Police shooting dogs

SkyHog

SkyHog

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Everything Offends Me
I was doing research today, and I was surprised to find how many times police officers shoot dogs without cause. In every case here, the officers have been cleared of any wrongdoing.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/09/police.kill.dog/

http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/family-questions-police-shooting-101050.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1091106/posts

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/11/AR2006091101440.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/04/AR2008090402746.html

That was a simple 3 minute search. There are many, many other examples.

Mike Vick was more of a man than these officers were. At least he didn't use a gun.

edit: I edited my post because it sounded too "internet tough guy"ish.

A better solution is instead, I would think, to arrest the police officer. It ain't gonna be pretty, but it will get attention, and probably get these scum treated as the dirtbags they are.

Can you arrest a police officer?
 
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Wish you wouldn't have posted that; it was a pretty good day.
What cr*p.

An honest mistake is one thing; proceeding without a proper warent and the attitude is completely unacceptable.

Best,

Dave
 
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/WWhickok.htm

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In April 1871, Hickok was employed as marshal of [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Abilene[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]. He was paid $150 a month plus a percentage of the fines. Hickok also received 50 cents for every unlicensed dog he shot. Hickok did not take his duties seriously and spent most of his time playing poker.[/FONT]
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How more American can you get, than Wild Bill Hickok? Heck, he even shot and killed his own deputy.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In October 1871 he shot and killed two men, Phil Coe and a fellow officer, Mike Williams. This incident upset the city council and two months later Hickok lost his job.[/FONT]
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Everskyward said:
http://www.aolnews.com/crime/articl...david-dolan-accused-of-driving-drunk/19411071
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No no, I mean a citizens arrest.

No police officer, in my mind at least, would shoot a dog without provocation, so in my mind, that person is not a police officer, and is impersonating one.

So I arrest him and call 911, reporting an impersonator under arrest in my yard. I release him to the authorities when they arrive.

Have I broken the law by placing an officer under arrest, not knowing he was really an officer?

Moreover - and this is sketchy, but if a man will come onto my property and shoot my dog without provocation, I believe, truly, that I am probably next. Does that qualify as self defense at that point?
 
Reminds me of those idiots that shot Marcus Luttrell's dog. Still ****es me off everytime I think about it.
 
alaskaflyer said:
Zzzzzzzzzzz
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I suppose "I feel like killing that there dog" is cause, I suppose I should have used "just" cause, but I know that in these instances, the cops aren't really just anyways.
 
jesse said:
Reminds me of those idiots that shot Marcus Luttrell's dog. Still ****es me off everytime I think about it.
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The good thing about that story is that police actually helped in that instance. They stopped the thugs and kept Luttrell from making a huge mistake (in some people's eyes).
 
Cops are never in the wrong Nick. Just ask any of them. The only justification they need is that they are a police officer. Do not question them, ever. Just being sworn in grants them sainthood.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Wish you wouldn't have posted that; it was a pretty good day.
What cr*p.

An honest mistake is one thing; proceeding without a proper warent and the attitude is completely unacceptable.

Best,

Dave
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I couldn't get the second link to work. Are you talking about that case?
 
alaskaflyer said:
I couldn't get the second link to work. Are you talking about that case?
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It would be all of them. Including the first where cops refused to close the door of a car that they had already been removed from to avoid letting the dog out into traffic. Then shooting the dog when it walked away with a wagging tail. Real scary. That cop might have gotten licked!
 
I know of one dog that a policeman WANTED to shoot, that I agreed with him and wished it had been done as well. Apparently where I live they are allowed to shoot IF the dog has a prior history and makes a threatening move. FYI, the Rottweiler in question has just escaped it's owners fence (a perennial problem that the owner did nothing about) and found it's way to chase me as I was jogging. Got close enough to me to rip my running shorts before I started sprinting... and the dog wasn't just going for my shorts. Don't always assume that the dog is innocent, despite what their owners have to say about their "precious little dog" that "never hurt nobody"... There can be two sides to a story. Not that the police are always right, either.

Ryan
 
RyanShort1 said:
I know of one dog that a policeman WANTED to shoot, that I agreed with him and wished it had been done as well. Apparently where I live they are allowed to shoot IF the dog has a prior history and makes a threatening move. FYI, the Rottweiler in question has just escaped it's owners fence (a perennial problem that the owner did nothing about) and found it's way to chase me as I was jogging. Got close enough to me to rip my running shorts before I started sprinting... and the dog wasn't just going for my shorts. Don't always assume that the dog is innocent, despite what their owners have to say about their "precious little dog" that "never hurt nobody"... There can be two sides to a story. Not that the police are always right, either.

Ryan
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Video evidence to the contrary is usually pretty damning.... Unless you're a cop and your crimes are investigated by fellow officers
 
SkyHog said:
No no, I mean a citizens arrest.

No police officer, in my mind at least, would shoot a dog without provocation, so in my mind, that person is not a police officer, and is impersonating one.

So I arrest him and call 911, reporting an impersonator under arrest in my yard. I release him to the authorities when they arrive.

Have I broken the law by placing an officer under arrest, not knowing he was really an officer?

Moreover - and this is sketchy, but if a man will come onto my property and shoot my dog without provocation, I believe, truly, that I am probably next. Does that qualify as self defense at that point?
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Let us know how arresting an officer works out for you, once you get out of jail and finish the court proceedings..
 
Many dogs don't like people in uniform, whether it's the mailman, UPS guy or cop. If the problem can be handled by animal control, most cops will call them. If not, they can't let a dog dictate the terms of their work. Dogs that are controlled by their owners aren't normally hurt by cops.

SkyHog said:
Video evidence to the contrary is usually pretty damning.... Unless you're a cop and your crimes are investigated by fellow officers
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SkyHog said:
It would be all of them. Including the first where cops refused to close the door of a car that they had already been removed from to avoid letting the dog out into traffic. Then shooting the dog when it walked away with a wagging tail. Real scary. That cop might have gotten licked!
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Was I asking you?

By the way what would you arrest the officers for?
 
alaskaflyer said:
Was I asking you?

By the way what would you arrest the officers for?
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Are you feeling wronged somehow because it's been documented and published that some folks who wear a badge did something uncalled for and they were actions that cannot be undone? Your reaction to Nick's posts indicates you think little of him or the subject matter of his posts in this thread.

OBTW, Nick noted what he intended to arrest them for in his post. Go back and read it again. I'm sorry to see that you have so much trouble with this topic. Perhaps discussing it with a priest or someone else with a little humanity would help you understand the valid points of view offered here.
 
alaskaflyer said:
Was I asking you?

By the way what would you arrest the officers for?
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Impersonating an officer, and thus trespassing, destruction to property and depending on the situation plays out, assault on me.

Its a pretty good question, and one that I explained elsewhere in the thread. If I have no reason to believe that an officer would kill a dog for fun (despite evidence to the contrary), if an officer did come and kill my dog without provocation (as in the stories/videos I posted), I would have no reason to believe that he is, in fact, a police officer and not someone who is impersonating one.

And most likely I'm his next target.

So - to what end? What happens if one arrests a police officer, thinking he's not an officer, calls 911, and releases him to another officer, who can then verify his identity?
 
SkyHog said:
No no, I mean a citizens arrest.

No police officer, in my mind at least, would shoot a dog without provocation, so in my mind, that person is not a police officer, and is impersonating one.

So I arrest him and call 911, reporting an impersonator under arrest in my yard. I release him to the authorities when they arrive.

Have I broken the law by placing an officer under arrest, not knowing he was really an officer?

Moreover - and this is sketchy, but if a man will come onto my property and shoot my dog without provocation, I believe, truly, that I am probably next. Does that qualify as self defense at that point?
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Speaking in manner of strict legal technicalities, a police officer has no greater authority to arrest than a citizen does. Both require probable cause - there is no variation from that standard to make an arrest.

The police officer has the advantage, however, in that: 1) he wears a uniform; 2) he can rely on the "fellow officer rule;" 3) a prosecutor will generally blindly support a police officer (not all, hence the "generally"); and 4) the police officer receives governmental immunity from liability.
 
SkyHog said:
Impersonating an officer, and thus trespassing, destruction to property and depending on the situation plays out, assault on me.

....
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You'll have to do a little bit better than that. He ain't impersonating an officer - he is one, regardless of whether he's acting outside the scope of his authority.

Trespassing - you'll have to see if that's an arrestable offense in N.M. Many jurisdictions are now going to "citation-only" offenses. In other words, arrest isn't allowed for certain offenses under state law, unless there are aggravating circumstances (e.g., you won't sign the citation or something like that). You'll also need to know the exact factual elements required for trespassing.

Destruction of property - same problem as with trespassing. In addition, you get into issues of monetary value. I hate to say it, but in the eyes of the law, a dog is something that a monetary value would be placed on for purposes of things like theft or destruction of property (to my knowledge, there are no places making theft of a pet a crime of itself). So, as a very general rule, if the dog's monetary value is <$500 (or some other arbitrary number like $1,000), you're looking at one crime; if it's >$500, you're looking at another crime. Again, you'll need to know the exact elements involved.

You'll need to be familiar with the scope of authority and immunity granted a police officer in New Mexico. You'll need to understand what "probable cause" is. You'll need to know what you need to tell the guy if you "arrest" him.

And then, you'll need to be able to physically handle the situation.

You've got to be able to identify the crime you'll have made a citizen's arrest for. Can you do that?

Do you know whether police get immunity from crimes like trespassing?

So, what you're proposing is not impossible, in the same way that using force to resist an unlawful arrest is not impossible in certain states (Oklahoma, I believe, is one). But, like the use of force to resist an unlawful arrest, if you're wrong to even one iota of a degree - you're looking at major, Major, MAJOR offenses.

Here's the way I look at it: although it sucks to swallow your pride, especially when you're in the right, effing with a police officer doesn't do you any good and potentially puts you in danger of several things, potentially your life.

Sorting out these things are what courts are for - you're better off doing it that way, even though every single one of us would like nothing better than to tell a cop that's in the wrong to "---k off."

Seriously - I'm in the law for a living, and things like criminal law and criminal procedure are things I deal with on a daily basis. Without meaning to sound arrogant, I'm not confident in my ability to know exactly what the law says - especially in the heat of the moment - and while I'm not saying it's impossible at all, I wouldn't have faith in many people to know what to do in the heat of the moment (same applies to police officers - but they have the advantages I listed previously).

So, keep that in mind. As they say in traffic stops, "take it up with the judge, sir."
 
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Another thing, what if the cop decides he doesn't want to be arrested by you. What are you going to do then? Are you going to physically detain him? I'm just wondering if you are up to that?
 
Maxmosbey said:
Another thing, what if the cop decides he doesn't want to be arrested by you. What are you going to do then? Are you going to physically detain him? I'm just wondering if you are up to that?
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Right - and if you're wrong in even the slightest degree, you've just committed a big-time felony.

Which is why I say: "sort it out in court." If the police officer was in the wrong, sue him under 42 USC 1983. Sue the officer, the PD, the city, the county, whoever. Take them to the cleaners. Get a judgment. Take the guy's house. Take his car. Take his guns. Sleep with his wife. Whatever. Make sure he doesn't ever work as a police officer again, or in any other job aside from bagging groceries.

But don't put your life, freedom, property, or reputation on the line.
 
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All complicated answers to a simple question about the requisite criminal mindset required for most offenses I can think of connected to shooting a dog.
 
SkyHog said:
I was doing research today, and I was surprised to find how many times police officers shoot dogs without cause. In every case here, the officers have been cleared of any wrongdoing.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/09/police.kill.dog/

http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/family-questions-police-shooting-101050.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1091106/posts

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/11/AR2006091101440.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/04/AR2008090402746.html

That was a simple 3 minute search. There are many, many other examples.

Mike Vick was more of a man than these officers were. At least he didn't use a gun.

edit: I edited my post because it sounded too "internet tough guy"ish.

A better solution is instead, I would think, to arrest the police officer. It ain't gonna be pretty, but it will get attention, and probably get these scum treated as the dirtbags they are.

Can you arrest a police officer?
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While I love my dog and would not want anything to happen to him from what I can read of the reports you have cited there is not enough there to back up your assertion that the police had no cause. In several of the cases the owners were not even home to verify what actually happened. In others the investigation was not completed. As for your comments about the police impersonating a police officer because they did not act the way you wanted them to, I fear you would be in a great deal of trouble as you would likely fail the resonable test of doubting the officer was who he said he was simply becuase he shot a dog to defend himself. That action is not illegal in and of itself and it's so open to interpretation as to wether it's justified that your snap decision to say the cop was not justified, particularly if your not there to see what happened is not going to get very far when your dealing with the police.

That being said, it's truly sad situation for everyone involved when loved pet dies under any circumstance.
 
While I agree with the bulk of your post Nick, I am having a hard time with you 'arresting' the LEO. The practicality of the matter. I picture you in the backyard, happening upon the scene, the (uniformed, most likely) cop having just shot your dog and you wanting to take the cop in. Most likely he will a) have a gun, b) in his hand, b) with his finger on the trigger if it just happened. And your goal is to physically restrain this emotionally pumped-up guy. I foresee only bad things for an apprehender in such a situation. At best you would end up in jail, at worst hospital or even the basement of the hospital.

Interestingly, a few weeks ago the sheriff here was bitten by the suspect's dog when he was taking the guy in. Sheriff is a reasonable sort (unlike past times) and recognized territoriality, and the dog protecting his meal ticket...so no shooting.
PS the dog "Did Not Bite the Deputeee"!
 
I deleted my post that was not in full support of every police officer. I'm sorry if I offended some of you. It was late at night, I was tired. As far as one to one goes, I'm probably getting too old for that, I might pull something.

(I have saved it though)

John
 
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alaskaflyer said:
All complicated answers to a simple question about the requisite criminal mindset required for most offenses I can think of connected to shooting a dog.
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Is that an answer or another question?
 
John Baker said:
Police are pretty much the same as gang members when it comes to individual courage, their strength is in numbers, not individually. They are fearful people who will easily overreact in most any situation.
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That is one HELL of a blanket statement. I've known police officers that are extremely courageous. There are only a few I've came across that weren't. Most of them really do mean well. Treat all of them with respect from the get-go and it saves you a LOT of trouble.

I used to do a LOT of ridealongs growing up as a kid (small town, step dad was a local officer with a lot of weight) and only once did I see a new cop not live up to his responsibility in fear.
 
It's not a blanket statement it's pure bull****. I ran a 150-gun PD for 9 years. All bigmouth has to do is tell me which one he wants one-on-one with no gun and the guy will be there immediately. Hell, so will I.

jesse said:
That is one HELL of a blanket statement. I've known police officers that are extremely courageous. There are only a few I've came across that weren't. Most of them really do mean well. Treat all of them with respect from the get-go and it saves you a LOT of trouble.

I used to do a LOT of ridealongs growing up as a kid (small town, step dad was a local officer with a lot of weight) and only once did I see a new cop not live up to his responsibility in fear.
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wabower said:
It's not a blanket statement it's pure bull****. I ran a 150-gun PD for 9 years. All bigmouth has to do is tell me which one he wants one-on-one with no guy and the guy will be there immediately. Hell, so will I.
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I wonder if gang members go just as ballistic when they feel they are not getting the respect they should, and are entitled to, as members of their particular gang?

John
 
Is this the Spin Zone?

I've never seen John express admiration for any public servant in any avocation. C'est la vie.
 
alaskaflyer said:
Is this the Spin Zone?

I've never seen John express admiration for any public servant in any avocation. C'est la vie.
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I have nothing against "public servants", what I am against is the sheer numbers of them. Why do we need so many people to govern us?

Why are police officers convinced they are our masters, rather than public servants?

My real thought is, we need people to manage the affairs of our country, that is a given. What I question is, why does a free people need so much governing?

John
 
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