The solution to any typical labor shortage is always the same, reduce government involvement. If there is a shortage of A&P then wages will rise and attract more people to the profession. It's only when the government restricts who may or may not do things that the market gets distorted and isn't allowed to work as it should.
Labor shortages are annoying.
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Doc Holliday
En-Route
So how is “government involvement” creating a shortage of GA A&P’s?
The same way it creates a shortage of everything from medicine to baby food to gasoline to pilots; through barriers to entry.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
So what's the "barrier to entry" for obtaining am A&P certificate? Are you advocating dropping certification requirements?
Tantalum
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San_Diego_Pilot
Captive audience we are
Timbeck2
Final Approach
Just needed to be repeated
schmookeeg
En-Route
That's how I read that too.
I generally don't like "regulations" that create moats -- but given the, ahem, quality of my A&P class (and how many were stumped by basic arithmetic and took 5 tries to get through the General exam) -- I can't join the argument against the A&P "bar"
I do like the Canadian version of self-maintained or whatever for handy types, but it's not a fix for this issue. Amusingly, I bet "in the field" and "behind hangar doors", however, this is happening more and more as shop lead times grow and prices rise.
Dan Thomas
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If he is, does he really want his airplane worked on by someone whose ticket was obtained through a six-week course? I wouldn't, anymore than I'd want a surgeon with a mail-order degree working on me.
It's already easier to get the A&P than it is to get a Canadian or British or Australian AME license. Aircraft Maintenance Engineer. Four years of training and experience, no matter what, though the AME ticket is at least as comprehensive as the A&P-IA. And has the same privileges, though some specialized work the A&P can legally do is restricted here to folks with special training and certification. Welding and NDT, for example.
An AME candidate has to actually know stuff when he goes to write the exams. There are no published booklets with the test questions and answers here.
Barriers? Yup, but they're a response to public demands for safety.
And not to mention its a lot cheaper to get an A&P. When I looked at an EASA Part 66 license 15 years ago it was around $125K USD.
Just as I asked others, what do you think would be an appropriate wage on average for an A&P and should there be a premium paid for those with an IA?
Timbeck2
Final Approach
You sir, have opened up a can of worms as there are a LOT of variables which dictate how much mechanics are paid.
Simple answer first and it is my opinion and worth exactly what you paid for it:
A fair wage for an experienced mechanic should be $100 per hour.*
A fair wage for an IA should be the same if they are serving in the capacity as a line mechanic. I say this because they receive additional fees for annual inspections, any 337's that have to be filled out and signed, etc. and they can name their price just like DPEs.
But as you know, it isn't always that simple. Factors vary as to location, how busy the shop is and clientele among other things. If you factor in overhead for a shop which could or could not be owned by a mechanic, that changes things. How do you factor two mechanics working on the same squawk when one is working and the other is passing tools or just holding things in place? How do you factor a rate where mechanics are working on something and some yahoo walks into the shop and asks if one of them can "just take a quick peek as his airplane because he isn't from around here and will be stranded if it isn't fixed."? How do you factor a rate where the mechanic accidentally breaks a piece of plastic because its 100 years old and has to be repaired or replaced? How do you factor a rate where whatever you were going to do was expected to take X amount but ended up being X x 3 because you had to repair multiple things not related to what the plane was brought in for?
I could go on and on but you know what I mean.
*high end auto mechanics can command that rate but they usually work alone.
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Is that a wage or what is charged as an hourly rate for their labor by an employer? if it’s a wage, you’re saying an experienced A&P should gross $4000/wk ($100/hr * 40hrs) which is $208K/yr?
Just want to make sure I understand correctly.
schmookeeg
En-Route
I'll take a whack since the topic interests me. I think $200K mechanics will break GA as we know it but I like and agree with your premise.
For the scenarios above (and omg there are so many like this), in order:
1. shop rate for each if they're both mechanics. We had noncertified "helpers" for that sorta junk. If it needed 2 mechanics, 2 mechanics bill.
2. Yahoo pays an AOG rate (appx 1.5x shop), work pauses on the first. Calendar time is impacted.
3. Owner notified, shop owner/DOM inspects and decides if it was truly age or negligence and makes the call as to who buys/installs the replacement part
4. "A basic tuesday?"
-- Owner notified once original estimate is exceeded, and is queried for a new "max" hours or offered other stop-work options. ==
I am still convinced that A&Ps should be freelance, and should bid jobs to create a sort of "rack rate" scenario. Imagine:
1. An experienced A&P can bid a $300 job he knows will take him an hour.
2. An inexperienced A&P can bid the same $300 job knowing it will take him 3 hours.
Both paid somewhat commensurate with their abilities.
Yucky/complex/headache jobs are not bid, pushing the price up organically to cover the hassle factor.
Mechanics can specialize in specific yucky jobs nobody wants to do and "name their price" and everyone wins, and the work is better done.
...It requires a certain sized rolodex or staffing level along with a certain sized book of business to pull that sorta thing off, but I think it'd work. Maybe the shop can set an earnings floor so bad weeks aren't punitive.
==
Regardless it's a seller's market out there so the rate is "what can you afford, plane owner?" and we get to be thankful
Timbeck2
Final Approach
I thought it was obvious because I was responding to an experienced mechanic. However, if a skilled mechanic can crank out quality work for 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, and keep a steady supply of airplanes, I'd say he was worth $208k per year. This being of course in a perfect world with no overhead or employer or vacations or sick days or any holidays or any of the other factors I listed above.
Why, what would you think he's worth?
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Let’s start with paying $100/hr in gross wages is likely charging $300/hr to cover overhead. Whether I think somebody is worth that or not is irrelevant unless that guy/gal was doing something for me nobody else could do at a similar quality and lower rate.
I’ve thought a little bit about this and if I were going to be an A&P-IA, I’d use a subscription based management model to set my ‘baseline’ work and only take $700 tire change jobs if I needed some extra scratch.
Timbeck2
Final Approach
I used to think airplane mechanics got paid too much...until I started working on airplanes.
If it was up to me, the shop rate would vary according to what rolled through the door. Mooneys and Comanches would have a much higher shop rate than a Cessna 172 or Piper Cherokee 140.
Edit: I didn't say that to cheese off Mooney or Comanche owners. To rephrase, I would say vary the shop rate to the known difficulty of doing the job or how much sweat and blood I have to spill in order to accomplish said job. People question why avionics is so expensive. Having made a few harnesses and spent many hours laying on my back in a cramped and uncomfortable position with places next to impossible to reach, let alone crimp a wire or put a screw and a nut in said places, I'd say the avionics guys earn every penny.
If it was up to me, the shop rate would vary according to what rolled through the door. Mooneys and Comanches would have a much higher shop rate than a Cessna 172 or Piper Cherokee 140.
Edit: I didn't say that to cheese off Mooney or Comanche owners. To rephrase, I would say vary the shop rate to the known difficulty of doing the job or how much sweat and blood I have to spill in order to accomplish said job. People question why avionics is so expensive. Having made a few harnesses and spent many hours laying on my back in a cramped and uncomfortable position with places next to impossible to reach, let alone crimp a wire or put a screw and a nut in said places, I'd say the avionics guys earn every penny.
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Hang 4
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Hang 4
@schmookeeg had the same question I had. There are two answers (or questions). What should an hour of wrenching on your airplane cost and how much should the wrencher be paid?
Your auto service place charging $150/hr isn't paying their mechanics that rate. They have shop overhead, insurance, benefits ect. I have no problem paying a good mechanic good money, but some of the comparisons are apples and oranges mixing pay with rates.
Timbeck2
Final Approach
But that isn't what I said.
Pinecone
En-Route
Over emphasizing college for everyone. And removing trades type classes in schools.
Exactly. But it was more directed to those who believe that simply paying more money will fix the A&P problem. It never has. The only time money comes into to play is to curb the movement of experienced mechanics from one part of the industry to another, i.e, 135 to the airlines, etc. And the variables can be endless to the point you can't compare one A&P to another or one shop to another even in the same region. There is no one solution to the problem as you can see from the replies in this thread. Aviation has always been driven by personal desire to be around aircraft--not make the most money. The problem is people are not as driven as they were and no amount of money will fix that. Or at least an amount that won't break the bank for most private Part 91 owners.
Doc Holliday
En-Route
Government spews all kinds of worthless BS, but they haven't mandated college to get an A&P.
Timbeck2
Final Approach
And I'll reply with a couple of my own. Is the guy working for a shop with overhead or is he working free lance? Should he be paid less/same amount as if he worked for a shop? As I stated in my first response in this thread, there are a LOT of variables to consider when paying some guy for an hour's wrenching on an airplane.
Timbeck2
Final Approach
Then keep reading the next sentence. Look man, I’m not going to get into some stupid internet debate with you over MY OPINION which I stated in my first post, especially if you’re going to cherry pick things I said and ignore the other things.I’m confused. To gross $100/hrs requires overhead be charged for.
I’m not trying to argue you. Labor charges are income, wages are expenses.
Let’s take the purely independent traveling A&P/IA that doesn’t have a shop. They have consumable supplies, they have insurance, that may or may not maintain inventory, they may have disposal costs for things like tires and/or used oil, then there’s any marketing expenses, run-the-business things like a phone bill, computer, internet, printer. Vehicle and fuel to travel to the client’s location with it’s own attendant expenses.
MIFlyer
Pattern Altitude
and..... what's in common for both medical providers and airplane maintenance providers... drumroll..
artificial scarcity created by very restrictive government licensing requirements.
A talented auto mechanic who learned some basics of how airplanes are different could do 90% of tasks that an airplane would need to stay flying safely. Maybe not stuff like adjusting the balance on control surfaces, but 90% of the rest seems like pretty straightforward stuff. Anyone can work on car, why can't anyone work on a plane? The biggest boon to GA I could see woudl be the "one way trip" that you could take your plane to "owner maintained" similar to Canada's model. I'm NOT trying to put A&Ps out of work, but from what I can see, most have lines out the door and can't keep up, so why not let owners go owner maintained and have the option to hire a shop for specific jobs that require specialized tools and knowledge. The shops would still be there (and busy!) for all the folks who don't want to do any MX, so no one gets put out of work, it just creates more capacity and lowers the misery index.
Same with medicine, we over certificate people who do a lot of really basic stuff and it seems like 90% could be covered by people with above average intelligence and a year of training, supervised or having an "escalation path" to someone with more knowledge.
But, we get more beauracratic, not less over time, so I unfortunately don't see this changing here.
MIFlyer
Pattern Altitude
and...how much goes to the person turning the wrench (the trainee)? If they were paying 50-60 (easy to do if you're billing 140), then I think you could really attract people. but I wonder how many try to pay 1990's wages and wonder why they only have the one helper at $25/hrI feel like a lot of the tolerance for low GA A&P wages was "neato, airplanes" and there seem to be fewer people who feel that way in general lately.
So... wages must fill in that gap.
I paid $145/hr to have my Subaru worked on recently. I am only now seeing similar rates for A&P shops, but the norm still seems to be in the 110-120 range. I think it needs to climb another 40-50 an hour to get the trainee pipeline revved up again and get the tribal knowledge passed on/spread around. I can hear the howling of outrage already
Pinecone
En-Route
HUH???
I am saying the high schools have moved to a model that everyone is going to college and nobody will work in the trades. So no more shop classes and prep for trades. Curriculum is designed for college only.
Hang 4
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Hang 4
Let's model this out. Target 200K income to the A&P. Assume 50 weeks a year, 40 hours week, 80% of hours billable. Assume 30% overhead (no idea if that's too much or too little) - That means a bill rate of $162/hr to put $200k down before taxes. Can play around with any of those numbers. But it's a good chunk higher than most pilots are used to paying.
BTW, I do think rates being too low is part of the problem in getting new people into the field.
BTW, I do think rates being too low is part of the problem in getting new people into the field.
Pinecone
En-Route
Agreed. Maybe a third level. A Basic A&P, like Basic Med. Can do certain things, but other work needs a higher certificate.
But, as I understand it, a number of shops run this way. Hire person with A&P, works under the direction of, doing more and more with less and less oversight, then gets the certificate.
Although most auto mechanics are now certified by something like ASI or the manufacturers training.
Dan Thomas
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I've said this before, many times: An airplane is not a car. There are huge differences in structures, controls, engine duty cycles, ignition and fuel, and many other things. Cars don't have retractable wheels or constant-speed props or prop governors or flight instruments. The exhaust systems in cars aren't glowing red-hot at full throttle, and an exhaust leak in a car isn't usually fatal. Its engine is air-cooled, and the airflow baffling is seriously critical. Airplanes don't have an OBD-II port for the codereader. You actually have to know how to troubleshoot and think, and you'd better know your electrical theory or you'll waste a terrific amount of time and money.
The collection of regulations around aviation are far bigger than around cars and the mechanic has to know a whole lot of them.
This is why the schooling for an A&P is so different. The average car mechanic is dangerous around an airplane because he thinks he already knows most of it. I thought that, too, until I took my AME training (Canada). I found out how much I did not know. And many years later I still have to refer to the manuals frequently. And there are a lot of manuals.
Sure, we here in Canada have the Owner-Maintenance category, but it's restricted to old, obsolete, small designs, and that airplane has to be certified to meet its type design before the OM registration is issued. That means it has to be substantially the same as it was when it left the factory, except for any STCs that have been applied since then. The owner has to keep it that way except for some limited mods he can make in accordance with other certified mods on similar aircraft. In my experience, many of the OM owners end up bringing the airplane to an AME because they start realizing that they don't know nearly enough. They get something messed up so the engine doesn't run right, or they mess up the control rigging and it flies funny, or they get scared that they've done something that weakened the airframe. They don't want to die because of something they didn't know. They don't know how serious corrosion is, and what to do about it.
Here's the study guide for the AME license examinations. We have to get 70% on any exam, knowing the stuff that applies to the category of license we are applying for, and there are four categories. There's also a lot of overlap in those categories. M1 covers aircraft up to 12,566 lb gross weight plus a few old biggies like the DC-3 and some Convairs, as well as helicopter, both piston and turbine. M2 covers the stuff over 12,566 plus turbojets and pressurized aircraft, and heavy helicopters. E covers avionics, and S is sheet metal. The M1 and M2 have to know sheet metal as well, with certain restrictions. Like I said, lots of overlap.
https://tc.canada.ca/sites/default/files/migrated/tp14038e.pdf
It's a long list, and one reason why it takes four years to get the ticket here. Adding ratings takes more education and time.
I've seen airplanes repaired by non-aircraft mechanics. It's scary sometimes.
I don’t know the medical side but on the A&P side it’s a bit more than just a bureaucrat in Washington making up restrictive requirements. The reason behind the current A&P system is to meet the standards of an international agreement the US signed in the 40s and its subsequent member status in ICAO. Its the US version of the same standards followed in the aircraft maintenance engineer systems of Canada, Europe, and others. And if you really want to compare apples, the US A&P system is the least restrictive aviation regulatory system in the world by far.
Now when it comes to Canada’s Owner Maintained category, it is outside of these ICAO standards and receives zero reciprocity from other ICAO member nations just as E/AB and LSA don’t. TC’d aircraft maintained by certified/licensed mechanics are accepted across all member nations, in general. And while I am a fan of Owner Maintained in the US there are “permanent” repercussions if you do take a TC’d aircraft that route. From my understanding, Canada didn’t see the numbers of aircraft converted to owner-maint category that they thought would due to those exact issues. Plus there are other issues that are arising from parts removed off a TCCA Owner Mx cat aircraft. But in reality, how many people would go Owner Maintained in the US? 10% of the Part 91 fleet? 20%? I think more like 5% based just on the numbers of owners who perform their own preventive maintenance tasks now. And most just keep that to tires, plugs, and oil/filter changes. Regardless, A&Ps will never be put out of work any time soon from my viewpoint.
As to the auto mechanic vs aviation mechanic comparisons those are also moot. Its never been about mechanical ability. Either a person has that ability or he doesn’t and unfortunately people with no mechanical ability work on both cars and aircraft alike. The difference is market: 100M+ passenger vehicles on the road vs 200k+ total aircraft in the sky and 600K+ auto mechanics vs 60k+ A&Ps. Now when auto mechanics start needing a federal certificate and to follow federal regulations as part of their daily job then maybe we can readdress this debate.
Timbeck2
Final Approach
Or it could be a sign of the times. Take my daughters and their friends for example. All of them wanted a white collar job that paid 6 figures right out of college. When I was a kid, a lot of people my age went to technical school to learn a trade during their junior and senior year of high school. In fact the biggest pot head ending up owning his own HVAC company and did very well, so much in fact he did better than most of our graduating class. You never hear of that anymore
Flying Keys
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Apples and oranges. In the time since I (and I presume you) graduated HS, rents and mortgages have increased disproportionately greater than what would be considered a modest (non-minimum) starting wage.
We also likely realized that buying our last house first was not a viable strategy.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/mortgages/starter-home-forever-home
Flying Keys
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That’s funny. Everyone I know that went to NYC went for the money and left the city to buy a house when that time came.
Fun fact, my daughter is 28, getting married in about three weeks. They live in Austin, both are teachers and gross about $120K combined before bonuses. They complain about not being able to afford a house. They also have no problem paying $600 each for a concert ticket. They also will *only* consider homes within three specific zip codes and from a certain era. This happens to be the most desirable part of town with the most desirable features. They don’t believe they need a down payment and they don’t accept the concept of PITI or PMI because it’s unfair to teachers.
The first home (the one she grew up in) we bought the house for $113K in 2001, when she was six. We sold it in 2007 for $145K. Those owners upgraded the flooring, kept it maintained, put a new roof on it, and listed it for $168,500. She’s seen the listing and doesn’t comprehend affordable homes are available if you’re willing to compromise. They aren’t willing to compromise on location, yet expect sellers to compromise market pricing or even sell at a loss so they can have what they want.
Flying Keys
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Cool, I can anecdote, too: The first house we purchased has doubled in price in the last 20 years (corrected for inflation). 3br, About 1100sq ft, detached garage, not a great neighborhood (which has gotten worse since we left). Since that time, wages have not doubled, especially when you take inflation into account.
And the article primarily talked about starter homes in Denver, SLC, Portland, Savannah, Raleigh… I didn’t see one mention of prices in NYC.
And the article primarily talked about starter homes in Denver, SLC, Portland, Savannah, Raleigh… I didn’t see one mention of prices in NYC.
Pinecone
En-Route
Hmm, my house, adjusted for inflation costs the same as when I bought it.
My pay, OTOH is about 4 times as much.
Pinecone
En-Route
Auto mechanics are trained to work on what they work on. Aircraft mechanics are trained on what they work on.
A good auto mechanic can be reasonably quickly trained to be an aircraft mechanic and vice versa.
A good auto mechanic can be reasonably quickly trained to be an aircraft mechanic and vice versa.
Flying Keys
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The problem is these are anecdotes and the plural of anecdote does not equal data. The data show that in the last 10 years, home prices, nationally, starters included, have outpaced GMI gains by a nearly 3:1 ratio. Are any of you saying that this is not the case?
It is simply not the same situation as many of us old-timers were in. At all.