicly free of weapons and simultaneously free of armed invaders. We have hired an armed protective force that does serve as a deterrent to such behavior. We call them police. I honestly feel sorry for some of your guys. You live in a horror nightmare world of your own creation.
roncachamp
Final Approach
You feel your university is "very publicly free of weapons" but it has an armed police force. You're obviously not a member of the group described by AuntPeggy.
The world of gang and drug violence tells us that an armed opponent is no deterrent to crime. They know that their opponents are armed, doesn't stop them from engaging them in drive-bys or raids.
Tom-D
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Va. Tech had campus cops too. how many people died, before they got there ?
Tom-D
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True, but those guys are not usually the ones doing home invasion robberies.
There are many occasions the gun will not protect you, as told to me by my local city police, there is no way to defend against a person who wants you dead. Unless you commit murder first.
gkainz
Final Approach
Peggy - I respect your right to not own a gun, not use a gun, or not carry a gun, and served my time in the military to protect that right.
I just wish the same respect was shown to those of us who do elect to exercise our 2nd amendment rights without, as you put it, "we get shouted down by the vocal group". Seems to me that the anti-gun crowd is typically the most vocal.
roncachamp
Final Approach
It doesn't tell me that. I know the goal of a drive-by or a raid by a gang is not robbery, it's to kill other gang members. A home intruder has a different motive.
steingar
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I suspect most of the participants on this board are free from acquaintances with murderous intent. I doubt strongly I would willingly associate myself with someone who can elicit that degree of loathing in another. I sincerely hope that your conversation with the police was rhetorical in nature.
Someone intent on killing visitors at air-venture wouldn't have a motivation any different from the gang-bangers then. I dont see how the possibility of some attendees being armed would change that calculation.
Many home invasion robberies are drug related, the robbers know that the drug dealers or growers they are going to raid are armed. Doesn't stop them either.
I agree fully that an adequate gun is very useful to have when faced with a home invasion or burglary, I dispute however that it is much of a deterrent.
There are many magical beliefs when it comes to guns, mostly the belief that it somehow protects you against being attacked or shot. If one is concerned about that, doing the paperwork for a ballistic vest and getting in shape is probably going to be more beneficial.
Another interesting aspect are the cases where the presence of a gun in the home turned against the homeowner. Case from Arizona last week:
http://www.yourwestvalley.com/surprise/article_3bfcd520-71e6-11e1-bf84-0019bb2963f4.html?photo=0
Burglar gets into home through unlocked sliding glass door, finds homeowners gun and threatens homeowner in his bedroom with his own gun. Also illustrates the fallacy that 'the guy with the gun allways wins', homeowner threw the guy accross the room, disarmed him and kept him pinned until the police arrived.
A family in MN wasn't that lucky. Drunk drifter breaks into the house to steal their truck, finds homeowners shotgun, kills the homeowner and his son, just leaving the severely injured wife to talk about it:
http://mankatofreepress.com/local/x519299060/Zabawa-trial-Waseca-watches-waits
Among the cases where the homeowner heroically slays the intruder, examples like the ones above are frequently omitted.
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Bob Noel
Your fallacy is thinking that people who own guns do so because they think it will eliminate ALL risks from intruders, etc.
How many of us (still reading this thread) believe that having a gun is a talisman against a bad guy?
roncachamp
Final Approach
True.
Do you see the possibility of some attendees being armed having an effect on the ability of someone killing visitors at AirVenture?
Only if you believe that those who own guns stop at owning one or two.Or it could be that there is about one gun for every man/woman/child in the nation and therefor those of us who own them are actually quite common
Getting back to Tom's question, "Maybe it's worth a separate thread, but I've noticed that there seems to be a fairly high percentage of pilots who own/like/shoot guns and are into the shooting sports.
"Maybe something about personality types who value self reliance, or we just like interesting tools we can master. Dunno. "
The answer is still that the percentage of pilots (small or large) who are vocal proponents of gun use are actively making their opinions known.
Agreed. Now, how do you separate the dangerous people from their toys?There's a whole lot of truth to what you wrote. Now lets look how often those people screw up with airplanes killing people.
The guns aren't dangerous, the planes aren't dangerous, it's the people handling them that are dangerous.
Mike Smith
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Fresh Prince of PrattVegas
Point/counter-point, back and forth. For every example one side of the argument gives, the other side will give one also.
This is simply an ideological subject. One side has their beliefs and "facts" to back them up, so does the other. I read The Constitution to say that I have the right to keep and bear arms and I choose to do so. OTOH, I was taught very early that my rights stop when they cross over and infringe anothers, meaning, private property rights. I have the right to carry a handgun legally right up until I get to your property line where you say I cant. No problem. I either come unarmed are I dont come, its my choice. There is a large segment of the population that should not carry a firearm because they could never "really" use it. They would ignorantly brandish with the intent to difuse a situation, only to make it worse. Training and education are key. I fully respect EAA's right to ban firearms while fully disagreeing with the decision to do so. Like the old saying goes "those convinced against their will, are of the same opinion still"
This is simply an ideological subject. One side has their beliefs and "facts" to back them up, so does the other. I read The Constitution to say that I have the right to keep and bear arms and I choose to do so. OTOH, I was taught very early that my rights stop when they cross over and infringe anothers, meaning, private property rights. I have the right to carry a handgun legally right up until I get to your property line where you say I cant. No problem. I either come unarmed are I dont come, its my choice. There is a large segment of the population that should not carry a firearm because they could never "really" use it. They would ignorantly brandish with the intent to difuse a situation, only to make it worse. Training and education are key. I fully respect EAA's right to ban firearms while fully disagreeing with the decision to do so. Like the old saying goes "those convinced against their will, are of the same opinion still"
Steve Foley
Pattern Altitude
Simple. Ban all the toys.
poadeleted20
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Late to the party, but as I see it, it's their house and they get to decide what people can and cannot bring through the door. Only valid issue I see is those flying in from the Great White North who are required by Canadian regulations to carry firearms in their survival kits. Perhaps a depository can be provided for that small group.
dmccormack
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Dan Mc
Actually, it's the EAA's house, and many of us are dues paying members.
Theoretical possibility, yes.
Very few examples of that happening. At the Jared Loughner rampage shooting, a citizen who legally carried heard the shots and came to the scene. Sees a guy with a gun in hand and is about to engage him when he is told by other witnesses that that person was not the shooter but rather one of the people who disarmed him. That whole 'discerning bad guy by body language' thing failed again.
Is this small possibility outweighed by the potential downsides of having armed individual at an event where alcohol and partying are part of the equation ? Probably yes. Just look at the Gerald Ung incident in Philly. Law-student gets drunk and engages in an argument with some meat-head Lacrosse players. When they give chase and are about to kick his butt, he shoots one of them with his .380 . He was very lucky that the tail end of the fight (where he was on the defensive), was caught by a surveillance video camera. He probably spent 3 years worth of his lawschool tuition on the subsequent trial that ended with his acquittal.
Sure, there are examples where an armed citizen stopped a rampage killing. Most prominently the church shooting, I believe in colorado. Again, if you look closer, the armed citizen was not a random churchgoer but rather a retired Minneapolis police officer, current corrections officer whos specific job (mission) at that church was to provide armed security. Not quite an example of joe-public who goes to the range once a month heroically slaying the evildoer, right ?
Vigilante
- One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.
- A member of a vigilence committee.
"The police are not the first responders. They show up after it's over, in most cases. WE are the first responders, and whatever happens in the first 10 seconds will determine the outcome."
"When someone on the scene can stop the murders before the cops arrive, that lessens the risks as it reduces the body count. School shootings have been stopped by citizens with their guns (before the police arrived). Church shootings have been stopped by citizens before the police arrived. Robberies and rapes and murders are stopped every day by citizens with their carry guns -- acting before the police arrive."
"If I know Im going into a rough area I will carry, if Im staying in a decent area I don't as a rule."
"I really don't carry much, although, permitted. Usually if I do, it's in the car or plane when traveling. There are times, it is appropriate and I want that right (to protect myself--not be a cowboy) just like other rights we have in this country. I don't always exercise those either, but am sure in the knowledge I can."
steingar
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No one put a gun to your head to make you send in that check.
I respect your right to carry and to be vocal. I have the same rights. Thus, I am pointing out that the pro-gun group is not the only group and not the only group allowed to voice an opinion.
Anthony
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Anthony
The difference here is that some believe an inanimate object like a gun, plane, etc can cause damage or danger by itself while others believe that it is the human controlling the object that is potentially dangerous. Count me in the latter camp.
But, yeah it's EAA's house, they can decide, and so can I on attending or not.
But, yeah it's EAA's house, they can decide, and so can I on attending or not.
airguy
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Tom-D
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I think when you re-read this:
Appendix V - Survival Equipment
Operations in Canada
shelter, water, fire and signalling. This section does not apply where the aircraft is being operated in an area and at a time of year such that survivability is not jeopardized. Specific information on the geographic location requirements is included in A.I.P. Canada. A.I.P. information can be obtained by calling 1-800-305-2059 or visiting
Canada does not require a US citizen to bring fire arms into Canada, in fact they discourage it.
If in doubt call the number and ask.