Police shooting dogs

Everskyward said:
Exactly. While I believe in the right to defend yourself with a gun I also think the burden is on the gun owner not to escalate the situation. Rather than shooting back at the person who shot your dog the better reaction would be to take your gun and try to escape. Reacting in anger is not the appropriate response.
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Lets turn the table on that concept....

You pull up in front of a police station, get out of your car and shoot a police dog that happens to be barking. You then start walking up to the front door of the police station. The police inside witness this whole thing happen... You cannot believe they are going get their guns and head out the back door ?? :nono::nono:

You will be shot dead faster then Oprah can eat a dozen Krispy Kreme donuts. And... the officers will get off, calling it self defense.. IMHO.

Ben
 
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N801BH said:
Lets turn the table on that concept....

You pull up in front of a police station, get out of your car and shoot a police dog that happens to be barking. You then start walking up to the front door of the police station. The police inside witness this whole thing happen... You cannot believe they are going get there guns and head out the back door ?? :nono::nono:

You will be shot dead faster then Oprah can eat a dozen Krispy Kreme donuts. And... the officers will get off, calling it self defense.. IMHO.

Ben
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That's different....somehow.

Take it a step further, police let their dog come after me in what they think is a valid sting (turns out they're wrong, and I am the wrong person). I shoot the dog.

What next?
 
N801BH said:
You cannot believe they are going get there guns and head out the back door ?? :nono::nono:
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No, but the police are trained to apprehend criminals and that is their job. It's not the job of the average citizen.

N801BH said:
You will be shot dead faster then Oprah can eat a dozen Krispy Kreme donuts. And... the officers will get off, calling it self defense.. IMHO.
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I don't believe that unless you refused to drop the gun and turned it on them.
 
SkyHog said:
That's different....somehow.

Take it a step further, police let their dog come after me in what they think is a valid sting (turns out they're wrong, and I am the wrong person). I shoot the dog.

What next?
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The fact that they turn out to be wrong is irrelevant, in the same way that it would be irrelevant if you were wrong as to the actual threat presented by, say, a police dog.

The ends neither justify nor negate the means.

The relevant question to ask would be: at the time the dog came after you, was there a valid reason to send the dog after you?

Put differently, just because you're innocent doesn't mean that you're free from arrest - and just because you're guilty doesn't make you subject to arrest.
 
SkyHog said:
That's different....somehow.

Take it a step further, police let their dog come after me in what they think is a valid sting (turns out they're wrong, and I am the wrong person). I shoot the dog.

What next?
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You know what's next........ They will storm the place.... the report will read.." Suspect committed suicide by shooting himself in the head... 6 times !!!:yesnod::yesnod:
 
N801BH said:
Lets turn the table on that concept....

You pull up in front of a police station, get out of your car and shoot a police dog that happens to be barking. You then start walking up to the front door of the police station. The police inside witness this whole thing happen... You cannot believe they are going get their guns and head out the back door ?? :nono::nono:

You will be shot dead faster then Oprah can eat a dozen Krispy Kreme donuts. And... the officers will get off, calling it self defense.. IMHO.

Ben
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The critical difference in your hypothetical is that the dog is merely barking.

If it's loose, and runs toward you in an aggressive manner, the situation changes.
 
dmccormack said:
Depends on the Jurisdiction. Some states have enacted "Castle" laws, which remove the requirement to retreat.
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That may be so but there's nothing in my house worth defending with someone's life, mine or anyone else's. It's a moot point anyway since I am unarmed.
 
Everskyward said:
That may be so but there's nothing in my house worth defending with someone's life, mine or anyone else's. It's a moot point anyway since I am unarmed.
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We live in a state without Castle Doctrine in place, but in a jursidiction that tends to side with homeowners in self-defense cases.

I've gamed out various scenarios and there are very few that would warrant deadly force.

That said, if the dogs bark in the middle of the night, I'm up and checking with flashlight and sidearm ready.

We live on 4 acres surrounded by several hundred more of empty land, and have a minimum 30 minute response time by State Police.
 
Everskyward said:
That may be so but there's nothing in my house worth defending with someone's life, mine or anyone else's. It's a moot point anyway since I am unarmed.
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Announcing on the internet you are not armed is scary at best..

Just my opinion.

Ben.
 
dmccormack said:
I'm armed and live in a state without Castle Doctrine in place.

I've gamed out various scenarios and there are few that would warrant deadly force.

That said, if the dogs bark in the middle of the night, I'm up and checking with flashlight and sidearm ready.

We live on 4 acres surrounded by several hundred more of empty land, and have a minimum 30 minute response time by State Police.
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I live alone on 3 acres and the response time would probably be long because this is an understaffed county and I choose not to worry about it.
 
Everskyward said:
I live alone on 3 acres and the response time would probably be long because this is an understaffed county and I choose not to worry about it.
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It all depends on where you live. SW PA is filled with "Patch towns" -- tiny rural ghettoes made up of former Coal Mining housing.

Crime is far from rare hereabouts.

We also have coyotes, feral dogs, various rabid animals from time to time, and unwelcome types casing the joint pretending to want to harvest the bricks from a collapsed barn near our property.

Do I need to shoot people dead on a monthly basis?

Of course not.

But we're not known as easy marks.
 
dmccormack said:
Crime is far from rare hereabouts.
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The crime around here tends to be domestic, which I think is sometimes more violent because of guns in the house. The two I remember clearly are husband shoots wife in front of the kids (where I was part of the jury pool but not selected) and new boyfriend kills ex-husband who has comes to retrieve a TV (he was my finish carpenter).
 
EdFred said:
Well it's a little hard to prove anything when it's the word of a 17 year old kid vs two cops. Who are you gonna believe?
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Sounds like you may have had a bad experiance with the police. I have no idea what your situation was but judging all police based on two you had a problem with is sad.
 
Many states have specific statutes dealing with assault on police dogs, or liability for the use of police dogs, just as many have specific statutes about treatment of privately-owned dogs. Which state are you talking about?
 
SkyHog said:
Yep. So it happens. What happens if a dog is used and self defense, much like the police claim, is used to kill the dog?

You think the law is even in that regard?
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I'm afraid I'm not following what you're saying. Are you asking what happens if the police use a dog during a search warrant and the dog is killed by the "searchee?"

It depends on the circumstances. Is the warrant valid? If so, you're in trouble.

If the warrant is invalid or has been procured by fraud, you *might* be in a different position. Some places give you the right to resist wrongful police action, by force if necessary. Most don't, though - so you're still screwed.
 
I'm pretty good at figuring out which way a gun is pointed. If he's shooting squirrels or grackels, I'll grab mine and go help him. If' he's shooting at my house or at passing cars, other measures may be required.

SkyHog said:
I'm trying to figure out what a bizarre world this is where (neglecting the dog even), seeing a man on your property shooting his gun does not throw up "threat flags" in most reasonable people.

"Aww, what a nice guy, he's shooting his gun on my property. Ain't no threat to me at least!"
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Wow, this thread is just keeps on going, and going, and going. Now, surprise, it has gone from a cop shoots a dog, to Nick gets to shoot a cop. That has got to be better than a wet dream. Nick, you really want to shoot someone, don't you?
 
Maxmosbey said:
Wow, this thread is just keeps on going, and going, and going. Now, surprise, it has gone from a cop shoots a dog, to Nick gets to shoot cop. That has got to be better than a wet dream. Nick, you really want to shoot someone, don't you?
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I'm not quite sure where I said I'd shoot a cop, because I don't want to, nor would I....

Unless I had done nothing wrong and I had a police officer about to kill me. That is the only time I would consider it. Beyond that, I would certainly tell a cop what's up, but that's it.
 
SkyHog said:
Beyond that, I would certainly tell a cop what's up, but that's it.
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Good luck with that.

If you run into an officer and they're targeting you in one way or another - best to STFU, comply, move slowly, and ask for permission before you do much of about anything. Doing so can get you out of some rather precarious situations. Saved me from a bad situation last year.

The only time I've ever questioned an officer is when I have the state statutes printed and on my person. I had to do that several times when I used to have an amateur radio in the car. They'd ask if it could receive police frequencies and I would show them that it in fact could. Then...I'd kindly inform them that I have the paperwork in my glove box and ask for permission to retrieve it.

Going into a bad situation with the attitude that you're going to tell the cop what's up is a good way to get your ass kicked and end the night in jail. Will you win in court? Maybe. But you still spent the night in jail.
 
jesse said:
Good luck with that.

If you run into an officer and they're targeting you in one way or another - best to STFU, comply, move slowly, and ask for permission before you do much of about anything. Doing so can get you out of some rather precarious situations. Saved me from a bad situation last year.

The only time I've ever questioned an officer is when I have the state statutes printed and on my person. I had to do that several times when I used to have an amateur radio in the car. They'd ask if it could receive police frequencies and I would show them that it in fact could. Then...I'd kindly inform them that I have the paperwork in my glove box and ask for permission to retrieve it.

Going into a bad situation with the attitude that you're going to tell the cop what's up is a good way to get your ass kicked and end the night in jail. Will you win in court? Maybe. But you still spent the night in jail.
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LOL!

I meant in a worst case scenario. I don't think I'd meet a cop on the streets, just doing his job, and tell him off. I respect officers that respect the people they're "protecting."
 
SkyHog said:
The scenario I was describing was one in which the person was saying that any person (police officer or not) would be just fine walking onto my property and shooting my dog if it approached him. I was referring to the "non officer" shooting at my house.

Although, honestly, if a police officer walked onto my property and started shooting at my house, I don't know how I'd react. I figure I'm already going to die if I don't do something, right?
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Getting pretty close.
 
Maxmosbey said:
Getting pretty close.
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Lets flip it then.

Police officer starts shooting without provocation at you. Do you take the bullet and hope the officer fries for it, or do you defend yourself?

Again - true self defense situations only.
 
SkyHog said:
Lets flip it then.

Police officer starts shooting without provocation at you. Do you take the bullet and hope the officer fries for it, or do you defend yourself?

Again - true self defense situations only.
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Someone shoots me and I'm going to shoot back. I don't care about the law at that point. I'll let the lawyers sort that out and hope for the best.
 
He'll be wearing body armor. Shoot at the pelvis.

jesse said:
Someone shoots me and I'm going to shoot back. I don't care about the law at that point. I'll let the lawyers sort that out and hope for the best.
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I keep seeing this topic and expect to see a drawing of the dogs shooting at the police.

Man-eating-tiger - a tiger that eats man.
Police-shooting-dogs - dogs that shoot police.
 
SkyHog said:
Lets flip it then.

Police officer starts shooting without provocation at you. Do you take the bullet and hope the officer fries for it, or do you defend yourself?

Again - true self defense situations only.
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I don't think that you would really shoot a cop. Frankly, I don't think you would shoot anyone. I think that you just like talking about it.
 
wabower said:
He'll be wearing body armor. Shoot at the pelvis.
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Thanks for the tip :)

I'd put more effort towards getting the hell out of the situation then I would attempt to engage in a gun fight with an armed police officer with body armor.

The situation Nick described is very unlikely...and not something I'm going to put much thought towards. But If I did get shot with no prevocation and it appeared that the other persons intent in my eyes was to kill me I'd sure try to shoot back although I'd probably lose. Seems like whoever shoots first probably has one hell of an advantage...
 
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Maxmosbey said:
I don't think that you would really shoot a cop. Frankly, I don't think you would shoot anyone. I think that you just like talking about it.
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I would hope that you are correct. I don't like talking about it in a "Hells yeah, lets go shoot us some hoomans!" But rather in a prepare for the worse kind of way.

I never want to shoot anyone. I've been closer than I cared to be at least once in my life, and it was really scary.
 
Steve Foley said:
I keep seeing this topic and expect to see a drawing of the dogs shooting at the police.

Man-eating-tiger - a tiger that eats man.
Police-shooting-dogs - dogs that shoot police.
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Not quite the same, but almost.
 

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Whoever shoots straightest is most likely to win. Quite a few tactical gun courses are available in most locales. Interestingly, the strategies and techniques taught by most private training orgs are quite different from LE and military training. I've done (some of) them all, and noticed that many of the private-sector training methods are being adopted by the government entities.

jesse said:
Thanks for the tip :)

I'd put more effort towards getting the hell out of the situation then I would attempt to engage in a gun fight with an armed police officer with body armor.

The situation Nick described is very unlikely...and not something I'm going to put much thought towards. But If I did get shot with no prevocation and it appeared that the other persons intent in my eyes was to kill me I'd sure try to shoot back although I'd probably lose. Seems like whoever shoots first probably has one hell of an advantage...
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Everskyward said:
Better watch out for those sheepdogs. Someone may be out to shoot them in this thread... :devil:
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I am one of those sheepdogs, and I am learning alot about some members here. Let's just say that I am less than impressed.
 
jesse said:
Someone shoots me and I'm going to shoot back. I don't care about the law at that point. I'll let the lawyers sort that out and hope for the best.
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Yep...

That said, I don't think most of us (gun owners or not) truly believe it's very likely that we'll ever need to do that. If you figure that 1 million crimes are prevented per year by guns (rough NRA statistic from a few years back) and there are 300 million people in this country, then theoretically you only have roughly a 25-30% chance of ever being one of those people.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Yep...

If you figure that 1 million crimes are prevented per year by guns (rough NRA statistic from a few years back)
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I'd love to see their source for that.

I love my dogs. I really do. But I'm not risking my life for them, nor am I risking it for uninsured property. I would hate it if the cops busted into my house and shot my dogs. But I would file an insurance claim (replacement value with documentation) and move on. Any other course is illogical. I know, my dogs mean more than that. But insubstantial things can't be replaced.

If the mean armed man comes up my front steps I will be going down the back steps. He or she would have to be one hell of a driver to catch me; I always keep a fast car or bike. Let him burn down my house and steal my stuff, I own nothing that can't be replaced save myself and my spouse. If that makes me some sort of sheep, fine. I'd rather be a live sheep than a dead hero.
 
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