Need some advice

[jrhilliard]

Mr. Hilliard:

Thanks for sharing with us; it's always valuable to have a view from another point on the aviation compass. Please, feel free to drop in and offer your comments on lots of stuff.

Uh oh...I've got 2600+ posts over at Jetcareers.com over the past five years...I don't know if I can stand to get addicted to another forum

Tristan's like everyone's little sister here (well, everyone but Jesse... ), so I'm glad you had nothing bad to say about her. She has certainly never had a harsh word about your operation!

Good to hear! Aviation is a super small world, both online and off. I try never to burn bridges with anyone for this exact reason.

I have to believe, by the way, that Tristan must surely be the teensiest flight instructor ever...

We're an interesting pair. I'm 5'7" and 135 pounds...up from my college weight of 125. I'm trying to get back in shape this summer, down to 130 or so. Both of us are perfect for the LSA training industry!

 

[wabower]

In my late 20's I was making good progress in the consulting division of a national CPA firm. Unfortunately, their idea of a decent living didn't correspond with mine, so I started exploring lother options. A guy named Tom Hanson wanted me to join a financial services marketing organization, with the pitch that "employers will only pay you what the job is worth. If you want to make what you think you're worth, you will have to be your own boss and prove you're worth more." He was right.

 

[gismo]

I have to believe, by the way, that Tristan must surely be the teensiest flight instructor ever...

Maybe, especially if you're talking GW (girl's weight?) but when I trained for ASEL commercial in the Porterfield I needed a light and small (rear seat is pretty cramped) CFI and found one that lived nearby who I believe was a few inches shorter than Tristan and probably about the same mass.

 

[Tristar]

I'll have to watch Leah if she ever decides to be a CFI. I think she's smaller than me! I'm about 110 lbs.

...hmm...I wonder if you can put a back seat in the Skycatcher.

 

[Henning]

So as I said above, Tristar is great, and from the little bit I've read in these forums, it looks like she's represented our school well. Whatever she decides to do when it comes to work, both in and out of aviation, I hope she does well. I just didn't want anyone to assume negative things about our operation that aren't true. If you have any questions, let me know.

No, I think Tristan's representation of the situation left most people feeling pretty right about y'all. It's a bite in the rear sometimes the balance between doing what we want to do and making a living. I know there was a long period in my life where I'd get 4 hrs of sleep with maybe a couple of naps during the day working in multiple industries. I've gotten too old for that crap, and luckily enough, doing it when I did paid off and I don't have to do that anymore.

 

[jesse]

Uh oh...I've got 2600+ posts over at Jetcareers.com over the past five years...I don't know if I can stand to get addicted to another forum

Resistance is futile.

 

[colohan]

Plenty of folks have come up with good ideas on how to increase revenues -- but have you exhausted your methods for cutting expenses?

I presume you have already gone through ideas such as taking on housemates, moving to a cheaper city or neighbourhood, riding a bike instead of driving, joining one of those "get a crate of fresh farm veggies delivered once a week" programs and cooking up a storm...

(Having completed 8.5 years of grad school living on <$20k/year not that long ago, I still have strong memories... )

Chris

 

[Ted]

I'll have to watch Leah if she ever decides to be a CFI. I think she's smaller than me! I'm about 110 lbs.

You weigh less than my rottweiler. Then again, so does Leah.

Funny enough, yesterday I went to go pick up the dogs at the vet. One of the high school girls (probably only a bit bigger than you) brought both of them up at the same time. They were excited, so they were taking her for quite the run. It was pretty funny, I felt badly for saying I'd take them both at once. Completely forgot about the fact that I know how to handle them.

No, I think Tristan's representation of the situation left most people feeling pretty right about y'all. It's a bite in the rear sometimes the balance between doing what we want to do and making a living. I know there was a long period in my life where I'd get 4 hrs of sleep with maybe a couple of naps during the day working in multiple industries. I've gotten too old for that crap, and luckily enough, doing it when I did paid off and I don't have to do that anymore.

Yep for sure. When I was doing car hauling and Jaguar mechanic in college it almost always meant something in the 4-5 hours of sleep range on weekends. Hard work, but it did pay the bills. Even bought me a motorcycle. Nowadays, I try to avoid doing that more than once a month.

My boss at the Jaguar shop knew I was in engineering school, and kept on saying to me "Stay in school so you don't end up ****ed up like me!" He was a good man and treated me well, especially for someone who didn't know me from Adam when I walked in the door and owed me absolutely nothing. A great job because of what I learned rather than because of what it paid (although I did get paid decently).

 

[jrhilliard]

Yep for sure. When I was doing car hauling and Jaguar mechanic in college it almost always meant something in the 4-5 hours of sleep range on weekends. Hard work, but it did pay the bills. Even bought me a motorcycle. Nowadays, I try to avoid doing that more than once a month.

That's the "problem" with flying for a living...one can't (well...shouldn't) fly fatigued. For a lot of people, simply working more hours is the way to make up for a lack of cash, even if that means losing sleep.

Pilots don't have that option. Especially after high profile crashes like Colgan 3407 (the commuter flight that went down in Buffalo, NY), fatigue is a huge issue. If an accident investigator found out that a pilot was operating on 4-5 hours sleep on a regular basis, it would look really, really bad...both for the pilot who did it and the company that allowed it.

 

[Ted]

That's the "problem" with flying for a living...one can't (well...shouldn't) fly fatigued. For a lot of people, simply working more hours is the way to make up for a lack of cash, even if that means losing sleep.

Pilots don't have that option. Especially after high profile crashes like Colgan 3407 (the commuter flight that went down in Buffalo, NY), fatigue is a huge issue. If an accident investigator found out that a pilot was operating on 4-5 hours sleep on a regular basis, it would look really, really bad...both for the pilot who did it and the company that allowed it.

You shouldn't drive fatigued, either, but it's a reality of the job for many people. For that matter it's a reality of life. How many people get 2-3 hours of sleep (or 0 hours of sleep) and then drive to and from work? Let's think about all the doctors and nurses who get long shifts, swing shifts, etc. and are making decisions on the health of their patients with insufficient sleep.

The danger is less in being fatigued and more in being fatigued past your limits. Everyone has their own personal limits for what they can handle, and that varies highly from person to person, not to mention with the specifics of the situation. I think the issue tends to be blown out of proportion because a few people didn't know their limits and made a bad judgement call that they didn't get away with.

 

[steingar]

Someone had better get creative. The young CFI has bills to pay. We all have to eat. At what she said her weight was I doubt she's having extravagant meals. The lead instructor is right. Business exists to make money. But someone better get really creative and figure out how the young CFI can participate in the business and still eat, or this will end badly.

 

[SkyHog]

When it comes to having the credentials of being a CFII, I don't see anything wrong with the instructor paying for the rating themselves. We have never insisted that an instructor earn extra credentials to keep working for us. But we have pointed out that extra credentials (CFII, high performance, tailwheel, glass cockpit, etc.) will open them up to new customers that might otherwise need to fly with another instructor. If a instructor isn't qualified to teach instruments, we can't assign them an instrument student...simple as that.

Amidst a very good post by you, James, this here is the most disturbing thing I've ever read from an employer.

I cannot imagine the idea of my boss saying "Nick, we have a few projects coming up that involve [insert new programming language here]. In order for you to be able to get those contracts, I'm going to need you to get your certification in that language. Once you get it, on your dime, you can try for those contracts, but in the mean time, we'll have to pass on the contracts.

Truly, every certification I've ever earned (work wise) has been paid for by my employer, because that is what honest, decent, and respectful employers do. If any employer ever tried to make me pay for my own certifications related to employment at that office, I'd leave, quickly, and ensure that as many people knew about the shadyness going on at the office.

But, aside from that, I like the way you came out and represented the other side of this discussion. I don't think anyone had any negative thoughts against you or your flight school (aside from the above about requiring employees to pay for uptraining), but I can understand how quickly this thread could have turned, so you did a good thing, in staving off any negativity.

 

[Trapper John]

I cannot imagine the idea of my boss saying "Nick, we have a few projects coming up that involve [insert new programming language here]. In order for you to be able to get those contracts, I'm going to need you to get your certification in that language. Once you get it, on your dime, you can try for those contracts, but in the mean time, we'll have to pass on the contracts.

Truly, every certification I've ever earned (work wise) has been paid for by my employer, because that is what honest, decent, and respectful employers do. If any employer ever tried to make me pay for my own certifications related to employment at that office, I'd leave, quickly, and ensure that as many people knew about the shadyness going on at the office.

Employers tend to pay for training/certifications when there is a clear benefit to the employer.

Let's say this flight training operation doesn't have a tailwheel trainer in their fleet. Would you expect them to pay for a tailwheel endorsement for an employee when it's not at all clear how much additional revenue, if any, that endorsement would bring in?

 

[steingar]

Pfft. Normally my auto mechanic gives me an estimate and a schedule of repairs. The avionics guy said if would cost what it cost and be ready when it was ready. Same for the airplane mechanics. Aviation has never resembled the rest of the world, I don't see why CFIs getting extra ratings for their employers would.

 

[wabower]

Yada yada yada. Get a grip. Aviation business isn't like IT. Want to fly for Southwest? Show up with a 737 type rating in hand. Want to instruct? Show up with a CFI in your pocket.

Every business has "customs of the trade." If you don't like them, find one you like better. Just don't let the door handle hurt you on the way out the door.

Employers tend to pay for training/certifications when there is a clear benefit to the employer.

Let's say this flight training operation doesn't have a tailwheel trainer in their fleet. Would you expect them to pay for a tailwheel endorsement for an employee when it's not at all clear how much additional revenue, if any, that endorsement would bring in?

 

[jesse]

Yada yada yada. Get a grip. Aviation business isn't like IT. Want to fly for Southwest? Show up with a 737 type rating in hand. Want to instruct? Show up with a CFI in your pocket.

Every business has "customs of the trade." If you don't like them, find one you like better. Just don't let the door handle hurt you on the way out the door.

Where does the average pilot end up getting a 737 type rating and at whose expense did they get it?

 

[wabower]

Everybody I know gets them at Higher Power in Dallas. Pre-study material plus sim course, cost is $7,500 for type rating. In contrast, if you go a couple miles further down the same street and get a G-V type rating at Simuflite, the cost is 6X that of the 737. It's on their nickel and a fairly simple equation. If they don't want to fly for Southwest, they don't have to spend the money for the type rating.

Where does the average pilot end up getting a 737 type rating and at whose expense did they get it?

 

[jrhilliard]

You shouldn't drive fatigued, either, but it's a reality of the job for many people. For that matter it's a reality of life. How many people get 2-3 hours of sleep (or 0 hours of sleep) and then drive to and from work? Let's think about all the doctors and nurses who get long shifts, swing shifts, etc. and are making decisions on the health of their patients with insufficient sleep.

The danger is less in being fatigued and more in being fatigued past your limits. Everyone has their own personal limits for what they can handle, and that varies highly from person to person, not to mention with the specifics of the situation. I think the issue tends to be blown out of proportion because a few people didn't know their limits and made a bad judgement call that they didn't get away with.

I don't know what to say. I don't agree with any of what you said here.

I'd be lying if I said I'd never flown fatigued before. I think every professional pilot has flown fatigued at some point in their career. But the difference is that I look at my times flying fatigued as mistakes that never should have happened, rather than some sort of necessary evil that comes along with the job.

On one occasion I ferried a Cherokee Six from Connecticut to Nebraska, departing at 7 p.m. after being up all day. It's a long story, but the bottom line is that I gave in to external pressures to get the job done, rather than saying, "This isn't safe," and checking in to a hotel like I should have done.

On the final landing of the trip I blew a tire. Thankfully we determined that the tire was simply old and gave out, rather than any mistake on my part. But what if it had been my fault? How would I explain that to the client, that I'd damaged their aircraft because of my decision to fly when tired?

On another occasion I fell asleep during an ILS approach while instructing an instrument trainee. I had been working 12-14 hour days for several days back to back as an instructor. Again, all ended well, but a million "what ifs" could be said for that scenario. What if we'd been in actual IMC? What if there was a loss of separation with another aircraft? What if we landed without a landing clearance? A lot of things could have gone wrong, but fortunately they didn't. It was a big wake up call (no pun intended) to me about how insidious fatigue can be.

There's a good reason we have the IM SAFE personal checklist. Many accidents and incidents have occurred because of not following it.

I can't think of any scenario where consistently getting only 4-5 hours of sleep could be considered an acceptably safe way to operate.

 

[TMetzinger]

Where does the average pilot end up getting a 737 type rating and at whose expense did they get it?

For folks who want to fly for SWA, they have two broad choices:

They can build up the required Part 121 turbine PIC time by being a captain for another operator, and perhaps even get that operator to type them in the 737.

They can build up the required Part 121 turbine PIC time by being a captain for another operator, and save/borrow money to get the 737 TR on their own dime. Last time I looked a place like Higher Power would get around $10K for the type rating.

I know a guy who runs a large international aircraft financing organization. They have a small core of full-time pilots and a larger group of "on-demand" pilots to do delivery/demo/repo work on their fleet. They don't REQUIRE a lot of turbine time to start with them as a junior crewman, but they do require a Boeing or Airbus type rating and an ATP. Technically I could go get the ATP and the 737 rating and be "qualified" to work for him. But in reality I'd be competing against folks who have all that AND thousands of hours as an airline captain.

There have always been more "Technically qualified" pilots than there are pilot jobs. That's why pay for pilots is comparatively poor. And as Walter C says, "That's the way it is".

 

[wabower]

If you're looking for happy endings, I can provide a long list of G-rated movies, but not many stories about the airport. Except for the airplanes, there's not much "pretty" in any part of the business.

Someone had better get creative. The young CFI has bills to pay. We all have to eat. At what she said her weight was I doubt she's having extravagant meals. The lead instructor is right. Business exists to make money. But someone better get really creative and figure out how the young CFI can participate in the business and still eat, or this will end badly.

 

[jesse]

Everybody I know gets them at Higher Power in Dallas. Pre-study material plus sim course, cost is $7,500 for type rating. In contrast, if you go a couple miles further down the same street and get a G-V type rating at Simuflite, the cost is 6X that of the 737. It's on their nickel and a fairly simple equation. If they don't want to fly for Southwest, they don't have to spend the money for the type rating.

..and also some of the pilots got them at other airlines on their dime. An important part worth mentioning

Southwest does not pay for the type rating because they don't have to. There are plenty of pilots that'll pay for it themselves or already have it.

The problem is -- there are plenty of instructors that are already a CFII. A new employee may sound attractive but IME it doesn't matter how good you interview you'll end up with a fair share of bad employees. A bad employee will cost your business dearly. When one has a good employee they can trust - it would make a lot of business sense to help them out with their CFII.

 

[Ted]

James, you were clearly flying past your limits, and you didn't know well enough to know what they were and stop before you exceeded them. Fortunately you didn't die doing it, and I'd agree you made stupid mistakes there. What you're talking about and what I'm talking about are two very different things.

 

[dmccormack]

I can't think of any scenario where consistently getting only 4-5 hours of sleep could be considered an acceptably safe way to operate.

The US Army did a ton of research on sleep and requirements for the average soldier.

Bottom line -- minimum 4 hours per 24 hour period was required -- at 4 hours the research evidenced no measureable lack of performance. There were no interviews, but my guess -- base don long stretches with 3-4 hours max per day -- is the subjects didn't feel all that great and would have preferred more than four hours.

Less than 4 hours and performance dropped off significantly.

Of course soldiers are engaged in physical activity which tends to fend off the more pernicious effects of lack of sleep.

Which is why Army Aviators are granted more quality rest than infantrymen.

 

[Ted]

Which is why Army Aviators are granted more quality rest than infantrymen.

Yep, but I'll betthat during wartime that rest is not so quality and that they're pretty darn tired. Talk about a bad time to be fatigued while flying.

 

[jrhilliard]

Amidst a very good post by you, James, this here is the most disturbing thing I've ever read from an employer.

I cannot imagine the idea of my boss saying "Nick, we have a few projects coming up that involve [insert new programming language here]. In order for you to be able to get those contracts, I'm going to need you to get your certification in that language. Once you get it, on your dime, you can try for those contracts, but in the mean time, we'll have to pass on the contracts.

Truly, every certification I've ever earned (work wise) has been paid for by my employer, because that is what honest, decent, and respectful employers do. If any employer ever tried to make me pay for my own certifications related to employment at that office, I'd leave, quickly, and ensure that as many people knew about the shadyness going on at the office.

The difference with our situation is that we don't need another CFII. If we were actually turning away significant amounts of business because our staff wasn't qualified to provide the training, then we'd have two options--send our current staff to school to get qualified, or hire new staff who already hold the needed credentials. Both options are acceptable, IMO.

As it stands now, if a customer wants to do instrument training, we put them on the schedule with a CFII. If they want to fly their own aircraft, say, a 182 or a Citabria or something, and it requires an endorsement (high performance, tailwheel, etc.) we set them up with an instructor who has the proper endorsements.

If an instructor isn't qualified to provide the training, that's not the company's fault. The revenue is still flowing in to the company...it just isn't flowing in to that particular instructor's pocket. This is why it's beneficial to have any many qualifications as possible when it comes to teaching.

Why is that shady?

 

[Areeda]

Just a few comments on what I've been reading.

It sounds like James is willing to let Tristan start at noon or whatever with a loss of possible students. One comment is many students will be more flexible in their schedules to fly with the instructor of their choice.

I don't personally know any CFIs who've had a flight school pay for ratings. I would guess that the high turnover has something to do with it. Perhaps a commitment to stay with them for a year or more would make paying for the training more attractive.

Joe

 

[jrhilliard]

James, you were clearly flying past your limits, and you didn't know well enough to know what they were and stop before you exceeded them. Fortunately you didn't die doing it, and I'd agree you made stupid mistakes there. What you're talking about and what I'm talking about are two very different things.

So consistently getting 4-5 hours of sleep is safe? I don't understand your point.

The idea of flying after only getting 4-5 hours of sleep is what I was originally trying to address.

 

[Everskyward]

Amidst a very good post by you, James, this here is the most disturbing thing I've ever read from an employer.

You obviously haven't worked in the aviation industry, Nick. There are very few people who have gotten their CFIIs paid for by an employer, actually none that I can think of offhand. When you get higher up the food chain, type ratings are generally paid for by the employer, but there are still some pilots who buy their own in order to be competitive.

 

[dmccormack]

Yep, but I'll betthat during wartime that rest is not so quality and that they're pretty darn tired. Talk about a bad time to be fatigued while flying.

Not really -- at least not in the last 10 years. The Army has been very careful about returning birds to FOBs which provide rest and recovery.

 

[dmccormack]

You obviously haven't worked in the aviation industry, Nick. There are very few people who have gotten their CFIIs paid for by an employer, actually none that I can think of offhand. When you get higher up the food chain, type ratings are generally paid for by the employer, but there are still some pilots who buy their own in order to be competitive.

Yeah, really -- it's not much different in the tech industry, either.

 

[Ted]

So consistently getting 4-5 hours of sleep is safe? I don't understand your point.

The idea of flying after only getting 4-5 hours of sleep is what I was originally trying to address.

For me, getting 4-5 hours of sleep consistently would not leave me in a very good position to fly, so I wouldn't fly. That doesn't mean that it's a universal truth for everyone, I have friends who average 4-6 hours of sleep and are just fine with it. Their bodies deal with it fine, mine would not.

My point is that it is upon each pilot to know his or her limitations and act accordingly. There is a huge difference between flying so tired that you fall asleep on an ILS and doing a simple VFR ferry hop on a nice weather day when you didn't sleep well the night before. Other factors come into play, such as the plane you're flying and familiarity with it, altitudes you'll be flying at (and how they affect you). I do enough no-gos that it shouldn't be a question that I'm advocating unsafe behavior, but I can't accept when people make a blanket statement that something that doesn't work for them can't possibly work for anyone else. Blanket statements and rules shouldn't be the teaching, it should be aeronautical decision making.

 

[Everskyward]

My point is that it is upon each pilot to know his or her limitations and act accordingly. There is a huge difference between flying so tired that you fall asleep on an ILS and doing a simple VFR ferry hop on a nice weather day when you didn't sleep well the night before. Other factors come into play, such as the plane you're flying and familiarity with it, altitudes you'll be flying at (and how they affect you). I do enough no-gos that it shouldn't be a question that I'm advocating unsafe behavior, but I can't accept when people make a blanket statement that something that doesn't work for them can't possibly work for anyone else. Blanket statements and rules shouldn't be the teaching, it should be aeronautical decision making.

Part of the problem in an airplane that you don't have in a car is that in a car you can pull over and take a nap. That's not so much an option in an airplane. You can take off feeling fine and then the drone of the engines...

 

[jrhilliard]

For me, getting 4-5 hours of sleep consistently would not leave me in a very good position to fly, so I wouldn't fly. That doesn't mean that it's a universal truth for everyone, I have friends who average 4-6 hours of sleep and are just fine with it. Their bodies deal with it fine, mine would not.

My point is that it is upon each pilot to know his or her limitations and act accordingly. There is a huge difference between flying so tired that you fall asleep on an ILS and doing a simple VFR ferry hop on a nice weather day when you didn't sleep well the night before. Other factors come into play, such as the plane you're flying and familiarity with it, altitudes you'll be flying at (and how they affect you). I do enough no-gos that it shouldn't be a question that I'm advocating unsafe behavior, but I can't accept when people make a blanket statement that something that doesn't work for them can't possibly work for anyone else. Blanket statements and rules shouldn't be the teaching, it should be aeronautical decision making.

Fair enough. I think we're on the same page.

But I'd still say this: I think the number of pilots who *can* safely fly on 4-5 hours of sleep are far outnumbered by the pilots who *can't*. Therefore, I wouldn't be willing to stake the reputation of the flight school on it by letting an instructor keep such a schedule long-term. Any accidents/incidents they might have would also reflect poorly on the entire company.

 

[dmccormack]

But I'd still say this: I think the number of pilots who *can* safely fly on 4-5 hours of sleep are far outnumbered by the pilots who *can't*. Therefore, I wouldn't be willing to stake the reputation of the flight school on it by letting an instructor keep such a schedule long-term. Any accidents/incidents they might have would also reflect poorly on the entire company.

Good policy and perfectly reasonable.

 

[tonycondon]

only 2600 posts? slacker...

 

[skidoo]

Fair enough. I think we're on the same page.

But I'd still say this: I think the number of pilots who *can* safely fly on 4-5 hours of sleep are far outnumbered by the pilots who *can't*. Therefore, I wouldn't be willing to stake the reputation of the flight school on it by letting an instructor keep such a schedule long-term. Any accidents/incidents they might have would also reflect poorly on the entire company.

Perhaps some of us who can, get 4-5 hours sleep Twice Daily...

 

[SCCutler]

Part of the problem in an airplane that you don't have in a car is that in a car you can pull over and take a nap. That's not so much an option in an airplane. You can take off feeling fine and then the drone of the engines...

I thought you just engaged the autopilot, tuned in the destination ATIS, and turned the radio volume way up...

 

[Ted]

Part of the problem in an airplane that you don't have in a car is that in a car you can pull over and take a nap. That's not so much an option in an airplane. You can take off feeling fine and then the drone of the engines...

I agree. Once again, that comes down to knowing yourself and how you react. Most people are relatively predictable (at least to themselves) as to how they will react to different situations. It's a matter of being self-aware.

 

[taters]

Just a few comments on what I've been reading.
I don't personally know any CFIs who've had a flight school pay for ratings. I would guess that the high turnover has something to do with it. Perhaps a commitment to stay with them for a year or more would make paying for the training more attractive.
Joe

A school in AZ where I trained and taught would give you (the instructor)one free rating per year (xmas bonus) that you worked there...I dont know if they do that anymore but for the people who didnt burn out (super high paced school) it was a sweet deal...(seaplane/tailwheel ratings etc)..but most took them up on the II. ..I think it is important for someone to have skin in the game of some kind for thier CFI ratings etc...but I also think it pays to make invesments in the right people . If someone needs a II at my operation...I will help them out ...but I dont give it away either. my 2c

 

[SkyHog]

You obviously haven't worked in the aviation industry, Nick. There are very few people who have gotten their CFIIs paid for by an employer, actually none that I can think of offhand. When you get higher up the food chain, type ratings are generally paid for by the employer, but there are still some pilots who buy their own in order to be competitive.

I'm not saying its not industry standard, but I am saying its wrong, and its just as much the employee's fault as it is the employer's.

And, as I said earlier, if a boss asked me to pay for job-necessary training out of pocket, I'd balk and walk as quickly as possible. And that is not just in IT.