US Airways A320 Crash Into Hudson River

You had a crew that can execute their basic training and were over a very suitable landing site. The odds were high in their favor, no miracle.
You don't think that it was a miracle that they were over a very suitable landing site? And being able to immediately and decisively implement the basic training is, while perhaps not miraculous, certainly praiseworthy.
 
You don't think that it was a miracle that they were over a very suitable landing site? And being able to immediately and decisively implement the basic training is, while perhaps not miraculous, certainly praiseworthy.
Was it miraculous that birds got into both engines and shut them down?

I think there is no miracle here, instead I want to give full credit to a team of pilots that appear to have made the correct decisions to save their pax and crew. Calling it miraculous cheapens the actions of the two pilots IMHO.
 
Was it miraculous that birds got into both engines and shut them down?

I think there is no miracle here, instead I want to give full credit to a team of pilots that appear to have made the correct decisions to save their pax and crew. Calling it miraculous cheapens the actions of the two pilots IMHO.
Sounds like you have a bone to pick with Kitty/Kenny!:D But I agree with you Scott.

I certainly think it's praiseworthy, and I actually think they did better than the average crew may have done. Certainly, I don't see how the outcome could have been any better. I don't know about calling it heroic, since they weren't taking any steps that were contrary to those giving them the best chance of survival, though I certainly don't think I'd argue against it. Congressional Medal of Freedom, however, as someone on another board proposed, is not appropriate, IMHO.
 
Sounds like you have a bone to pick with Kitty/Kenny!:D But I agree with you Scott.

I certainly think it's praiseworthy, and I actually think they did better than the average crew may have done. Certainly, I don't see how the outcome could have been any better. I don't know about calling it heroic, since they weren't taking any steps that were contrary to those giving them the best chance of survival, though I certainly don't think I'd argue against it. Congressional Medal of Freedom, however, as someone on another board proposed, is not appropriate, IMHO.
Just a FYI I do not think there is a Congressional Medal of Freedom. There is the Congressional Medal of Honor which goes to military personal. But the only Medal of Freedom I am aware of is the Presidential Medal of Freedom that was started in 1963 by President Kennedy.

I may be mistaken. In either case I agree the award of such a medal is not warranted in this case. But that is not to say that these guy do not deserve a serious amounts of thanks and recognition. What would be nice is for US Airways to give them a huge bonus of gratitude, maybe even secure them in their jobs.
 
I'd like to invite the whole crew to OSH this summer for a session at Theater in the Woods.

The FAA Administrator should commission a medal for distinguished flying service - sort of a DFC for civilians.
 
You don't think that it was a miracle that they were over a very suitable landing site? And being able to immediately and decisively implement the basic training is, while perhaps not miraculous, certainly praiseworthy.

A miracle? Well if the very river that provided safe refuge for landing hadn't provided such a great habitat for such high numbers of perilous geese to bring them down... it's just a flip of a coin in this case.

Praisworthy for sure though, I agree. Well done.
 
I'd like to invite the whole crew to OSH this summer for a session at Theater in the Woods.

The FAA Administrator should commission a medal for distinguished flying service - sort of a DFC for civilians.

Yeah, and if there's no medal, then initiate one.

It's a great PR oportunity for all of aviation. It's good news when good news is scarce and so ride the wave for all it's worth while it's available.
 
The FAA Administrator should commission a medal for distinguished flying service - sort of a DFC for civilians.

I really like this idea. Only question would be what would the criteria for receiving it be?
 
New info just came in from another web site. Don't shoot the messenger

the pilots shut down the wrong engine. Then they tried a restart on the bad engine.


from CNN today, is this adequate info to put this idea to rest?

"She (edit DT: Kitty, of the NTSB ) said the flight data recorder indicated "both engines lost power simultaneously" when the plane was at 3,200 feet some 90 seconds after taking off from New York's LaGuardia airport Thursday afternoon."
 
Just a FYI I do not think there is a Congressional Medal of Freedom. There is the Congressional Medal of Honor which goes to military personal. But the only Medal of Freedom I am aware of is the Presidential Medal of Freedom that was started in 1963 by President Kennedy.

I may be mistaken. In either case I agree the award of such a medal is not warranted in this case. But that is not to say that these guy do not deserve a serious amounts of thanks and recognition. What would be nice is for US Airways to give them a huge bonus of gratitude, maybe even secure them in their jobs.
You're probably right about it being "Presidential", not "Congressional". I "conmixulated" the two! :) (Figured that, as long as I'm making up medals, I might as well make up words too! :))
 
A miracle? Well if the very river that provided safe refuge for landing hadn't provided such a great habitat for such high numbers of perilous geese to bring them down... it's just a flip of a coin in this case.

Praisworthy for sure though, I agree. Well done.
Are the geese attracted by such a large, fast-moving river? :dunno: I honestly don't know if there's a connection between the two. I've certainly heard retention ponds and water hazards on golf courses, but that river seems to be, shall we say, a different kettle of fish altogether.

And Tim's idea of an FAA medal or award of some sort certainly wouldn't seem inappropriate.
 
A miracle? Well if the very river that provided safe refuge for landing hadn't provided such a great habitat for such high numbers of perilous geese to bring them down... it's just a flip of a coin in this case.

Praisworthy for sure though, I agree. Well done.

Are the geese attracted by such a large, fast-moving river? :dunno: I honestly don't know if there's a connection between the two. I've certainly heard retention ponds and water hazards on golf courses, but that river seems to be, shall we say, a different kettle of fish altogether.

And Tim's idea of an FAA medal or award of some sort certainly wouldn't seem inappropriate.

The Long Island sound isn't very wide at the LaGuardia area and there are a number of estuaries in the area where the geese like to roost. As the airplane seems to have been nailed at arounf 3000', the geese may well have been enroute from someplace else (probably moving from colder air).

You usually don't see geese on open water (like the Hudson) except in some relatively protected areas.
 
I regret re-posting info that the crew made a mistake shutting down an engine that I read from another web site. Looks like it was a double engine out, and the crew acted in a professional way and probably saved the lives of all on board.
 
To qualify as miraculous, something inexplicable would have needed to occur. For example, the Hudson River would have had to appear out of nowhere just in time for the plane to land on it. No, several million years in advance doesn't count.

This was fortuitous.
 
To qualify as miraculous, something inexplicable would have needed to occur. For example, the Hudson River would have had to appear out of nowhere just in time for the plane to land on it. No, several million years in advance doesn't count.

This was fortuitous.
Or maybe if the Hudson River parted and exposed an ancient airstrip of Atlantis!!! Now that would have been something! Instead it is just a plain old ditching with no loss of life, happens almost every week. ;)
 
Or maybe if the Hudson River parted and exposed an ancient airstrip of Atlantis!!! Now that would have been something! Instead it is just a plain old ditching with no loss of life, happens almost every week. ;)

Yes, that would have qualified as miraculous.

Or if suddenly a million balloons appeared, tethered to the wings, and provided just enough lift to allow the airplane to gently settle down onto a parking lot where the cars mystically parted to make room for a perfect touchdown.
 
More on the ditching switch. This was sent to me by a friend and former USAF pilot and saftey instructor

Subject: The Airbus Ditching Button
There's been much discussion about US Airways Flight 1549 and the extraordinary circumstances that befell the Airbus A320-200 (N106US) and her compliment of 150 passengers and 5 crew. At least preliminarily, it appears a double bird strike disabled each of theCFM56-5B4/P engine forcingCaptain C.B. Sullenberger IIIand his First Officerto ditch the jetliner in the Hudson River.

As the aircraft was making its 'final approach' to the Hudson, the crew was preparing the aircraft and its passengers for the water landing, including, some speculate, by activating the ditching system on the A320. The button, cleverly labeled 'ditching', is located on the 'Cabin Press' section of the overhead panel shown above.

So what does that infrequently used button actually do?

When pressed, it commands the aircraft operating system to close the outflow valve, emergency ram air inlet, avionics inlet, extract valve and flow control valve. In addition, it will immediately shutdown the cabin fans. The button itself has a guard over it to prevent accidental activation. The system is available on all A320 family, A340/A330 and A380 aircraft.

According to the A320 quick reference guide, the ditching procedure calls for Flaps 3 and a minimum approach speed of 150 kts. The system should be activated at 2000 feet AGL and Airbus recommends 11 degrees of pitch at the time of touchdown.

The ultimate purpose of the system is to seal the aircraft to prevent water from undermining the buoyancy of the aircraft to keep it afloat in the event that the airframe remains intact after impacting the water. Federal Aviation RegulationPart 25, Section 801describes the safety requirements in the event of a ditching:


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Yes, that would have qualified as miraculous.

Or if suddenly a million balloons appeared, tethered to the wings, and provided just enough lift to allow the airplane to gently settle down onto a parking lot where the cars mystically parted to make room for a perfect touchdown.

Or Bugs-Bunny like "Air Brakes" stopped the plane in mid-air.
Yep all of those. Of course then Chuck Jones would have his own church.
 
Are the geese attracted by such a large, fast-moving river? :dunno: I honestly don't know if there's a connection between the two. I've certainly heard retention ponds and water hazards on golf courses, but that river seems to be, shall we say, a different kettle of fish altogether.

There are a lot of marshes, bays and sheltered areas in the area.
 
I heard on the news this morning that Captain Sullivan and his family have been invited to attend President-Elect Obama's inauguration tomorrow as "distinguished guests".
 
I was wondering about the flaps, I noticed that they were deployed some. Are they hydraulic or electric? If they are hydraulic don't the engines have to be working to make the hydraulics work?
 
I heard on the news this morning that Captain Sullivan and his family have been invited to attend President-Elect Obama's inauguration tomorrow as "distinguished guests".

Credit where credit is due department: His name is Sullenberger.

-Skip
 
I was wondering about the flaps, I noticed that they were deployed some. Are they hydraulic or electric? If they are hydraulic don't the engines have to be working to make the hydraulics work?
My guess is that they are hydraulic and the pumps are electric. So even in a dual engine out there are batteries that can run the pumps...for a while.
 
Does the A320 have a RAT? If so, it may auto deploy in the event of a complete electrical power loss. Or perhaps the APU started. That would provide power and hydro to operate certain things.
 
NewsHour had a great segment on the Hudson River ditching.

They just posted the video, audio, and transcript.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/transportation/jan-june09/crashaftermath_01-16.html

Among other things, John Wiley knew of Sully personally and confirmed what Greg said as they don't practice dual engine failures.

Having spent over 20 years at the National Transportation Safety Board, the only time I got called or the board got called was when there was a real disaster, usually involving fatalities. So, this is a great story.

JUDY WOODRUFF: John Wiley, as a pilot, what does it look like to you, how rare?

JOHN WILEY, Pilot: Well, it's beyond the realm of contemplation.

You just -- you go through various drills in the simulators. You have engines fail. You have systems fail. You don't have a double engine failure on takeoff that winds up ditching in a cold -- a cold river, the Hudson.
...
JOHN WILEY: Well, Sully is an experienced aviator. If you look at his history, you will find out he has been with the company for over -- since 1980.

He is also a glider pilot. And you have to realize that, when you are going through abnormal circumstances, one of the things that you are trying to do is get as much normal back as you can.

The engines are gone. The airplane is now essentially a glider. Sully's looking around, I would imagine, to find out where he can put this thing down with the least amount of impact and also the least amount of danger.

He's a skill aviator. He has flown a lot of different airplanes. I have met Sully a number of times and worked with him briefly. We're not buds or close friends, but we are good acquaintances. He is what we would call a good stick, a good, good aviator.

JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Greg Feith, how much did it complicate his job that, yes, he was going down in a river, but you had bridges there, you had current; there were boats?

GREGORY FEITH: Oh, this -- the decisions that this captain had to make were extraordinary, because he didn't have a lot of time. He didn't have a lot of options.

And, as John said, I mean, there came a -- a point where that crew decided that their only option, because they weren't going to make it back to an airport, was to put it down in the water. They stayed committed to that option and did what they could to salvage a very bad situation.

They -- they just followed their training. And -- and, as John said, it comes down to airmanship, skills, abilities, knowledge and experience. And maybe a lesser experienced pilot may not have accomplished the success that Sully did in this particular event.
 
I was wondering about the flaps, I noticed that they were deployed some. Are they hydraulic or electric? If they are hydraulic don't the engines have to be working to make the hydraulics work?

Another question that comes to mind is: Is it SOP to have the APU running on departure? If so, I assume it would provide enough electrical power for all systems.
 
Originally said by Jay Leno
A US Airways airplane flying out of La Guardia had to make an emergency landing in the Hudson River after it hit a flock of geese. Here's the amazing part: They actually could have made it to Newark but the passengers said, "No no no! Go for the river!"
:rofl:
 
Are the geese attracted by such a large, fast-moving river? :dunno: I honestly don't know if there's a connection between the two. I've certainly heard retention ponds and water hazards on golf courses, but that river seems to be, shall we say, a different kettle of fish altogether.

And Tim's idea of an FAA medal or award of some sort certainly wouldn't seem inappropriate.

Yeah, they are very attracted to rivers and they prefer the more sheltered areas along their shores, not the fast moving midstream. One sportsmen's group out here puts up goose nesting tubs along the banks of rivers here, most of which are fast moving. Maybe those flatlander geese are different.

I have been considering changing my assessment title to perhaps "ironic miracle"...
 
I have been considering changing my assessment title to perhaps "ironic miracle"...
Well that would not be the proper use of the irony.

The definition of irony, in the simplest form, is the difference between what someone would reasonably expect to happen and what actually does. Meaning that something that happens that you would not even reasonably expect to happen is considered irony.

I think it reasonable to expect that at sometime two things in the air may collide. Now if the flight had an in flight collision with an elephant that was jumping on a trampoline! Well, that would be ironic!

 
Originally said by Jay Leno
A US Airways airplane flying out of La Guardia had to make an emergency landing in the Hudson River after it hit a flock of geese. Here's the amazing part: They actually could have made it to Newark but the passengers said, "No no no! Go for the river!"
:rofl:

No no no! That can't be right! The passengers didn't want USAir to charge them for the water! :D
 
Well that would not be the proper use of the irony.



I think it reasonable to expect that at sometime two things in the air may collide. Now if the flight had an in flight collision with an elephant that was jumping on a trampoline! Well, that would be ironic!



Or perhaps not... thanks for the definition.

I'm trying to squeeze a miracle out of this somehow for you Grant but, given the high density of birds at all times it is probably more a question of why this has not happened sooner, maybe that's your miracle! Indeed it should probably be a standard part of the local emergency checklist for anybody flying there.
 
I'm trying to squeeze a miracle out of this somehow for you Grant but, given the high density of birds at all times it is probably more a question of why this has not happened sooner, maybe that's your miracle! Indeed it should probably be a standard part of the local emergency checklist for anybody flying there.

Shouldn't engine outs be a standard part of an emergency checklist for any pilot in any plane?
 
I was wondering about the flaps, I noticed that they were deployed some. Are they hydraulic or electric? If they are hydraulic don't the engines have to be working to make the hydraulics work?

My guess is that they are hydraulic and the pumps are electric. So even in a dual engine out there are batteries that can run the pumps...for a while.

There are engine driven hydraulic pumps AND electric driven hydraulic pumps. The flaps are hydraulic.
 
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