EAA bans guns at OSH

[airbornejohnny]

When people carry concealed, it should stay concealed. There was a friendly fire case not too long ago on Long Island that did not work out so well.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/fed...ikely-shot-by-friendly-fire-from-retired-cop/
Personally, I think if more people in the area (NYC area) were allowed to carry, there would be a better chance the police would show up with the situation neutralized rather than still in progress.
Most of the LEO's I used to see at an indoor range (now closed) were also SWAT officers, which is great, but I always had the question in the back of my mind: "What about the non-SWAT officers who will be the first responders who may need to call in SWAT?"
Not every law abiding citizen addresses the responsibility that comes with gun ownership. Personally, I require myself to practice as much as I can with every weapon I own. Some get used fairly often for pest control, others are not, but I think it is important to keep some skills from perishing. I would think law enforcement would have the same mentality, but unfortunately that does not always seem to be the case.
Any CCW holder that learns from subject matter experts are taught the very same things we are reading in these threads. When the police get there, they are in charge and you do as they say. You are likely to be treated as a suspect until everything is sorted out, and if you perform properly it is likely that you will be thanked by the police. If you walk away with your life, that is a win in itself.
A gentleman I knew was beaten to death a few years ago. Had he been able to CC, I am not sure if he would have done so, either way I doubt he would have gone to work that day if he knew what was to happen to him. That being said, there might be a higher chance of conflict in some areas than in others, but fact is it can happen anywhere and at any time. That murphy guy (the one who has a law named after him) can be a real motherf'r considering things happen when least expected. The Lupy's restaurant patrons would most likely not have gone to eat there the day that nut job showed up and started shooting. Nobody expected it.

 

[Tom-D]

The Seattle area has 1, 9 year old girl in the hospital in critical condition and 1, 3 year old dead from kids carrying guns to school or leaving guns unattended with children.

Gun control isn't about hitting what you are aiming at, it is having the gun under your control at all times.

The 3 year old is dead because the Boy friend left his 45ACP on the front seat while he went into the 7/11 to see why the mother wasn't coming out. Bang, dead 3 year old, unattended in a car alone with a gun. That bastard should be fried, it is those stupid gun holders that make us all look bad.

The 9 year old girl was hit as a gun carried to school in a back pack, was dropped and the gun went off hitting the girl as she passed. The mother, boy friend and the guardian are now all in jail waiting prosecution for allowing the kid to have access to the weapon. I hope they hang the three of them.

 

[Ghery]

The Seattle area has 1, 9 year old girl in the hospital in critical condition and 1, 3 year old dead from kids carrying guns to school or leaving guns unattended with children.

Gun control isn't about hitting what you are aiming at, it is having the gun under your control at all times.

The 3 year old is dead because the Boy friend left his 45ACP on the front seat while he went into the 7/11 to see why the mother wasn't coming out. Bang, dead 3 year old, unattended in a car alone with a gun. That bastard should be fried, it is those stupid gun holders that make us all look bad.

The 9 year old girl was hit as a gun carried to school in a back pack, was dropped and the gun went off hitting the girl as she passed. The mother, boy friend and the guardian are now all in jail waiting prosecution for allowing the kid to have access to the weapon. I hope they hang the three of them.

No argument on either of these. And in the second one at least the mother was a convicted felon, prohibited by federal law from possessing or even attempting to possess a firearm. Some folks need to locked up and the key thrown away.

 

[Anthony]

That scenario is often thrown up as a reason for people to not carry guns.

With 6 million people now having carry permits, and four states allowing concealed carry without a permit, you would think such tragedies would be common.

Can you cite a few examples of where a cop has shot a permit holder who was in the process of defending herself?

If the cops are so worried about this, perhaps they should change their training to reflect that there are millions of good guys and good gals carrying guns.

Spot on. Just needs to be repeated.

 

[cavmedic]

Why would you hope I never come there? Would you not welcome a fellow CCW holder? Your logic needs some work, not to mention your manners....

Most CCW states do have anti-brandish requirements, as I'm sure you are quite aware but ignoring while you make snide remarks. I wish that Texas was open-carry in public, but it's not - one step at a time.

Because you state this .

Any gun in open sight is a bad gun,

there are only 3 scenarios where this could occur.

1. The gun holder has evil intent (bad)
2. The gun holder is licensed but brandishing (still bad)
3. The gun holder is actively shooting another "evil intent" gun holder, in which case the security guard had better be enroute and disarm both of them until they can figure out who is who.

So when you come to PA, there is a good chance that you will see open non concealed guns. Guns resting peacefully in their holsters where all can see.
This falls into your points. Just because a gun is visible , does not mean it is brandishing. So if this is what you say is bad , then you shouldn't travel to PA where some of these things are Legal.

Nothing snide or bad manners there. Just stating obvious points.

 

[Anthony]

Honestly, I've lived in PA, CO, KY, CA, and FL, and I have never seen a person Open Carrying. Lived in PA most of the time, and same. It is just not that common in urban/sub-urban areas. I have OC'd but in deep woods/camping scenarios. BTW, not against Open Carry at all.

I know Open Carrying is NOT brandishing. I think the problems arise when it comes out of the holster for the wrong reasons. It does depend on state law.

 

[somorris]

Tom, You're absolutely right, some are good shots, but as you really well know, the majority are not. You and I are really in the minority here, which is why I don't respond more. It's a shame that more people don't realize that our rights are being chipped away so slowly that people don't even realize it. Kind of like boiling the frog - he doesn't even know it until he's cooked....

Tom, thanks for all that you do in trying to protect and promote our 2nd Amendment rights.

Joyce, I think you are right on. I thank Tom and you and many others for your efforts to keep the citizens of the United States free.

 

[AuntPeggy]

I would be interested to hear of examples. I've heard law enforcement folks say this for years -- you have a good chance of being shot by the police.

More than 6,000,000 Americans have carry permits. Several studies have reported that self-defense gun uses number as high as 2.5 million times per year.

Do you have any examples of people with carry permits being shot by the police in the confusion of "who is the bad guy?" It seems to be a favorite scenario painted by LE -- especially when talking about carry on school grounds -- but with more than 20 years of history since Florida kicked off the modern carry movement, I've not heard of this happening.

If you could cite a few cases, that would be helpful.

Five minutes of google search found these. Sorry I cannot show you more, but must go to work.

http://www.longislandpress.com/2011...enly-kills-nassau-officer-in-massapequa-park/
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5840352
http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20100117/lead/lead3.html

 

[jtheune]

Five minutes of google search found these. Sorry I cannot show you more, but must go to work.

http://www.longislandpress.com/2011...enly-kills-nassau-officer-in-massapequa-park/
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5840352
http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20100117/lead/lead3.html

YOu found 3 stories but none of them fit the requested information. The first story tells of a shooting where 10 minutes after the original shooting a plain clothes officers walks up carrying a rifle and is shoot by a MTA cop. No heat of the moment, just a screw up. The second story is abut a police response to a suicide attempt where the caller was shot by police with what was supposed to be bean bag rounds but one turned out to be a projectile. Again not relavent. The third story is from Jamaica where a cop who had been suspended from the police force for a year give chase to a thief and fires a warning shot and then is shot by real police. marginally relavent but a example of a cop who should not have been on the force in the first place. You don't fire warning shots, either shoot or don't shoot.

 

[Anthony]

YOu found 3 stories but none of them fit the requested information. The first story tells of a shooting where 10 minutes after the original shooting a plain clothes officers walks up carrying a rifle and is shoot by a MTA cop. No heat of the moment, just a screw up. The second story is abut a police response to a suicide attempt where the caller was shot by police with what was supposed to be bean bag rounds but one turned out to be a projectile. Again not relavent. The third story is from Jamaica where a cop who had been suspended from the police force for a year give chase to a thief and fires a warning shot and then is shot by real police. marginally relavent but a example of a cop who should not have been on the force in the first place. You don't fire warning shots, either shoot or don't shoot.

Good job John. Misinformation, and disinformation is counter-productive in these types of discussions. Thanks.

 

[Tom Gresham]

Tom, it's great to see you here again! Any new shows (flying or otherwise) on the horizon?

Stan, probably no more aviation shows. The industry (?) won't support it in advertising, and I have little interest in doing the fake "reality" shows.

We have two series on firearms. Guns & Gear and Gun Talk TV. Both run on NBC Sports Network and Pursuit Channel. We are in full production on both right now, so I'm shooting guns and cameras all the time these days.

And . . . just bought a B55 Baron! Going through the process of sorting out the stuff the previous owner let slide.

Back to this topic, about 30 percent of the people getting carry permits these days are women, and many people buying guns recently (last 4 years) are first-time gun owners. The demo of gun buyers has changed People everywhere have realized that they are the primary source of security.

The police are not the first responders. They show up after it's over, in most cases. WE are the first responders, and whatever happens in the first 10 seconds will determine the outcome.

It was always this way, but many people have only recently figured it out.

 

[dmccormack]

I know Open Carrying is NOT brandishing. I think the problems arise when it comes out of the holster for the wrong reasons. It does depend on state law.

I'd say it depends on:

• Location and situation
• Local police attitude
• Local prevailing response

So walking down Market Street in Philadelphia at noon with an exposed holster will cause some problems.

Riding a quad down a public road with a rifle laying across the handlebars will have zero reaction in Fayette County.

 

[MSPAviator]

The police are not the first responders. They show up after it's over, in most cases. WE are the first responders, and whatever happens in the first 10 seconds will determine the outcome.

I mostly agree, but I think it's more like 1-5 seconds.

 

[Anthony]

Dan,

I am not talking about perception by citizens, or police. I am talking about the law. It is perfectly legal to Open Carry in Philadelphia if you have a CCW permit. Ironic huh? However, you could get hassled wrongly by police or cause panice from uninformed people. This is not the issue at hand.

Brandishing is when you WILLFULLY attempt to intimidate showing that you have a gun. It could be opening your jacket, showing a holstered gun, it could be taking it out of the holster to show another person in an intimidating manner you are armed. See the difference?

 

[dmccormack]

Dan,

I am not talking about perception by citizens, or police. I am talking about the law. It is perfectly legal to Open Carry in Philadelphia if you have a CCW permit. Ironic huh? However, you could get hassled wrongly by police or cause panice from uninformed people. This is not the issue at hand.

Brandishing is when you WILLFULLY attempt to intimidate showing that you have a gun. It could be opening your jacket, showing a holstered gun, it could be taking it out of the holster to show another person in an intimidating manner you are armed. See the difference?

Oh I agree completely, and wish I had deep enough pockets to challenge the inconsistencies.

But I don't.

 

[Tom Gresham]

Dan,

I am not talking about perception by citizens, or police. I am talking about the law. It is perfectly legal to Open Carry in Philadelphia if you have a CCW permit. Ironic huh? However, you could get hassled wrongly by police or cause panice from uninformed people. This is not the issue at hand.

Brandishing is when you WILLFULLY attempt to intimidate showing that you have a gun. It could be opening your jacket, showing a holstered gun, it could be taking it out of the holster to show another person in an intimidating manner you are armed. See the difference?

Just be aware that these are state laws, and they vary state-to-state.

Back to the original issue -- I'd like to have EAA tell us -- the members -- WHY they chose to adopt a "no legal guns" policy. Illegal guns will still be there. This policy simply says that if you are law-abiding, and have jumped through the hoops of being trained, photographed, fingerprinted, had the background check done, and paid the fees . . . well, we don't trust you.

Sure, the criminals who always carry and break laws will continue to do so.

Hey, EAA. Given the long track record on concealed carry, and the overwhelmingly positive evidence, WHY have you chosen to do this? Who talked you into it?

 

[weilke]

So walking down Market Street in Philadelphia at noon with an exposed holster will cause some problems.

It has become sort a sport for people to do just that, trying to goad Philly PD to confront them so they can then file another lawsuit against the city.

 

[dmccormack]

It has become sort a sport for people to do just that, trying to goad Philly PD to confront them so they can then file another lawsuit against the city.

Really? I've been walking from 30th St Station to 1234 Market 5-10 days a month for nearly a year now and have yet to see anyone open carrying.

 

[airguy]

Because you state this .


So when you come to PA, there is a good chance that you will see open non concealed guns. Guns resting peacefully in their holsters where all can see.
This falls into your points. Just because a gun is visible , does not mean it is brandishing. So if this is what you say is bad , then you shouldn't travel to PA where some of these things are Legal.

Nothing snide or bad manners there. Just stating obvious points.

You're splitting hairs. A gun in holster is never a problem and is not what I would consider in this scenario. Perhaps I should have said "gun in hand", but you're still just playing with semantics.

 

[Anthony]

Really? I've been walking from 30th St Station to 1234 Market 5-10 days a month for nearly a year now and have yet to see anyone open carrying.

Yes. Google Mark Fiorino. He was OC'ing legally (had a PA CCW permit) was hassled by police, recorded the episode, and was recently awarded $25K in damages from the Philly Police.

 

[weilke]

Perhaps I should have said "gun in hand", but you're still just playing with semantics.

If you walk down main street in Park Rapids,MN with a shotgun in hand, nobody will even pay you any attention. Maybe they'll ask whether you had a good season so far. Context is everything.

 

[weilke]

YOu found 3 stories but none of them fit the requested information. The first story tells of a shooting where 10 minutes after the original shooting a plain clothes officers walks up carrying a rifle and is shoot by a MTA cop. No heat of the moment, just a screw up.

Actually, if you read up a bit more on that incident, it is precisely the chaotic situation after an incident that would apply to anything happening at a crowd event like AirVenture. The guy got shot because he carried a gun and was not readily identifiable as an plainclothes officer. A retired cop who for some reason had responded to the scene yelled 'gun' and an MTA officer nearby opened fire. Screw-up, sure, still someone ended up dead because the 'good guy/bad guy distinction by body-language' that some here try to rely upon is not that easy once the adrenaline starts flowing.

 

[nddons]

Stan, probably no more aviation shows. The industry (?) won't support it in advertising, and I have little interest in doing the fake "reality" shows.

We have two series on firearms. Guns & Gear and Gun Talk TV. Both run on NBC Sports Network and Pursuit Channel. We are in full production on both right now, so I'm shooting guns and cameras all the time these days.

And . . . just bought a B55 Baron! Going through the process of sorting out the stuff the previous owner let slide.

Back to this topic, about 30 percent of the people getting carry permits these days are women, and many people buying guns recently (last 4 years) are first-time gun owners. The demo of gun buyers has changed People everywhere have realized that they are the primary source of security.

The police are not the first responders. They show up after it's over, in most cases. WE are the first responders, and whatever happens in the first 10 seconds will determine the outcome.

It was always this way, but many people have only recently figured it out.

Ironic, isn't it? You would think Cirrus, Cessna, etc. would give you planes to fly to destinations in their planes. No wonder it's an industry in decline. Anyway, you had a great looking Bo.

Good luck on the new shows. I get the NBC Sports Network on DirecTV, but not sure about the Pursuit Channel. I'll be on the lookout for the shows.

As to this current topic, I find it ironic that anyone would think that anyone visiting the EAA Museum would be "worried" that anyone else is exercising Wisconsin's new concealed carry law; especially in a state where over half a million deer hunters hit the woods each year, with an average of 2.1 hunting deaths per year for the last decade. In fact, there have been only 2 years since 1851 (not a typo) where there has not been a deer hunting death in Wisconsin. With those odds, give me a Museum FULL of CCW holders vs. walking around the state during deer hunting season.

 

[Tom Gresham]

Actually, if you read up a bit more on that incident, it is precisely the chaotic situation after an incident that would apply to anything happening at a crowd event like AirVenture. The guy got shot because he carried a gun and was not readily identifiable as an plainclothes officer. A retired cop who for some reason had responded to the scene yelled 'gun' and an MTA officer nearby opened fire. Screw-up, sure, still someone ended up dead because the 'good guy/bad guy distinction by body-language' that some here try to rely upon is not that easy once the adrenaline starts flowing.

Interesting fact: According to the FBI UCR and other sources, it appears that the police shoot the wrong person five times more often than do non-law enforcement folks.

Different situations, to be sure. Just an interesting data point.

 

[denverpilot]

Honestly, I've lived in PA, CO, KY, CA, and FL, and I have never seen a person Open Carrying. Lived in PA most of the time, and same. It is just not that common in urban/sub-urban areas.

I usually see it outside of Denver. Probably count the number of open-carry I've seen in the Suburbs on one hand. City & County, never. Usually someone going into an indoor range.

Rarely in "tourist" towns in the mountains, but fairly regular in places like Fairplay, Buena Vista, etc.

See it a lot more around trailhead areas where folks are doing equestrian "stuff". Most horseback riders in the backcountry here are carrying, but it's usually in combination with a rifle for bear, mountain lions, etc.

 

[weilke]

Interesting fact: According to the FBI UCR and other sources, it appears that the police shoot the wrong person five times more often than do non-law enforcement folks.

Different situations, to be sure. Just an interesting data point.

- What is the denominator in that statistic ?
- Do police officers have a choice to intervene in a violent situation or an obligation * ?
- Does a police officer have the option to just walk or run away when the shtf ?





*Yes, I know you get all hung up about 'Warren vs. DC', not talking about legalese technicalities but the reality of day to day police work.

 

[Skylane81E]

After informing of pistol my fater was told by the officer
"Good, more people should carry"

 

[Henning]

If you walk down main street in Park Rapids,MN with a shotgun in hand, nobody will even pay you any attention. Maybe they'll ask whether you had a good season so far. Context is everything.

Exactly, there is a time and place for everything.

 

[Tom Gresham]

- What is the denominator in that statistic ?
- Do police officers have a choice to intervene in a violent situation or an obligation * ?
- Does a police officer have the option to just walk or run away when the shtf ?





*Yes, I know you get all hung up about 'Warren vs. DC', not talking about legalese technicalities but the reality of day to day police work.

Don't know what the denominator is. Don't even know what that means. (Flunked math, you see.)

In pure numbers, the cops kill the wrong person more than the general population.

Certainly, the police have a choice. As one told me last week, being a cop is not a suicide pact.

Do cops have the option to run away? For the full volume on that, look in the file labeled "Hurricane Katrina."

Having said that, as I said originally, it's a different situation. For the citizen who is defending herself, it's easy to figure out who is trying to rape you.

For the cop coming into a confusing situation, it's a mess, and that goes triple for domestic violence where the victim can and does turn on the cops.

My point was simply that -- in general -- the armed citizen engaged in personal protection gets it right most of the time.

 

[Tom-D]

I usually see it outside of Denver. Probably count the number of open-carry I've seen in the Suburbs on one hand. City & County, never. Usually someone going into an indoor range.

Rarely in "tourist" towns in the mountains, but fairly regular in places like Fairplay, Buena Vista, etc.

See it a lot more around trailhead areas where folks are doing equestrian "stuff". Most horseback riders in the backcountry here are carrying, but it's usually in combination with a rifle for bear, mountain lions, etc.

Up here the horsey folks worry about being shot by the mountain cash croppers.

 

[cavmedic]

You're splitting hairs. A gun in holster is never a problem and is not what I would consider in this scenario. Perhaps I should have said "gun in hand", but you're still just playing with semantics.

Not splitting hairs , just read it as a gun in plain sight. To me , that is anything non concealed.

 

[weilke]

In pure numbers, the cops kill the wrong person more than the general population.

That is because they are routinely exposed to situations where the use of a gun is required, the average citizen, not so much.

'Farmers suffer more cases of pesticide poisoning than office-clerks' ----> Office clerks are better at handling pesticides.

Do cops have the option to run away? For the full volume on that, look in the file labeled "Hurricane Katrina."

A collection of anecdotes doesn't make something a statistic.

As your friends from the engine management business like to say: show me the data

Having said that, as I said originally, it's a different situation. For the citizen who is defending herself, it's easy to figure out who is trying to rape you.

For the cop coming into a confusing situation, it's a mess, and that goes triple for domestic violence where the victim can and does turn on the cops.

If you know that the two are not comparable, why do you compare them ?

My point was simply that -- in general -- the armed citizen engaged in personal protection gets it right most of the time.

And sometimes they get it horribly wrong. Still waiting to see how the case down in FL plays out where the law-abiding citzen walking through a neighborhood at night ended up dead after he was accosted by a neighborhood hoodlum.

 

[Tom Gresham]

Weilke, you'll have to find someone else to unleash your bad attitude on.

I choose to not play.

Have a nice day.

 

[weilke]

Weilke, you'll have to find someone else to unleash your bad attitude on.

I choose to not play.

Have a nice day.

What is the bad attitude. Facts you dont like ?

 

[Anthony]

I didn't see any "facts". Just supposition, and speculation.

 

[AuntPeggy]

YOu found 3 stories but none of them fit the requested information. The first story tells of a shooting where 10 minutes after the original shooting a plain clothes officers walks up carrying a rifle and is shoot by a MTA cop. No heat of the moment, just a screw up. The second story is abut a police response to a suicide attempt where the caller was shot by police with what was supposed to be bean bag rounds but one turned out to be a projectile. Again not relavent. The third story is from Jamaica where a cop who had been suspended from the police force for a year give chase to a thief and fires a warning shot and then is shot by real police. marginally relavent but a example of a cop who should not have been on the force in the first place. You don't fire warning shots, either shoot or don't shoot.

My bad. Stories about good guy is killed by good cop because he had a weapon in hand was my criterion. Figured the details were incidental to the tragedy.

 

[airbornejohnny]

If you know that the two are not comparable, why do you compare them ?



And sometimes they get it horribly wrong.

How are they not comparable? Police respond to calls that are sometimes still active/in-progress. They are trained and expected to think clearly and make expedient decisions based on the situation they show up to. Have you been to a domestic abuse call? Home invasion call? Officers have to process and sort through the environment to determine their course of action in such a way that any threat is neutralized, and parties are separated and interviewed so as to determine aggressor/defender etc. To do this as "C" where "A" and "B" are still fighting is quite a challenge due to the confusion of such a situation. Heck even "unknown medical" calls can be quite confusing upon arrival.
Cops and CCW permit holders are just as human as the rest of us, and to err is to be human. Sometimes the police get it horribly wrong too.

 

[Tom Gresham]

Maybe it's worth a separate thread, but I've noticed that there seems to be a fairly high percentage of pilots who own/like/shoot guns and are into the shooting sports.

Maybe something about personality types who value self reliance, or we just like interesting tools we can master. Dunno.

 

[N801BH]

Maybe it's worth a separate thread, but I've noticed that there seems to be a fairly high percentage of pilots who own/like/shoot guns and are into the shooting sports.

Maybe something about personality types who value self reliance, or we just like interesting tools we can master. Dunno.

I bet you are on the right track.....

Pilots are 'usually'

independent..
self reliant..
more intelligent then the general population..
mission driven..
able to afford higher cost items..
enjoy challanges..

and most important...

Hate being taken advantage of..

 

[Anthony]

I think there is a lot of truth in what Tom is saying. Bottom line for me is, I will NOT be a helpless victim, nor am I willing to put my family at risk of being helpless victims.

The EAA's policy puts many at risk of being helpless victims. If I take that risk, and I probably will, it will be alone.