Carry the entire medical certificate?

[Gary F]

Only the original certiificate is acceptable documentation of that approval for the purposes of meeting the requirements of 14 CFR 61.3.

Now, who wants to nit-pick that statement?

As I said a long time back, 14 CFR 61.3(c)(1).

Well you initially left off the (c)(1) part but I still can't find the mention of "the original certificate" but I'll keep looking.

 

[BillTIZ]

Well you initially left off the (c)(1) part but I still can't find the mention of "the original certificate" but I'll keep looking.

Nit
If it does not say copies are acceptible, then you need the original.

The text of the paragraph is, "you hold the certificate or other document acceptable to the FAA, and it is in your possession."

FWIW, the other document referenced acceptable would be proof of a military flight physical, accomplished annually. As an example.

 

[BillTIZ]

Oh I see. I can't wait to upgrade, then. But for me that will take five years. Oh well.

No need to rush it. 5years will pass quickly enough.

 

[Gary F]

Nit
If it does not say copies are acceptible, then you need the original.

That is your interpretation. Do you have a legal opinion to back it up?

 

[BillTIZ]

That is your interpretation. Do you have a legal opinion to back it up?

Legal? Sure... 37 years of flying and dealing with the FAA and their NITS and legal interpretations.

But I tell you what, why don't you carry the copies, and then when you get ramp checked, and not only do they not accept the copies as proof. But when they schedule you an appointment to bring the original to the FSDO for them to see, and while you are there they present you with a letter of administrative decision that your certificate is suspended for 45-60 days for failure to compy with 14CFR61.3.

Let us know how that works out for you, and we'll wait to hear how your appeal went.

 

[Gary F]

Legal? Sure... 37 years of flying and dealing with the FAA and their NITS and legal interpretations.

But I tell you what, why don't you carry the copies, and then when you get ramp checked, and not only do they not accept the copies as proof. But when they schedule you an appointment to bring the original to the FSDO for them to see, and while you are there they present you with a letter of administrative decision that your certificate is suspended for 45-60 days for failure to compy with 14CFR61.3.

Let us know how that works out for you, and we'll wait to hear how your appeal went.

That is your opinion but where is the proof? Where does it say that a copy is not acceptable? Can you cite a case where somebody was suspended for not having the original?

 

[rotorhead1026]

That is your opinion but where is the proof? Where does it say that a copy is not acceptable? Can you cite a case where somebody was suspended for not having the original?

DFTT

 

[Gary F]

DFTT

So I am a troll for asking for evidence that an opinion is valid?

Only the original certiificate is acceptable documentation of that approval for the purposes of meeting the requirements of 14 CFR 61.3.

Now, who wants to nit-pick that statement?

I am unable to find the word "original" in the regulation but that post implied that it is.

 

[BillTIZ]

(1) A person may serve as a required pilot flight crewmember of an aircraft only if that person holds the appropriate medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter, or other documentation acceptable to the FAA, that is in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft. Paragraph (c)(2) of this section provides certain exceptions to the requirement to hold a medical certificate.

You must hold the certificate issued under part 67, in your physical possession, or in the aircraft.

Other documentation acceptable would be a military issued medical.

The FAA or AME did not issue a copy, you must hold the certificate that is issued.

 

[poadeleted20]

It says "the appropriate medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter," not "a copy of the ... certificate." Copies are made by the individual, not "issued under part 67 of this chapter." Beyond that, go argue with the Chief Counsel.

 

[rotorhead1026]

That is your interpretation. Do you have a legal opinion to back it up?

Common and accepted legal language and practice. If you're skinned because you could produce only a copy, and argue in court that a copy is acceptable, you will lose. YOU find a legal opinion to back up YOUR assertion; I'm quite comfortable with mine.

 

[LearDriver]

I don't have a problem with that, if someone hands me a copy of their certificates..........

But, I am still going to ask to see the originals.

I normally hand them the photocopies first and then while digging out my originals from the wallet I get told that the copies are sufficient.

 

[Gary F]

Common and accepted legal language and practice. If you're skinned because you could produce only a copy, and argue in court that a copy is acceptable, you will lose. YOU find a legal opinion to back up YOUR assertion; I'm quite comfortable with mine.

I just might get fried. The original medical and SI letter are in a fireproof safe. I keep a shrunk laminated copy in my wallet. I have a full size copy of the medical and SI letter in my airplane. I doubt that anybody could tell that it is not the original or would even care. Unfortunately, I bet there are a few jerks working for the government who might want to make a big deal out of this. If they do then they might want to insure that he or she maintains chain of custody of the inappropriate documents and is willing to spend all of the time and paperwork to make a big deal out of nothing. I am still not convinced that a good copy would not be considered "other documentation acceptable to the FAA". Maybe I will keep start the original in the airplane.:wink2:

 

[RotorAndWing]

I normally hand them the photocopies first and then while digging out my originals from the wallet I get told that the copies are sufficient.

Yea that's cool.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I just might get fried. The original medical and SI letter are in a fireproof safe. I keep a shrunk laminated copy in my wallet. I have a full size copy of the medical and SI letter in my airplane. I doubt that anybody could tell that it is not the original or would even care. Unfortunately, I bet there are a few jerks working for the government who might want to make a big deal out of this. If they do then they might want to insure that he or she maintains chain of custody of the inappropriate documents and is willing to spend all of the time and paperwork to make a big deal out of nothing. I am still not convinced that a good copy would not be considered "other documentation acceptable to the FAA". Maybe I will keep start the original in the airplane.:wink2:

FWIW, when I have done ramp inspections I look for the required documents. I don't ever recall looking at a pilot certificate and checking the date of issue (unless I think something is wrong).

As far as the medical goes, just prove to me you have one. With the new medicals that are out there now it would be difficult to tell what's a copy and which one was the "real one". I write down the info I need and check it (MSAT-A) when I get back to the office before making the required database entries (PTRS). If someone was fool enough to have given me a bogus medical and I found out after cross checking in the database then their life would start to suck at this point.

On a few occasions I have ramped folks who did not have their medical with them. I asked if they indeed had one and to please prove to me they had the certificate, which usually meant going to get it or bring it by the office for me to see. In that event I used it as an educational moment, stressing what the regulations require and why it's important to follow them. I have always found compliance is the best way to handle the situation.

With that said, that's me. I cannot speak for other Inspectors and how they would handle the same situation.

 

[RotorAndWing]

You must hold the certificate issued under part 67, in your physical possession, or in the aircraft.

Other documentation acceptable would be a military issued medical.
The FAA or AME did not issue a copy, you must hold the certificate that is issued.

I've came across a few of those before.

 

[Gary F]

It would be easy enough to print the original medical certificate on anti-copy paper like that used for controlled substance prescription forms. If the FAA really does not want them to be copied that is what should be done.

 

[Ghery]

Obviously I have never used medXpress!

"You will. You will." Yoda

 

[denverpilot]

FWIW, when I have done ramp inspections I look for the required documents. I don't ever recall looking at a pilot certificate and checking the date of issue (unless I think something is wrong).

As far as the medical goes, just prove to me you have one. With the new medicals that are out there now it would be difficult to tell what's a copy and which one was the "real one". I write down the info I need and check it (MSAT-A) when I get back to the office before making the required database entries (PTRS). If someone was fool enough to have given me a bogus medical and I found out after cross checking in the database then their life would start to suck at this point.

They really should get you guys some mobile broadband.

On a few occasions I have ramped folks who did not have their medical with them. I asked if they indeed had one and to please prove to me they had the certificate, which usually meant going to get it or bring it by the office for me to see. In that event I used it as an educational moment, stressing what the regulations require and why it's important to follow them. I have always found compliance is the best way to handle the situation.

With that said, that's me. I cannot speak for other Inspectors and how they would handle the same situation.

That last line bugs me... some standards perhaps? From a place called a Flight Standards District Office?

(I'll put the wink on the end, but it's maddening, really... shouldn't you guys all do your jobs the same? Heh heh.)

 

[poadeleted20]

Yea that's cool.

Copies of pilot and medical certificates are "cool"? How do you know the original hasn't been suspended or revoked?

FWIW, the FAA's instructions to Inspectors on Ramp Inspections say to "Determine if certificates are genuine and legible." I'm not sure how a copy can be "genuine," but I'm willing to learn.

 

[Everskyward]

"You will. You will." Yoda

Probably. My next medical is in May. I'm on the every 6 months schedule.

 

[Palmpilot]

That last line bugs me... some standards perhaps? From a place called a Flight Standards District Office?

(I'll put the wink on the end, but it's maddening, really... shouldn't you guys all do your jobs the same? Heh heh.)

I don't find it at all maddening that there are inspectors who choose to look at things from a practical point of view. 'Letter of the law' types can really be a pain in the rear. It's not that easy to put reasonableness into a book of procedures.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Copies of pilot and medical certificates are "cool"? How do you know the original hasn't been suspended or revoked?

If you would have read his post he said:

I normally hand them the photocopies first and then while digging out my originals from the wallet.......

So he said he had his originals with him. I don't have a problem with that.

How do you know the original hasn't been suspended or revoked?

If I have a suspicion it will take all of 5 minutes to have an answer, we do verify the information. If someone is foolish to present an Inspector with a revoked or suspended medical certificate then it would follow with an LOI after it was determined.

FWIW, the FAA's instructions to Inspectors on Ramp Inspections say to "Determine if certificates are genuine and legible." I'm not sure how a copy can be "genuine," but I'm willing to learn.

It's not hard to determine if a certificate is genuine and legible.

 

[Henning]

My doc just hands me the pre cut down cert, I do a triple fold and stick it in my wallet, all that I'm required I already have a Kastanza wallet, I don't need a whole sheet for no reason.

 

[RotorAndWing]

They really should get you guys some mobile broadband.

We have it. If I choose to take my tablet with me I can verify certificates on the spot.

That last line bugs me... some standards perhaps? From a place called a Flight Standards District Office?

(I'll put the wink on the end, but it's maddening, really... shouldn't you guys all do your jobs the same? Heh heh.)

In this scenario you have to define everything. It's really hard to give a definitive answer unless all the facts are presented.

I don't find it at all maddening that there are inspectors who choose to look at things from a practical point of view. 'Letter of the law' types can really be a pain in the rear. It's not that easy to put reasonableness into a book of procedures.

Exactly.

On a routine traffic stop for speeding would you want the officer to just blindly issue the citation or would you want him to look at the whole situation and possibly let you off with a warning?

 

[Palmpilot]

Copies of pilot and medical certificates are "cool"? How do you know the original hasn't been suspended or revoked?

FWIW, the FAA's instructions to Inspectors on Ramp Inspections say to "Determine if certificates are genuine and legible." I'm not sure how a copy can be "genuine," but I'm willing to learn.

In normal parlance I would say that a genuine copy would be a true copy of a genuine original. A fake copy would be one that was made up on Photoshop. I'm not taking a position one way or the other on what the FAA means by "Determine if certificates are genuine," but If I were king, the inspector's looking it up on line to verify that it was in the FAA database and hadn't been revoked would satisfy that requirement.

 

[Henning]

Copies of pilot and medical certificates are "cool"? How do you know the original hasn't been suspended or revoked?

FWIW, the FAA's instructions to Inspectors on Ramp Inspections say to "Determine if certificates are genuine and legible." I'm not sure how a copy can be "genuine," but I'm willing to learn.

A genuine copy is one that matches the one of record, simple as that.

 

[Palmpilot]

On a routine traffic stop for speeding would you want the officer to just blindly issue the citation or would you want him to look at the whole situation and possibly let you off with a warning?

My city's police department stopped me because of an expired tag a few years ago, and when I apologized for forgetting to put it on, he went to his car, looked it up in a database to verify that I had, in fact, renewed, and let me go on my way. I certainly appreciated that!

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I aways have the full, original issue, medical in my wallet since I need it to drive to the airport.

 

[poadeleted20]

So he said he had his originals with him. I don't have a problem with that.

...but you will see those originals before you're done, right? That's all I'm saying. IOW, all those copies do is add time to the inspection process.

It's not hard to determine if a certificate is genuine and legible.

Right -- and a copy is not "genuine" in that context.

 

[Palmpilot]

...but you will see those originals before you're done, right? That's all I'm saying.

What are you, the Administrator?

WHY are you trying to talk an FAA inspector out of being reasonable???!

 

[Henning]

You take the copy handed to you and you compare it to the copy of, and conditions applied to it as indicated in the official record. Is the concept that difficult?

A notary stamp and testiment is also typically sufficient universally.

I have notarized copies of all my important docs scattered with various people lol.

 

[Henning]

What are you, the Administrator?

WHY are you trying to talk an FAA inspector out of being reasonable???!

Because if it doesn't happen that way his world will crumble.

 

[RotorAndWing]

...but you will see those originals before you're done, right? That's all I'm saying. IOW, all those copies do is add time to the inspection process.

Is there a problem in how long an Inspector takes to do his inspection?

Right -- and a copy is not "genuine" in that context.

It's not your call to make. Just saying.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I aways have the full, original issue, medical in my wallet since I need it to drive to the airport.

That you do!

 

[RotorAndWing]

My city's police department stopped me because of an expired tag a few years ago, and when I apologized for forgetting to put it on, he went to his car, looked it up in a database to verify that I had, in fact, renewed, and let me go on my way. I certainly appreciated that!

We're all human (well, at least most of us ) and we do make mistakes. Do we turn those mistakes into a full blown enforcement or take the opportunity to educate? I prefer the latter personally.

 

[poadeleted20]

Is there a problem in how long an Inspector takes to do his inspection?

Not for the Inspector, that's for sure.

It's not your call to make. Just saying.

No, it's not. But can you give a simple yes or no to these two questions:

1. Is a pilot required to have the original medical certificate available for inspection when exercising pilot privileges requiring a medical certificate?
2. Is an Inspector supposed to inspect that original medical certificate during a ramp inspection when the pilot is exercising privileges requiring a medical certificate?

Now, I've personally seen an Inspector do some of that aforesaid educating when a pilot left his medical home, but the time taken was extended while the Inspector verfied that the pilot did have a current medical and did the "education." And the Inspector indicated to the pilot that while he chose to do that, he could have written the pilot up and effectively prevented him from continuing on the next leg.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Not for the Inspector, that's for sure.

No, it's not. But can you give a simple yes or no to these two questions:

1. Is a pilot required to have the original medical certificate available for inspection when exercising pilot privileges requiring a medical certificate?
2. Is an Inspector supposed to inspect that original medical certificate during a ramp inspection when the pilot is exercising privileges requiring a medical certificate?

But can you give a simple yes or no to these two questions:

That's a silly lawyer game demanding a "yes" or "no" answer to a question that requires an explanation, hence I don't play that.

1. Is a pilot required to have the original medical certificate available for inspection when exercising pilot privileges requiring a medical certificate?

I haven't seen anything in guidance or regulation that specifies "original" when it comes to the medical certificate.

2. Is an Inspector supposed to inspect that original medical certificate during a ramp inspection when the pilot is exercising privileges requiring a medical certificate?

I haven't seen anything in guidance or regulation that specifies "original" when it comes to the medical certificate.

Now, I've personally seen an Inspector do some of that aforesaid educating when a pilot left his medical home, but the time taken was extended while the Inspector verfied that the pilot did have a current medical and did the "education." And the Inspector indicated to the pilot that while he chose to do that, he could have written the pilot up and effectively prevented him from continuing on the next leg.

It's certainly the Inspectors prerogative, no question about it.

 

[Henning]

Not for the Inspector, that's for sure.


No, it's not. But can you give a simple yes or no to these two questions:

1. Is a pilot required to have the original medical certificate available for inspection when exercising pilot privileges requiring a medical certificate?
2. Is an Inspector supposed to inspect that original medical certificate during a ramp inspection when the pilot is exercising privileges requiring a medical certificate?

Now, I've personally seen an Inspector do some of that aforesaid educating when a pilot left his medical home, but the time taken was extended while the Inspector verfied that the pilot did have a current medical and did the "education." And the Inspector indicated to the pilot that while he chose to do that, he could have written the pilot up and effectively prevented him from continuing on the next leg.

There is more to life than the rule book, exercising discretion in ones job is a common thing in the civilian sector.

 

[poadeleted20]

I haven't seen anything in guidance or regulation that specifies "original" when it comes to the medical certificate.

I'll see if I can find someone to help you read the following:

A person may serve as a required pilot flight crewmember of an aircraft only if that person holds the appropriate medical certificate issued under part 67 of this chapter...that is in that person's physical possession or readily accessible in the aircraft.

It may take a few days, so stay tuned...