Got “thrown out” of an airport today

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steingar said:
Ahh Florida. Every time I see something too stupid to have happened happen it's in Florida.

Guy loads fake warbird running, and gets out of the cockpit (while running) to sort out passengers, Florida. Does this with a gaggle of unauthorized folks nearby. Florida. Unmarked untrained marshaller inches from the spinning prop. Florida.

But the kicker is folks coming in to defend all this.

Ahh Florida.
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You mean like the person who walked into the prop after a dinner date? Oh wait, that was Georgia.
Or the guy flying a short final at 180kts and had a midair with a 152? That's right. That was in California.
How about the guy who jumped out with no parachute because of a bad landing? Dangit! That was North Carolina.

I'm starting to think that maybe stupid isn't just in Florida.
 
SkyChaser said:
Unless you admit that you were there, and you saw Salty doing things that he has repeatedly said that he was not doing, and that are not supported by what we saw in the above video you claim to be basing everything on, your story is stupid. I'm sorry, but it is freaking stupid. Why would a worker escort Salty, who is walking around the airplane, but staying away from the prop, away, if the people beside the plane are allowed to be there, and the other people on the ramp are allowed to be there, and the guy with the leg brace was allowed to be there? Make your story make sense, please, because it doesn't.

Either hotloading is not a safety issue, and Salty should not have been escorted off the airport, or hotloading is a safety issue and should not be done on an unsecured ramp. Make up your mind.
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I’m going off what’s clearly in the video


When you arrive on a scene and everyone is pointing at one person that’s almost always your trouble maker, everyone was looking at and treating Greg like the trouble maker


Now according to Greg lots of other dramatic things occurred, babies in carriages, scared cafe goers, and so on, however even in Greg’s own video he publicly posted we strangely don’t see any of that, what we see is a bunch of people reacting to Greg likes he’s the problem

I’m going to go out on a limb and put my money on the reactions and actions of everyone in that video
 
GaryM said:
And the person calling for the activity to stop is not taken to task later if they made the wrong call. Because that isn't how you build a safety culture.
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Yep. I’m a cave diver, and what you describe was hammered over and over during training. I’ve tried to carry the same attitude into aviation.
 
Salty said:
I'm sorry, but you aren't making much more sense than TampaPilot...
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SkyChaser said:
...some guy, who turns out to be a pilot [...] rightfully freaked out and ended up having to take a video because no one would listen?
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nauga said:
I realize you weren't there and might not be describing it as it actually occurred, I'm just trying to understand the situation as you've laid it out.
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It's getting pretty convoluted but I wasn't really addressing @Salty here.

Nauga,
and a cast of characters
 
TampaPilot said:
I’m going off what’s clearly in the video
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Really?!

I just watched it again and that’s not there. Please tell me specifically at what time stamp in the video everyone is pointing and looking at @Salty because I don’t see it.

What you describe is simply not there.
 
nauga said:
So you would allow him to further distract you from what you have already described as a dangerous task.
I agree, and yet we disagree on whether or not Salty's actions were appropriate. Am I stupid as well?

Nauga,
and his secret ballot
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I mean, if you're also thinking of hotloading an airplane without a pilot sitting at the controls, on a crowded ramp with untrained public around...I think that would be pretty stupid. Doing something stupid doesn't make you stupid, but it does mean you made a stupid decision or two to get to that point. You're only stupid if you keep making them and never listen to anyone who points out how and why they are stupid.

If I considered Salty to be in danger, yes, I would have allowed him to "distract" me, because apparently, I didn't consider it to be dangerous to the general public around me, just the ones close to the plane. It's not hard to listen while keeping your eyes open, though, so it wouldn't have to distract you entirely.

I think what I am trying to say is that there is a incongrueity here. Either hotloading is dangerous to the public, in which case it shouldn't be done on a crowded ramp, or it's not, in which case Salty was in no danger and the worker overreacted, and Salty should have been fine walking around doing whatever he wanted to do. I don't see an in-between (which may be my own fault and narrow-mindedness about prop safety) and I obviously think that hotloading falls into the "dangerous to the public" camp.
 
I watched the video more than once, but somehow missed the part where Salty allegedly "freaked out". Where is that part of the video?
 
Salty said:
I'm sorry, but you aren't making much more sense than TampaPilot. You know, the guy that keeps doxxing me but has remained anonymous?

These folks in the bottom left were way closer to the plane than I was. Why aren't you concerned about them? They don't seem to be concerned about me. In the second photo included the best shot of the pilots face I got. He never even noticed me. Why is my taking a video further away than other bystanders, that clearly isn't distracting the folks performing the operation an issue to you?

View attachment 113191
View attachment 113192
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The pilot is in the red shirt?

One hand on the ship, supervising pax loading, blocking access for a pax to get to the front of the plane, or the forward cockpit, and also inches away from the throttle and fuel cut off?

Yeah you really saved the day..by becoming a huge distraction and trying to rat and dox some guy giving rides publicly on the internet


It’s like the guy who gets kicked out of a restaurant, movie, meeting, business, or anywhere else, normally they are in the right, right?
 
Capngrog said:
I watched the video more than once, but somehow missed the part where Salty allegedly "freaked out". Where is that part of the video?
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I didn't see it either, but someone (who wasn't there) later described it that way.

WRT non attribution for calling out safety issues, I agree there, pointing it out should be non-punitive; but most of us were also trained to avoid making an unsafe situation worse. While there's general consensus on hot seating, there does not seem to be on the later aspects.

Nauga,
winding the clock
 
TampaPilot said:
Yeah you really saved the day..by becoming a huge distraction and trying to rat and dox some guy giving rides publicly on the internet
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Despite your claims, nothing in the video shows him “becoming a huge distraction.” And I haven’t seen him dox anyone.

You’re tossing around lots of accusations without backing up any of them. And you have yet to explain your interest in the matter that motivated joining POA.
 
TampaPilot said:
I’m going off what’s clearly in the video


When you arrive on a scene and everyone is pointing at one person that’s almost always your trouble maker, everyone was looking at and treating Greg like the trouble maker


Now according to Greg lots of other dramatic things occurred, babies in carriages, scared cafe goers, and so on, however even in Greg’s own video he publicly posted we strangely don’t see any of that, what we see is a bunch of people reacting to Greg likes he’s the problem

I’m going to go out on a limb and put my money on the reactions and actions of everyone in that video
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This is what was seen in the video:

0:01 - Salty slightly forward of right wing, one person on left wing, one person on seat, one person standing on ground next to seat, all of which are head down in the cockpit), indeterminate amount of people (feet seen under plane) standing by plane
0:02 - same positions for all but Salty; Salty now even with wingtip
0:03 - same position for all but Salty; Salty now slight aft of wing
0:04 - others move out of frame, Salty now slightly forward of elevator and rudder
0:05 Salty walks forward to capture tail number
0:06 Salty captures tail number in frame
0:07 Salty begins to walk around elevator
0:08 Salty is behind elevator
0:09 Salty clears the rudder, but still behind elevator. Seven people are standing off the left wingtip. Two are young children, and a third is roughly a teenager.
0:10 Salty walks to left side of elevator. Two more people standing behind the left wing come into view, a woman and another person smaller than her.
0:11 Salty is standing behind plane. You see four people, two men on the wing, and two women on the ramp behind the wing. One appears to be a teenager, possibly a young-20s girl
0:12 Salty turns camera to focus on the pax in the seat and the two men on the wing, who still have not looked at him once.
0:13 Salty walks around the left tip of the elevator
0:14 Salty walks behind the two women by the wing.
0:15 Salty is behind the left wing of the airplane. A man in a blue shirt is beckoning to him from directly in front of the spinning prop
0:16 Salty is still behind the left wing, and the man in the blue shirt is walking towards the left wing tip. There are people on the porch of the building, and a man leaning against the hangar, and some other people in front of the building with a porch.
0:17 - video doesn't show me the last two seconds.

The only two people who even looked at Salty were the blue-shirted man and the man leaning against the hangar watching the Yak. If you're not one of the three, that must have been you. :D
 
Capngrog said:
I watched the video more than once, but somehow missed the part where Salty allegedly "freaked out". Where is that part of the video?
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That little wording was my fault. He didn't freak out in the video. I was saying that to mean talking to the people and videoing them when they didn't respond, but it wasn't very clear.
 
Half Fast said:
Despite your claims, nothing in the video shows him “becoming a huge distraction.” And I haven’t seen him dox anyone.

You’re tossing around lots of accusations without backing up any of them. And you have yet to explain your interest in the matter that motivated joining POA.
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He made claims about a pilot he filmed, and filmed his N number, and posted it on the internet

I don’t think the people who work at that airport came out, talked to him, and booted him from the whole airport because he was being a great guy
 
I know Florida is in America (hence FAA regs) but for example in the Canadian regs it clearly states that what this pilot did is illegal. If it's so safe to do what he did, why do other countries disallow it? Further, barring any similar language in the FAA regs, maybe it's not stated specifically because it will fall under the catch-all category of "Careless or reckless operation". I'd say, let the FSDO take a look and they can decide. For anyone interested, this is what CARs (Canadian regs say):

  • (2) No person shall leave an engine of an aircraft running unless
    • (a) a pilot’s seat is occupied by a person who is competent to control the aircraft; or

    • (b) where no persons are on board the aircraft,
      • (i) precautions have been taken to prevent the aircraft from moving, and

      • (ii) the aircraft is not left unattended.
 
SkyChaser said:
This is what was seen in the video:

0:01 - Salty slightly forward of right wing, one person on left wing, one person on seat, one person standing on ground next to seat, all of which are head down in the cockpit), indeterminate amount of people (feet seen under plane) standing by plane
0:02 - same positions for all but Salty; Salty now even with wingtip
0:03 - same position for all but Salty; Salty now slight aft of wing
0:04 - others move out of frame, Salty now slightly forward of elevator and rudder
0:05 Salty walks forward to capture tail number
0:06 Salty captures tail number in frame
0:07 Salty begins to walk around elevator
0:08 Salty is behind elevator
0:09 Salty clears the rudder, but still behind elevator. Seven people are standing off the left wingtip. Two are young children, and a third is roughly a teenager.
0:10 Salty walks to left side of elevator. Two more people standing behind the left wing come into view, a woman and another person smaller than her.
0:11 Salty is standing behind plane. You see four people, two men on the wing, and two women on the ramp behind the wing. One appears to be a teenager, possibly a young-20s girl
0:12 Salty turns camera to focus on the pax in the seat and the two men on the wing, who still have not looked at him once.
0:13 Salty walks around the left tip of the elevator
0:14 Salty walks behind the two women by the wing.
0:15 Salty is behind the left wing of the airplane. A man in a blue shirt is beckoning to him from directly in front of the spinning prop
0:16 Salty is still behind the left wing, and the man in the blue shirt is walking towards the left wing tip. There are people on the porch of the building, and a man leaning against the hangar, and some other people in front of the building with a porch.
0:17 - video doesn't show me the last two seconds.

The only two people who even looked at Salty were the blue-shirted man and the man leaning against the hangar watching the Yak. If you're not one of the three, that must have been you. :D
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If strangers normally look at you like this, especially when their family member is getting into a bright red Yak, that’s not a good thing

B48A4DFB-800E-4C57-BF5A-61C25428E625.jpeg

That’s the “wtf” look
 
TampaPilot said:
If strangers normally look at you like this, especially when their family member is getting into a bright red Yak, that’s not a good thing

View attachment 113194
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Wow. That's your proof of your story? Seriously? Have you ever seen anyone get videoed before when they don't expect it? There's a whole abyss of difference between what you claimed and the "proof" that you are providing to back up your claim.
 
SkyChaser said:
If I considered Salty to be in danger, yes, I would have allowed him to "distract" me, because apparently, I didn't consider it to be dangerous to the general public around me, just the ones close to the plane. It's not hard to listen while keeping your eyes open, though, so it wouldn't have to distract you entirely.
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It's not black and white. If one of the safety mitigations is marshalling the crowd or at least keeping an eye on them then having to deal with an interloper is a distraction that degrades safety. Marshalling or not, if that interloper draws attention away from the known danger then that also degrades safety. Danger is not binary, nor is safety.

Set aside the 'hotloading' part for a minute. I think it's *relatively* safe to start my airplane on a crowded ramp, and I take precautions to make sure people are aware I'm starting. If I start and then see someone I don't know moving towards my airplane while recording it, perhaps even looking a little agitated, do I assume they're trained, know to avoid me, and won't do anything dumb? After all, idling on the ramp is safe isn't it? If it's safe we don't need to worry about strangers approaching unannounced? If it's not we shouldn't do it, right?

SkyChaser said:
I obviously think that hotloading falls into the "dangerous to the public" camp.
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That's not what I've been questioning from the start.

Nauga,
out of the corner of his eye
 
The amount of contention this thread has created has even surpassed my expectations. I must look at things through a different lens, but I don’t see what everyone is getting their panties twisted over. It seems things have really gotten out of hand here. Geez.
 
None of these guys seem to be exactly
applauding Greg ether

6607EDA9-8962-4A92-A208-4AC34AB20BB5.jpeg


Normally people who are embodying aviation excellence don’t get kicked off a airport
 
Chrisgoesflying said:
I know Florida is in America (hence FAA regs) but for example in the Canadian regs it clearly states that what this pilot did is illegal. If it's so safe to do what he did, why do other countries disallow it? Further, barring any similar language in the FAA regs, maybe it's not stated specifically because it will fall under the catch-all category of "Careless or reckless operation". I'd say, let the FSDO take a look and they can decide. For anyone interested, this is what CARs (Canadian regs say):

  • (2) No person shall leave an engine of an aircraft running unless
    • (a) a pilot’s seat is occupied by a person who is competent to control the aircraft; or

    • (b) where no persons are on board the aircraft,
      • (i) precautions have been taken to prevent the aircraft from moving, and

      • (ii) the aircraft is not left unattended.
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Probably the only US regs that were broken were OSHA regs (no safety vest) and possibly FAR 91.13.

Frankly, if the guy were wearing the vest, things would have been very different. Nobody would have been looking at me, because I would not have yelled the warning at him, which is the only reason anybody even noticed me.
 
nauga said:
It's not black and white. If one of the safety mitigations is marshalling the crowd or at least keeping an eye on them then having to deal with an interloper is a distraction that degrades safety. Marshalling or not, if that interloper draws attention away from the known danger then that also degrades safety. Danger is not binary, nor is safety.

Set aside the 'hotloading' part for a minute. I think it's *relatively* safe to start my airplane on a crowded ramp, and I take precautions to make sure people are aware I'm starting. If I start and then see someone I don't know moving towards my airplane while recording it, perhaps even looking a little agitated, do I assume they're trained, know to avoid me, and won't do anything dumb? After all, idling on the ramp is safe isn't it? If it's safe we don't need to worry about strangers approaching unannounced? If it's not we shouldn't do it, right?

That's not what I've been questioning from the start.

Nauga,
out of the corner of his eye
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Okay, assuming you were talking about hotloading was my mistake. I shouldn't assume. Sorry about that.

My problem with your view on this, is that Salty didn't just come up recording. He tried to talk to them first and they brushed him off. He recorded after that, from his story, and where the video starts, in my opinion, backs up that story.
 
SkyChaser said:
Wow. That's your proof of your story? Seriously? Have you ever seen anyone get videoed before when they don't expect it? There's a whole abyss of difference between what you claimed and the "proof" that you are providing to back up your claim.
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Proof is he got kicked off a friggin’ airport! Lol
 
Salty said:
Probably the only US regs that were broken were OSHA regs (no safety vest) and possibly FAR 91.13.

Frankly, if the guy were wearing the vest, things would have been very different. Nobody would have been looking at me, because I would not have yelled the warning at him, which is the only reason anybody even noticed me.
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Watch your video, you were getting some side eyes before the worker escorted you away from the running plane and off the entire airport


Just curious, did they also trespass you?
Wonder if that would effect getting a airport badge, I never heard of a pilot getting kicked off airport before
 
TampaPilot said:
None of these guys seem to be exactly
applauding Greg ether

View attachment 113195

Normally people who are embodying aviation excellence don’t get kicked off a airport
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Okay, fine. The blue shirt guy is mad that he was yelled at for an unsafe operation. The rest of the guys you can't even tell what their expressions are, and how do you know that they weren't disapproving of the hotloading? Your evidence is super slim, if that's all you've got.

I couldn't care less about your "usually people who are good don't get kicked out" argument. Meet the wrong people, and you'll get kicked out for being a good guy. People who run unsafe operations don't like safety minded people.
 
SkyChaser said:
Okay, assuming you were talking about hotloading was my mistake. I shouldn't assume. Sorry about that.

My problem with your view on this, is that Salty didn't just come up recording. He tried to talk to them first and they brushed him off. He recorded after that, from his story, and where the video starts, in my opinion, backs up that story.
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Odd none of this makes his video

I’m sure it’s happenstance, just like him being the only one kicked from the field
 
RyanB said:
The amount of contention this thread has created has even surpassed my expectations. I must look at things through a different lens, but I don’t see what everyone is getting their panties twisted over. It seems things have really gotten out of hand here. Geez.
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Really?

It’s been obvious to me from post 1 this would be a contentious thread.
 
TampaPilot said:
Proof is he got kicked off a friggin’ airport! Lol
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That's no proof. The airport manager, as previously stated, was also engaged in such behavior. It doesn't take much to realize WHY Salty was kicked out.

TampaPilot said:
Watch your video, you were getting some side eyes before the worker escorted you away from the running plane and off the entire airport


Just curious, did they also trespass you?
Wonder if that would effect getting a airport badge, I never heard of a pilot getting kicked off airport before
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Yeah, because he was being escorted out. Haven't you ever seen someone get arrested before? The same thing. Or being escorted out of a store, or a plane, or anything? It doesn't matter if they are actually guilty of anything. People side-eye all the time, and it has no bearing on anything.

TampaPilot said:
Odd none of this makes his video

I’m sure it’s happenstance, just like him being the only one kicked from the field
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From what I can tell, none of that made the video because the video was taken to establish the tail number and the airplane running with people around. That would be enough for any reasonable person to understand the risk and the danger.
 
Salty said:
How do you know I was the only one asked to leave?
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Most of us have only your words and video to base our opinions on so if you're not telling us the whole story and what's missing is important then it's not surprising we're off by a bit.

Nauga,
as good as a mile
 
TampaPilot said:
Safety wise it looked like a nothing burger

It also became much less safe when Greg got involved
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It doesn't look like a "nothing burger" to me to be honest with you, but again, I don't know what all this arguing is about. Salty felt it was an unsafe situation (I would too) so he's free to report it to the FSDO and let them decide if 91.13 was violated. Again, in Canada, this behaviour would be 100% against the regs. I assume the only reason why it's not clearly spelled out in U.S. regs is because this is a prime example for 91.13 but I'm no lawyer - let the FAA guys and gals decide.
 
Salty said:
How do you know I was the only one asked to leave?
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One would think that’s something you would have stated in your original post

But as this post has gone on, probably not going like you thought it was going to go, we now even had a baby in a carriage just in front off the prop and tons of other stuff where you saved the day and were a great mediator, all just happened to not get captured by that camera of yours

So now you’re saying others got kicked off the airport too?
 
nauga said:
Most of us have only your words and video to base our opinions on so if you're not telling us the whole story and what's missing is important then it's not surprising we're off by a bit.

Nauga,
as good as a mile
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How is that even relevant? How is any of that last rant even relevant? I also didn't tell you what shoes I was wearing. :rolleyes:
 
SkyChaser said:
That's no proof. The airport manager, as previously stated, was also engaged in such behavior. It doesn't take much to realize WHY Salty was kicked out.



Yeah, because he was being escorted out. Haven't you ever seen someone get arrested before? The same thing. Or being escorted out of a store, or a plane, or anything? It doesn't matter if they are actually guilty of anything. People side-eye all the time, and it has no bearing on anything.



From what I can tell, none of that made the video because the video was taken to establish the tail number and the airplane running with people around. That would be enough for any reasonable person to understand the risk and the danger.
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I have never seen a pilot escorted off a airport before, no
 
TampaPilot said:
probably not going like you thought it was going to go
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True. I never thought anyone would be foolish enough to defend what is in the video. Disagree with the level of danger, sure, but say it's perfectly fine, I'm surprised by that.
 
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