B17 crash at Dallas.

Damn. Hate to see something like this.
 
If the local sheriff had done the report, eman and the rest of POA would have been raking him over the coals for his lack of understanding of the words he used and general ignorance.

This man was the expert, he knew what had happened on the visual events side, and provided information that we as pilots wanted to know.

I could not have done that, my emotions are too near the surface, but I can function under severe stress in a dangerous and fast moving environment. It takes all kinds to make a whole world. Congratulations for being able to deal with that much personal loss, in addition to the planes. He did good, and better than most of us.

I suspect that he has a series of very bad nights., and I sympathies with him.

For the Pilots and crew, Rest In Peace. My very most sympathy for the families, tough times for them.
 
It will be interesting to hear from the airboss on this one. What was supposed to be happening here?
 
Datadriver said:
It will be interesting to hear from the airboss on this one. What was supposed to be happening here?
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I don't think there's anything the airboss could have done about it. I was literally yards from the airboss to the north. It happened so fast, it was ridiculous, and I doubt a radio call would have made literally any difference.
 
Word on one news report was that the airboss told the P63 to go ahead and "take the lead" and pass the B17. Correct call in retrospect would be to knock it off. Not verified. Still looks like a P63 focused on the other fighters and trying to regroup, not aware of the B17 below and to the right while he was looking left.
The group shot of everyone flying just before impact looks like the B17 was low compared to the other heavy planes and the lateral separation didn't allow for much error.
 
Sluggo63 said:
If he did see the B-17, the way to recover from this is to roll out and pass behind and underneath the bomber. Increasing the bank and pulling it the absolute worst thing to do, as it makes the geometry worse since you’re now keeping your turn circle inside the other plane’s.
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Yeap. And rolling out and going low keeps the other aircraft in sight.
 
I know nothing about airshow protocols, but shouldn't slower aircraft be on the inside of turns? The quicker fighters with a wider turn radius and bubble canopies staying on the outside?
 
Skymac said:
I have others disagree, but this wasn’t formation, it was just chaos. Loosely organized chaos.
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Lets back off of that a bit. Yes, it wasn't a formation, but it was two strings. A bomber string and a fighter string, intended to keep the airplanes in front of the crowd a bit longer, and they weren't even flying that tight to the crowd, just a lazy racetrack. Something went wrong, terribly wrong and that will have to be figured out, but this almost certainly was something going "not as briefed."

They do have patterns that they fly, such as one racetrack and another, and lining up on different lines, which are always carefully briefed. The P-63 pilot was literally one of the top Tora pilots and what they do is intended to look chaotic but actually be very safe and maintain clear lines of separation. I've shot their demo from underneath on the side of the runway.
 
Skymac said:
I have others disagree, but this wasn’t formation, it was just chaos. Loosely organized chaos.
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My formation comment was related to that poster's question. He claims to have done lots of formation, but didn't understand how the P-63 pilot would not have noticed the B-17.
 
RyanShort1 said:
A bomber string and a fighter string, intended to keep the airplanes in front of the crowd a bit longer, and they weren't even flying that tight to the crowd, just a lazy racetrack.
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Not having been there as you were, that is the part that is boggling my mind. The idea of 'lazy racetrack' patterns with dissimilar aircraft. I'm sure that will be a key focal point for the NTSB to go back to the prebrief and attempt to ascertain what was supposed to happen. From the outside, it looks like a poor plan that left no room for much error in execution which is very different from the airshow prebriefs I've been a part of.
 
I get how it all works, seen it and been around it many times. Doesn’t change the fact it makes me angry. There’s not an attack on his character here either.
 
dtuuri said:
I know nothing about airshow protocols, but shouldn't slower aircraft be on the inside of turns? The quicker fighters with a wider turn radius and bubble canopies staying on the outside?
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This is not what happened here.

Fighters and bombers were to the left and right (respectively) of some prominent ground reference (runway or similar). P-63 crossed over.
 
Skymac said:
I have others disagree, but this wasn’t formation, it was just chaos. Loosely organized chaos.
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Agreed, this was not formation. But no, it was organized.

The patterns are defined to keep planes away from each other. The patterns are briefed to the pilots. And if everyone follows the setup, things go well.

There have been some issues at some shows where not all the pilots attended the briefing, but were allowed to fly.
 
Pinecone said:
This is not what happened here.

Fighters and bombers were to the left and right (respectively) of some prominent ground reference (runway or similar). P-63 crossed over.
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Hmmmm, maybe a single ground reference is a big mistake.
 
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Pinecone said:
This is not what happened here.

Fighters and bombers were to the left and right (respectively) of some prominent ground reference (runway or similar). P-63 crossed over.
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"Crossed over" what?

Screenshot_20221113_113316.png
​
Here's the McDonald's seen in the background. Looks like both aircraft were on the same side of runway 31, by the wreckage location:

Screenshot_20221113_120723.png​
 
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Watched the clip that was linked to twiter, (spelling error intensional). After the shock of seeing the video, I looked at a few comments forgetting I wasn’t on POA. The speculation, innuendo, and just moronic conspiracy theories got my blood pressure well beyond the red arc. How could pilots say this stuff. When I went to post and was asked to log in I realized I wasn’t in Kansas anymore but the hellish twit zone. Reinforced why I will never be on any of those social media sites. Thanks for letting me vent. Now back to your regularly scheduled broadcast.
 
Skymac said:
I have others disagree, but this wasn’t formation, it was just chaos. Loosely organized chaos.
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The whole business of airshows these days is the *simulation* of danger. Just making individual flybys doesn't cut it anymore. Soon there's a flash of explosions on the ground simulating a bomb drop, soon they have fighters "escorting" the bombers, soon they want "bad guys" attacking and getting chased off by the escorts. Eventually, they develop systems to make it look like the flight patterns are random like combat while still keeping them on known, safe, tracks. But...just takes one person dropping the bubble.

It's the whole "frog in a kettle" analogy. They ease the flight patterns into something with more and more risk, nothing bad happens, and soon it feels like there's no risk at all.

Eleven years ago, a P-51 and a Skyraider clipped during an airshow at Duxford, England. A Skyraider was flying in a Vic with two Mustangs. "The accident occurred after the Skyraider pilot had lost sight of his leader and continued to make a tighter turn than his leader’s aircraft, which had slowed down. This caused their respective flight paths to converge, resulting in the collision." (UK AAIB report) The P-63 pilot was expected to keep track of a lot more aircraft....

Ron Wanttaja
 
This is really awful all around. I talked to the pilot, and saw him fly, just this June at the WOTN Expo. If I remember correctly he said it didn't maneuver fast, which might have played a part in it. Here's a picture of when I saw the 63F. Mr Hutain was a real nice guy and was willing to answer all my questions (I had a lot!). RIP to him and the B17 crew. Awful way to go.
 

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Country Flier said:
There's a front angle video...it looks very clear in this video that the P-63 should have easily been able to see the B-17...not saying its definitive, but certainly looks like the P-63 would have had that B-17 filling its windscreen.

I'm not sure this will post/play, as it is Fecesbook:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1550294465423497
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Did anybody else notice the biplane on the ground just barely ahead of where the main wreckage came down? The flames could have easily made three planes involved in that incident.

ETA, I heard of this incident at a very inopportune time. I had just finished some pre-solo maneuvers with my CFI when I heard her gasp and make some exclamations. I thought maybe I had done something wrong making my way back into the pattern (new runway, first time to fly the pattern since opened last week), but she told me about a "bad accident at the airshow". I didn't realize how bad it was.
 
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Dry Creek said:
Did anybody else notice the biplane on the ground just barely ahead of where the main wreckage came down? The flames could have easily made three planes involved in that incident.
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I’m guessing it wasn’t actually as close as the angle of the video makes it look, but yes, it could’ve been even worse for those on the ground.
 
Pinecone said:
Agreed, this was not formation. But no, it was organized.

The patterns are defined to keep planes away from each other. The patterns are briefed to the pilots. And if everyone follows the setup, things go well.

There have been some issues at some shows where not all the pilots attended the briefing, but were allowed to fly.
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Even when not in formation per se, larger/slower aircraft have taken the outside track in shows I've seen as they take wider turns.
 
"I'm thinking that by the time he saw the B-17 it was too late to do anything but to tighten the turn"

The video shows no change in the bank angle as the P-63 approached the B-17. It's constant radius until impact, so I'm still of the opinion he was looking for the other planes he was following in trail, crossed over the centerline and into the path of the B-17, which might have been
a little low compared to the other bombers in that trail. If he saw anything it would be the surprise of the left wingtip of the B17 flashing into the edge of his field of view. Stil tragic for many families this morning who have to make plans.

In that old saw "they died doing what they loved" no one thinks of the families who didn't want them to die and still wanted to share their love. Or that the one who passed away wanted to live to do more of what they loved. Time to retire that phrase, it's shallow and trite.
 
Years ago (I'm guessin' 1970 or 1971), I was traveling in West Central Mississippi, when I spotted an airport not too far off the main highway. I turned around and found the airport, which, as I recall, was just a grass strip with a few shade hangars on it. Beneath one hangar bay was what I thought was a Bell P-39 Airacobra, so, curiosity piqued, I parked the car to check it out. As I approached the hangar, I noticed an older (I was 25 or 26 at the time) gentleman working around the airplane and engaged him in conversation. He was very friendly and full of information about his airplane. First off, he corrected my assumption that I had been looking at a P-39, but was instead in the presence of a P-63 Kingcobra. He told me all about the airplane, and said that he flew it regularly in Confederate Air Force (CAF) events all over the Southeastern United States. Having to get back on the road, I reluctantly had to cut our conversation short. Oh, by the way, as I recall, the P-63 was totally white in color. Could this have been one of the airplanes involved in yesterday's tragedy? Perhaps, but I guess there's really no way to confirm this.
 
RyanShort1 said:
That’s a gross oversimplification.
Tora went fine including the route flown by the Tora defender who was also the P-63 pilot. There is literally no way he wasn’t familiar with the ground lines.
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I didn't say he wasn't familiar with the ground lines, not at all. I said having multiple aircraft pointed at a singular point or line is a bad idea when the possibility exists they could arrive at that point at the same time and altitude. I'm surprised if this is the practice. I would think a line for one group coming from one direction, and another line for the group coming from the other direction would make more sense if they will be coming close. I have no idea how far apart they would need to be, but I would think that some margin for error should be built into the gap.
 
Skymac said:
It was like a AIM-120 locked on target. Unbelievable.
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This is more accurate than you may have intended… as in pulling lead just like a missile.

There is little doubt in my mind he could not have seen the B-17 even if he was looking.

When your nose is on a target, you will drift behind it. You gotta pull lead, which puts it squarely out of view, even if it is huge.

The P-63 cleanly cut the left wing off, then the fuselages seem to merge.

That kind of track can’t happen in a accelerated stall or ANY kind of attempt to maneuver out of the way unless he resigned himself to deliberately losing sight and trying to pull inside.

So the operant question left is could have it been avoided procedurally, or was this just a goof?

If just a goof, how are the Feds gonna make that kind of goof unlikely in the future, which is likely only abstinence.

I don’t think this fly by was part of a “performance”. The qualifications for participation in a demonstration for a airshow like this are minimal, which does allow for reasonable improvement. All in house simple rules.

This is going to likely result in regulation to the point of a part 135 like operation, which they’ve been trying desperately to avoid. Tough to create and maintain with volunteers.
 
Tools said:
If just a goof, how are the Feds gonna make that kind of goof unlikely in the future, which is likely only abstinence.
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Pretty much. There’s a level of risk in air show events that’s just unavoidable. Multiple airplanes maneuvering at low altitudes in a tightly confined ring leaves little room for error between parties.

I really hate the tragedy in this, not to mention the loss of such iconic aircraft. I also feel for the airport management staff who have to deal with the ensuing litigation and aftermath from something like this and I say that as an airport manager. Just sad and heartbreaking on so many levels. :(
 
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