Police shooting dogs

I'd love to see their source for that.

Michael, I said "if". Definitely wasn't saying it was true, and if you figure that their statistic is being generous (which I do), then that shows that it's even less likely (which was my ponit).
 
Sorry to hijack. I'm trained to sniff out inconsistencies. It can be a pain in the six, though, at least according to Mrs. S.
 
I'd love to see their source for that.

....

It comes from a wholly discredited law review article published in (if I remember correctly) the Northwestern Law Review in the mid-'90's. I've forgotten the authors' names.

It's pretty amusing the read the initial article, the near-universal criticisms (the only ones who didn't criticize it was the gun lobby), and the somewhat amusing rebuttal by the original authors that actually did more to discredit their work than any of the criticisms did.
 
It comes from a wholly discredited law review article published in (if I remember correctly) the Northwestern Law Review in the mid-'90's. I've forgotten the authors' names.

It's pretty amusing the read the initial article, the near-universal criticisms (the only ones who didn't criticize it was the gun lobby), and the somewhat amusing rebuttal by the original authors that actually did more to discredit their work than any of the criticisms did.


The article may have been "discredited," but the concept -- gun ownership deters crime -- doesn't need a law review article for "proof."

The folks that owned our house before us had locks on everything and warned us about frequent thefts (after we bought).

I set up a handgun range in the front yard, and shoot clays in the back yard.

Funny -- not a single theft in 8 years. :D
 

That's a very interesting and moving article. I'm not sure I agree with the author's strict dichotomy between sheep and sheepdogs: I suspect there are a lot of us who choose not to be warriors, but who will rise to the occasion when needed.

I'm also not so sure that dislike for police officers stems solely from their "looking like the wolf," as the author writes:
"The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours."
Most people don't dislike police officers by nature. Little kids tend to admire cops and to trust them implicitly. Loving the protector is instinctive, and for the protector to lose the love of those protected means that something changed somewhere along the line, and it's not about something trivial like parking tickets.

Certainly some part of it comes from the cop as a representation of limitations on our personal liberty. But as the article points out, most Americans aren't inclined to break the law in such ways as to get the police involved in their lives, anyway. Most people don't murder, rape, steal, and so forth, and the occasional parking ticket isn't enough to cause a shift from the child's wide-eyed worship to the outright disdain many grown-up people have for police officers.

Rather, I think that the dislike begins with the bad acts of the small minority of officers who violate the author's stated rules for sheepdogs and their masters -- "Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed" -- but is energized by the well-deserved reputation of some police departments to cover up or justify police misconduct.

In other words, if more police departments actually took acts of police misconduct seriously, I think the public opinion of police in general would be better. The failure of many departments to police the police is what causes anger at a particular officer for his or her misdeeds, to mushroom into disdain for police in general.

Another problem is that cops are notoriously clannish. Most of them rarely talk to the rest of us except when they have to. How often do you see one cop in a diner having breakfast in the morning before work, just shooting the breeze with the rest of us? You may see two or more, talking only to each other, but rarely do police officers want to associate with civilians except in the line of duty.

That's a bad thing for their public image because by nature, people tend to dislike and be suspicious of gangs. It doesn't matter very much whether they're wearing gang colors or police uniforms. They're viewed with suspicion. I think that's just human nature.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I admire and respect police, and my experiences with them have been positive. That doesn't mean I think they're perfect, nor that we necessarily need as many police officers as we have, nor that the laws they are sworn to enforce necessarily make any sense. But the police don't write the laws.

I also believe that bad acts by the police are the exception, rather than the rule; and I understand the dismay cops must feel when a community judges all of them by the over-publicized bad acts of a few. But realistically speaking, when departments cover up, minimize, or attempt to justify these bad acts; and when police themselves live in a gang subculture that avoids non-essential contact with civilians, is the public response all that surprising?

-Rich
 
In the late 70s, I was a young rookie cop, trying to figure out how I was going to handle things. I had a training officer who didn't mind pulling his gun out if things looked a little dicey. I kind of got into that habit as well. After I had been around a couple of years, I got assigned to a foot beat with a partner. Our job was to walk bars. Twenty-seven of them, give or take. My partner had been walking bars for a long time, and the first time I pulled my pistol, he said, "put that thing back in your holster, you're gonna need both hands to fight." After that, I became what was later known as a "hands on" kind of guy. They used to call it the "laying on of hands." Twenty-nine years of police work, fourteen of those in the bars, and I can remember every time I pulled a gun. I can not even imagine how many times I had to physically put someone on the ground, and get a set of cuffs on them, all the time they were struggling to get away from me. Let's just set the armed home invasion aside. The one where out of the blue a gang of armed evil doers randomly pick my house and decide to break in and kill me. I just don't see that happening to me. If anyone breaks into my house, we're gonna have a laying on of hands. Pure and simple. I spend more time in the gym, than I spend on the shooting range, because I figure that if someone, for some reason and I'm not sure of what that would be, wants a piece of me, that is what it is going to end up being. That said, I am a pretty easy going guy, and I can't imagine anyone getting hostile with me, except maybe someone might take issue with my driving.:D The thing is, I don't walk around all day every day, wondering how I'm going to protect myself.
 
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Another problem is that cops are notoriously clannish. Most of them rarely talk to the rest of us except when they have to. How often do you see one cop in a diner having breakfast in the morning before work, just shooting the breeze with the rest of us? You may see two or more, talking only to each other, but rarely do police officers want to associate with civilians except in the line of duty.

That's a bad thing for their public image because by nature, people tend to dislike and be suspicious of gangs. It doesn't matter very much whether they're wearing gang colors or police uniforms. They're viewed with suspicion. I think that's just human nature.

Rich -- one of the best things that ever happened to the NYPD was the effort to get them out of squad cars and out on the streets, walking and mingling.
 
Rich -- one of the best things that ever happened to the NYPD was the effort to get them out of squad cars and out on the streets, walking and mingling.

I agree. I also think the NYPD is the best police department anywhere.

-Rich
 
In the late 70s, I was a young rookie cop, trying to figure out how I was going to handle things. I had a training officer who didn't mind pulling his gun out if things looked a little dicey. I kind of got into that habit as well. After I had been around a couple of years, I got assigned to a foot beat with a partner. Our job was to walk bars. Twenty-seven of them, give or take. My partner had been walking bars for a long time, and the first time I pulled my pistol, he said, "put that thing back in your holster, you're gonna need both hands to fight." After that, I became what was later known as a "hands on" kind of guy. They used to call it the "laying on of hands." Twenty-nine years of police work, fourteen of those in the bars, and I can remember every time I pulled a gun. I can not even imagine how many times I had to physically put someone on the ground, and get a set of cuffs on them, all the time they were struggling to get away from me. Let's just set the armed home invasion aside. The one where out of the blue a gang of armed evil doers randomly pick my house and decide to break in and kill me. I just don't see that happening to me. If anyone breaks into my house, we're gonna have a laying on of hands. Pure and simple. I spend more time in the gym, than I spend on the shooting range, because I figure that if someone, for some reason and I'm not sure of what that would be, wants a piece of me, that is what it is going to end up being. That said, I am a pretty easy going guy, and I can't imagine anyone getting hostile with me, except maybe someone might take issue with my driving.:D The thing is, I don't walk around all day every day, wondering how I'm going to protect myself.
The nice thing about dealing with a bar fight is that quite often those involved are VERY drunk which gives you a pretty huge advantage if you're sober.

There is a big difference between sorting out a drunken bar fight versus someone busting into your home when you least expect it. The drunken bar fight is pretty obvious what you're getting into from the start.

When someone breaks in your home you don't know their physical size, their intent, or whether or not they are armed. I'm not going to play a guessing game and hope they're: a) smaller then me (not many are), b) not armed, c) with good intent.

I know the state laws fairly well, and I am fairly confident with a firearm, they chose to enter and I'm going to put the odds in my favor. I have no desire to shoot a person but if they leave me no choice, so be it.

I don't lose sleep over the concern of someone breaking into my home. It's very unlikely. I wish I could say the same about my mail box though...
 
I know the state laws fairly well, and I am fairly confident with a firearm, they chose to enter and I'm going to put the odds in my favor. I have no desire to shoot a person but if they leave me no choice, so be it.

I don't lose sleep over the concern of someone breaking into my home. It's very unlikely. I wish I could say the same about my mail box though...

What is the chance of someone picking you out at random and breaking into your house with the intention of doing harm to you? I would say very slim. I could happen, but there are so many things that "could happen." I'm with you, if my life was in danger, I would defend myself, but for the run of the mill break in, if you just yell that you are calling the cops, they are going to beat feet as fast as they can. Why would you even want to shoot them? People who break into houses to steal something are generally not violent, unless you corner them. As far as a drunk kid wandering in, I lock my doors at night, so they will probably go next door. If they do break a window or something, I'll call the cops, and hang onto them until the cops get there. I'm not going to shoot them for being so drunk that they think their room mates locked them out of their own house.
 
Most people don't dislike police officers by nature. Little kids tend to admire cops and to trust them implicitly.
Dunno about little kids, but I had a very strong suspicion of the police when I was an older kid which didn't go away until I was [cough] in my 30s. But then I grew up in the era when cops were "pigs" and I was pretty anti-establishment, anti-authority and cops represented the "man".
 
...I'm not going to shoot them for being so drunk that they think their room mates locked them out of their own house.

Happened down in Colo. Springs recently. Guy had just moved into a subdivision where all the houses looked the same; somebody dropped him off on the wrong street. Guy was drunk, went to the house he thought was his and thought his roommate was messing with him, so he broke the window out to unlock the door (with typical drunk behavior). Person inside killed him.

Can you blame the person inside? Not at all, not in the least. But what a tragedy for everyone involved. I sure wouldn't want the burden that the guy in the house will have for the rest of his life.
 
What is the chance of someone picking you out at random and breaking into your house with the intention of doing harm to you? I would say very slim. I could happen, but there are so many things that "could happen." I'm with you, if my life was in danger, I would defend myself, but for the run of the mill break in, if you just yell that you are calling the cops, they are going to beat feet as fast as they can. Why would you even want to shoot them? People who break into houses to steal something are generally not violent, unless you corner them. As far as a drunk kid wandering in, I lock my doors at night, so they will probably go next door. If they do break a window or something, I'll call the cops, and hang onto them until the cops get there. I'm not going to shoot them for being so drunk that they think their room mates locked them out of their own house.

This is very very situationally dependent.

We live on 4 acres set up and off the road. There are hundreds of acres of wood and open land around us.

If someone knocks on the door in the middle of the night, most likley it's someone stranded or lost or demented. I would answer slowly, and guarded, but shooting would be a last resort.

If I wake up suspecting an intruder, the dogs will be barking. I will go downstairs with large 4 D cell flashlight and handgun at the ready, my wife will have the shotgun and remain upstairs while calling 911.

If someone is bold or stupid enough to break in and stay in after midnight, with dogs barking -- they have stepped into the danger zone, and no jury in our area will convict a homeowner unless the perp is a lost 10 year old.
 
It comes from a wholly discredited law review article published in (if I remember correctly) the Northwestern Law Review in the mid-'90's. I've forgotten the authors' names.

It's pretty amusing the read the initial article, the near-universal criticisms (the only ones who didn't criticize it was the gun lobby), and the somewhat amusing rebuttal by the original authors that actually did more to discredit their work than any of the criticisms did.

Which, once again, proves the point I was trying to make even further. :)

I agree. I also think the NYPD is the best police department anywhere.

I don't know how you figure - they've got the worst manners, worst response time, and worst service of any department I've dealt with worldwide.
 
Dunno about little kids, but I had a very strong suspicion of the police when I was an older kid which didn't go away until I was [cough] in my 30s. But then I grew up in the era when cops were "pigs" and I was pretty anti-establishment, anti-authority and cops represented the "man".

Where and when I was raised cops were to be feared, not respected, and I lived in a good part of Manhattan growing up in the 90s. They were the people who harassed you for going to school, were consistently rude, and you better not cross them or they'll let you have it and get away with it.

Not a matter of being anti-establishment or anti-authority (I'm not either), it's just what we observed in the environment I grew up in. Even the times the cops came by and were friendly (rare), it was too late and they said that they couldn't do anything about the neighbor who smashed your car with a baseball bat with witnesses.
 
Which, once again, proves the point I was trying to make even further. :)



I don't know how you figure - they've got the worst manners, worst response time, and worst service of any department I've dealt with worldwide.

I was in Central Park at 2am one night, lost. I saw one of those stupid looking half-cars that the police drive parked there, and walked up to ask the police officer for advice on how to get out of there.

He refused to talk to me. Kept his window rolled up. I knocked on it, he looked at me and then looked back down at his newspaper.

Best department ever.
 
I was in Central Park at 2am one night, lost. I saw one of those stupid looking half-cars that the police drive parked there, and walked up to ask the police officer for advice on how to get out of there.

He refused to talk to me. Kept his window rolled up. I knocked on it, he looked at me and then looked back down at his newspaper.

Best department ever.

I once saw a low-wing pilot terribly bounce a landing and bend his nosegear.

Low wing pilots -- worst pilots ever.
 
That's a very interesting and moving article. I'm not sure I agree with the author's strict dichotomy between sheep and sheepdogs: I suspect there are a lot of us who choose not to be warriors, but who will rise to the occasion when needed.

I'm also not so sure that dislike for police officers stems solely from their "looking like the wolf," as the author writes:
"The sheep generally do not like the sheepdog. He looks a lot like the wolf. He has fangs and the capacity for violence. The difference, though, is that the sheepdog must not, can not and will not ever harm the sheep. Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed. The world cannot work any other way, at least not in a representative democracy or a republic such as ours."
Most people don't dislike police officers by nature. Little kids tend to admire cops and to trust them implicitly. Loving the protector is instinctive, and for the protector to lose the love of those protected means that something changed somewhere along the line, and it's not about something trivial like parking tickets.

Certainly some part of it comes from the cop as a representation of limitations on our personal liberty. But as the article points out, most Americans aren't inclined to break the law in such ways as to get the police involved in their lives, anyway. Most people don't murder, rape, steal, and so forth, and the occasional parking ticket isn't enough to cause a shift from the child's wide-eyed worship to the outright disdain many grown-up people have for police officers.

Rather, I think that the dislike begins with the bad acts of the small minority of officers who violate the author's stated rules for sheepdogs and their masters -- "Any sheep dog who intentionally harms the lowliest little lamb will be punished and removed" -- but is energized by the well-deserved reputation of some police departments to cover up or justify police misconduct.

In other words, if more police departments actually took acts of police misconduct seriously, I think the public opinion of police in general would be better. The failure of many departments to police the police is what causes anger at a particular officer for his or her misdeeds, to mushroom into disdain for police in general.

Another problem is that cops are notoriously clannish. Most of them rarely talk to the rest of us except when they have to. How often do you see one cop in a diner having breakfast in the morning before work, just shooting the breeze with the rest of us? You may see two or more, talking only to each other, but rarely do police officers want to associate with civilians except in the line of duty.

That's a bad thing for their public image because by nature, people tend to dislike and be suspicious of gangs. It doesn't matter very much whether they're wearing gang colors or police uniforms. They're viewed with suspicion. I think that's just human nature.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I admire and respect police, and my experiences with them have been positive. That doesn't mean I think they're perfect, nor that we necessarily need as many police officers as we have, nor that the laws they are sworn to enforce necessarily make any sense. But the police don't write the laws.

I also believe that bad acts by the police are the exception, rather than the rule; and I understand the dismay cops must feel when a community judges all of them by the over-publicized bad acts of a few. But realistically speaking, when departments cover up, minimize, or attempt to justify these bad acts; and when police themselves live in a gang subculture that avoids non-essential contact with civilians, is the public response all that surprising?

-Rich

Rich that has to be one of the best responses I have read. Also I know it is different in the cities,( I am not sure if you are in NYC or NY state), where I am from all of us are from the area, and when community policing became popular we didnt know what they were talking about because that is they way we have always do it, know your citizens as people first. I do agree that not every officer out there is a boyscout I believe I said that in one of my fist posts and you are correct that unfortunately for us and the public there are departments out there that will cover up for the officers when what they should do is make an example out of them and prosecute them.
 
I once saw a low-wing pilot terribly bounce a landing and bend his nosegear.

Low wing pilots -- worst pilots ever.

Dan, Nick's one example isn't enough to set a precedent, but my 18 years of examples are more than sufficient.
 
As I have said judging all by the deeds of a few is not the way to form an opinion of any group. Judge each individual as just that an individual, if they are a dirtbag that happens to be in uniform they are still a dirtbag.
 
In my experience with police on duty it's been 80% dbag 20% nice guys. I also used to instruct police officers in hand to hand combat situations, and the % seemed to be about the same. They usually got less douchey when they end up face down on the ground, and realized that their government training sucked.
 
My grandfather was NYPD, then he ran a cop bar for years in Brooklyn (Flatbush).

My dad tended cop bars for years.

My take? NYPD reflects NY, period.

I wouldn't disagree with that, and note where I currently live. I don't think much of the rest of NY, either.

Doesn't make the NYPD any better in my mind.
 
Rich that has to be one of the best responses I have read. Also I know it is different in the cities,( I am not sure if you are in NYC or NY state), where I am from all of us are from the area, and when community policing became popular we didnt know what they were talking about because that is they way we have always do it, know your citizens as people first. I do agree that not every officer out there is a boyscout I believe I said that in one of my fist posts and you are correct that unfortunately for us and the public there are departments out there that will cover up for the officers when what they should do is make an example out of them and prosecute them.

Thanks. Sometimes I surprise myself.

I live in New York City, in one of the forgotten "outer boroughs."

-Rich
 
What were you doing 80% of the time? :nono: :rofl:

Well one time I was in a convenience store and approached a couple of officers with a question, and they seemed a bit put out that I would dare bother them with a question. The on duty ones that weren't douchey I acted the same way as I did with the one that threatened me with jail.
 
Dan, Nick's one example isn't enough to set a precedent, but my 18 years of examples are more than sufficient.

Ted, things are a lot different these days. The past few commissioners put a lot of work into the department. The cops in my neighborhood are gems.

-Rich
 
Here's one example of what I mean when I say that cops reaching out to the community can improve their images by doing so.

When I was taking my goddaughter to the Empire State Building one day last winter, she mentioned that she thought a particular cop was "cute." So I asked him if he'd be willing to let me photograph them together. (NYPD officers are encouraged, but not required, to allow themselves to be photographed with tourists.)

He agreed, and I snapped the attached picture of the two of them.

Later on, when it came time for souvenirs, my goddaughter only wanted one thing. I'll give you a clue what it was: She's wearing it in the second picture.

-Rich
 

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Ted, things are a lot different these days. The past few commissioners put a lot of work into the department. The cops in my neighborhood are gems.

I left NYC primarily in 2002, for college and permanently in 2006, and go back every month or two to visit my mom. While I will admit that most of my experience was in the 1995-2002 range, I haven't noticed any improvements since.
 
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