ADBS Upgrade

ScottinIowa

ScottinIowa

Pre-takeoff checklist
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ScottinIowa
So I have a Garmin 650 with WAAS. I plan on getting ADSB in with a Stratus. This is a 68 Arrow. Not looking to spend a crap ton to satisfy the mandate. I'd love to get some of y'all thoughts on how to get this done. TIA
 
Already have a GTN? get the GTX-345, I wouldn't have it any other way.


(I don't have pictures of the textual data displayed on the GTN but It's pretty sweet.
 

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bnt83 said:
Already have a GTN? get the GTX-345, I wouldn't have it any other way.


(I don't have pictures of the textual data displayed on the GTN but It's pretty sweet.
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The 345 sounds great, and I love how it eliminates the need for the Stratus for a separate ADSB in device because it wirelessly sends info to a tablet, but at 5-6k installed it's rather pricey
 
$5-7k installed seems to be the price range for a panel mount in/out solution. Garmin, Stratus, Lynx all have good units. 978 UAT out only solutions are maybe a bit less. There is a significant benefit and simplicity to a panel mount in/out solution if you can afford it, however.
 
ScottinIowa said:
The 345 sounds great, and I love how it eliminates the need for the Stratus for a separate ADSB in device because it wirelessly sends info to a tablet, but at 5-6k installed it's rather pricey
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It is pricey, if that isn't an option I'd get the cheapest, simplest option you can buy just to get ADS-B out, that may be a skybeacon.

If your existing transponder is on its last leg then just get a GTX-335 or Stratus* (*if it can use RS232 from the GTN) and be done with it.
 
chemgeek said:
$5-7k installed seems to be the price range for a panel mount in/out solution. Garmin, Stratus, Lynx all have good units. 978 UAT out only solutions are maybe a bit less. There is a significant benefit and simplicity to a panel mount in/out solution if you can afford it, however.
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The Stratus ES is around 3k installed, and if I was doing it right now I'd probably go that route.
 
ScottinIowa said:
The Stratus ES is around 3k installed, and if I was doing it right now I'd probably go that route.
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That seems low. The box without waas integral capability is 2.5k, since you have the gtn doing the position feed. That would be only 5 hours of labor left at 100/hr. No way. Unless you are counting the faa rebate. I think 10-12 hours by a shop is in the ballpark to include the certification check. Certainly the cheapest solution for a transponder box and I would suggest you go the ES route as well. Its what I'm planning on doing myself with a 430w if the skybeacon doesn't get certified in time.
 
hindsight2020 said:
That seems low. The box without waas integral capability is 2.5k, since you have the gtn doing the position feed. That would be only 5 hours of labor left at 100/hr. No way. Unless you are counting the faa rebate. I think 10-12 hours by a shop is in the ballpark to include the certification check. Certainly the cheapest solution for a transponder box and I would suggest you go the ES route as well. Its what I'm planning on doing myself with a 430w if the skybeacon doesn't get certified in time.
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Jesse Saint in the ADSB Jungle thread claims he charges 2800 installed for the ES.
 
I just went through this exercise with my arrow earlier this year. I have a gtn 650 and at the time an old king 76a that was coming up on needing IFR certs. I was on the fence about spending the extra money on the 345 vs the 335. I ended up going with the 345 and it was worth it. I like having weather and traffic on the 650 and the ipad. I sold my stratus so that helped a little. I realize you said you were not trying to spend alot, so if I had to choose a cheaper option, I would go with the 335. You get a new solid state transponder and you are compliant with the adsb mandate. I also like how all the Garmin products integrate together nicely, but that may just be me.
 
$2,800 installed for the Stratus ES and another $200 for the interface kit to hook your stratus receiver to it so it can be remote mounted.
 
Jesse Saint said:
$2,800 installed for the Stratus ES and another $200 for the interface kit to hook your stratus receiver to it so it can be remote mounted.
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If only you were in Iowa or closer.. :(
 
Wait

Don’t be a early adopter
 
Arrow115 said:
I just went through this exercise with my arrow earlier this year. I have a gtn 650 and at the time an old king 76a that was coming up on needing IFR certs. I was on the fence about spending the extra money on the 345 vs the 335. I ended up going with the 345 and it was worth it. I like having weather and traffic on the 650 and the ipad. I sold my stratus so that helped a little. I realize you said you were not trying to spend alot, so if I had to choose a cheaper option, I would go with the 335. You get a new solid state transponder and you are compliant with the adsb mandate. I also like how all the Garmin products integrate together nicely, but that may just be me.
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This, for a couple reasons:

1) You'll be able to display traffic and weather on the 650 as well as the iPad.
2) When you go to sell your airplane, having the 650 but not the 345 will make it look like you "cheaped out" on ADS-B... And if you cheaped out on that, what else did you cheap out on? Even without that perception, I think the 345 will hold more value for you than any other solution.
 
A $4k delta between options is worth the “cheap,out “factor. However, I think that thought it stupid. “Oh...he must be a cheapskate, he bought a dual G5 over a TXi, naw...I’ll pass.” “ oh this plane?, naw.... owner is a penny pincher, there are no speed mods and he only put in Tempest massive, not fine wires. We will have to pass”


I really think that is just dumb to say if you don’t buy a GTx345, your plane value is worthless. I knew Garmin kool aid was delicious, but apparently it also makes you delusional too. Im a GTx345 owner and there are other options that do the same think and are much cheaper. But if money was no factor, I’d do the top shelf Lynx if I had to do it again.
 
You have an approved position source. You can get a Navworx for $700 new in box, eligible for a $500 rebate. Install it yourself with an a&p. Be 2020 compliant for $200, though it is UAT.

Just sayin'.
 
Why would you go with the Lynx if you had to do it all over agin? I do agree with you that there are other options, but the Garmin koolaid is quite good.
 
Is a separate "in" antenna required when the Stratus ES/ESG is paired with the Stratus 2i?
 
Chip Sylverne said:
You have an approved position source. You can get a Navworx for $700 new in box, eligible for a $500 rebate. Install it yourself with an a&p. Be 2020 compliant for $200, though it is UAT.

Just sayin'.
Click to expand...

I thought Navworx was done selling the things, what vendors carry the box new? It is indeed true the final AD allows those units to be mated to certain navigators for position feed, since the original food fight revolved around the FAA not certifying the GPS receiver for the navworx unit.
 
Arrow115 said:
Why would you go with the Lynx if you had to do it all over agin? I do agree with you that there are other options, but the Garmin koolaid is quite good.
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I like the traffic on it’s own screen, free from all the rest of the noise on the 650 or ForeFlight. Clean, crisp, uncluttered.
 
Unit74 said:
I like the traffic on it’s own screen, free from all the rest of the noise on the 650 or ForeFlight. Clean, crisp, uncluttered.
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Exactly. The Lynx also gives you a redundant WAAS source, so it still works if your GPS box crumps. Price installed is comparable to the GTX345. If you have an older GNS430 the Lynx screen is crisper for traffic. Data export via wifi is included in the current package.
 
hindsight2020 said:
I thought Navworx was done selling the things, what vendors carry the box new? It is indeed true the final AD allows those units to be mated to certain navigators for position feed, since the original food fight revolved around the FAA not certifying the GPS receiver for the navworx unit.
Click to expand...

There's an avionics dealer on Beechtalk selling some NOS units for $700 each. No factory support, but for $200 net, it's worth the risk IMHO. Mine still works great.
 
chemgeek said:
Exactly. The Lynx also gives you a redundant WAAS source, so it still works if your GPS box crumps. Price installed is comparable to the GTX345. If you have an older GNS430 the Lynx screen is crisper for traffic. Data export via wifi is included in the current package.
Click to expand...

One could also say that you now have two potential points of failure for GPS... And the additional cost of buying the second one in the first place. Similar to single vs. twin...

The Lynx is an excellent unit, but doesn't make as much sense if your navigator is Garmin, because you can't display the weather from the Lynx on the Garmin, only the traffic. If you have someone else's navigator, sure, but if you've bought into the Garmin ecosystem, there are some advantages to staying with Garmin.

Also, the Lynx really needs to be installed in a visible position for it to have any advantage at all, and that means moving everything else around, which is expensive if you weren't doing that already.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
One could also say that you now have two potential points of failure for GPS... And the additional cost of buying the second one in the first place. Similar to single vs. twin...

The Lynx is an excellent unit, but doesn't make as much sense if your navigator is Garmin, because you can't display the weather from the Lynx on the Garmin, only the traffic. If you have someone else's navigator, sure, but if you've bought into the Garmin ecosystem, there are some advantages to staying with Garmin.

Also, the Lynx really needs to be installed in a visible position for it to have any advantage at all, and that means moving everything else around, which is expensive if you weren't doing that already.
Click to expand...

Failure of the GPS nav will not affect the independent GPS in the Lynx, so you are not increasing your chance of failure of the transponder by having an independent GPS source. Any GPS unit failure cripples only one system, not two.

If you have a GNS430W the Lynx screen is actually higher resolution. It can display weather separately on its screen. In addition, it can export both weather and traffic to your EFB via wifi for an even larger display.

These are some of the factors that led me to choose the Lynx over the GTX345. YMMV.

To take advantage of its screen, you should definitely move the Lynx near the top of the stack. I dropped my entire stack below the audio panel and put the Lynx at the top. Install cost including dropping the stack: $1600. $7000 total.
 
chemgeek said:
. . . If you have a GNS430W the Lynx screen is actually higher resolution. It can display weather separately on its screen. In addition, it can export both weather and traffic to your EFB via wifi for an even larger display.

These are some of the factors that led me to choose the Lynx over the GTX345. YMMV.

To take advantage of its screen, you should definitely move the Lynx near the top of the stack. I dropped my entire stack below the audio panel and put the Lynx at the top. Install cost including dropping the stack: $1600. $7000 total.
Click to expand...
This is why we opted for the Lynx. It was slightly more than a few of the other options but that second screen is very appealing. The typical transponder is a box you put your code into and don’t use it the rest of the flight. With the Screen - you can now display traffic and weather on a seperate screen and free up some of the clutter on the GPS screen.
 
ScottinIowa said:
The 345 sounds great, and I love how it eliminates the need for the Stratus for a separate ADSB in device because it wirelessly sends info to a tablet, but at 5-6k installed it's rather pricey
Click to expand...
Or if your shop is willing, you can do what I did and pick up the 345 at OSH/Sun N Fun at their show price and just pay shop labor for installation. Saved me a few bucks and I was going anyway.
 
It would be cheaper to get the GDL-82 even with the GTN-650 and keep your existing transponder. The 82 will cost lass than 2K and installation is easy. The transponder option would cost well over 3k plus installation.
 
The transponder option could be as little as $2,800 with installation. Also, depending on the existing transponder, there could be some trade in value.
 
SbestCFII said:
It would be cheaper to get the GDL-82 even with the GTN-650 and keep your existing transponder. The 82 will cost lass than 2K and installation is easy. The transponder option would cost well over 3k plus installation.
Click to expand...

The problem with the GDL-82 option when there's already a WAAS GPS navigator in the plane is the need to install another WAAS GPS antenna on the plane.
 
GRG55 said:
The problem with the GDL-82 option when there's already a WAAS GPS navigator in the plane is the need to install another WAAS GPS antenna on the plane.
Click to expand...

It is my understanding that the GDL-82 allows for the WAAS navigator to feed position into it, negating the need for the WAAS antenna. You still have to recoax the legacy line ($$), throw a new power line to the GDL box (more $$), and it needs L-band antenna (more $$) even if your legacy xponder doesn't otherwise. It's a hack job. To be fair, the WAAS navigator feed option is not often talked about because most people who opt for the GDL are doing so because they have an old transponder and no WAAS GPS in the first place.

But the point remains. It truly is penny wise pounds foolish to install a GDL, a cumbersome "splice job" of an installation compared to a standalone transponder install, when you already have the position source organic to the airplane. The cleaner installation is to go with an ADSB out xponder and feed the position from the navigator. The Appareo non-antenna boxes are priced to come in right at 2.5, essentially 3-3.5 Amus installed depending on whether you pursue the rebate. No legacy xponder croak to deal with, as would be case with the GDL job. Granted, by then non-ADSB xponders will be chicken scratch, so perhaps the toss-and-replace wouldn't be such an indignity on the cost front. Lord knows I have no room to cast aspersions on a 'fly to fail' approach to this wretched hobby, considering I resemble the remark :D

--break break--

I'm pretty sure I'm getting rid of the Arrow before the mandate, so I'll see what the hell the replacement airplane will come with. Worst case, I'll be in the same spot I am today, with no mandate but w/ a WAAS position source I can feed a replacement mandate compliant xponder with. That or the damn skybeacon gets shipped and this all goes away. I'm not giving the G-devil any of my hard earned cash for their blood diamonds. :eek:
 
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hindsight2020 said:
I'm pretty sure I'm getting rid of the Arrow before the mandate, so I'll see what the hell the replacement airplane will come with. Worst case, I'll be in the same spot I am today, with no mandate but w/ a WAAS position source I can feed a replacement mandate compliant xponder with. That or the damn skybeacon gets shipped and this all goes away. I'm not giving the G-devil any of my hard earned cash for their blood diamonds. :eek:
Click to expand...

Same situation with the same airplane locally: GDL self-installed under supervision for $1,400 net in one afternoon (plane already had WAAS). Appraiser said the plane will get at least that back in value upon sale. I'm pretty sure the GDL will be the route I will go with at the last minute for my experimental, should nothing cheaper come up (G-devil lawsuits scare me a bit). I have pennies to pinch and pounds to spare (especially after this monster Thanksgiving week).
 
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The GDL, as was mentioned, can receive a position source from a WAAS Navigator instead of using its own GPS antenna.
 
Radar Contact said:
Or if your shop is willing, you can do what I did and pick up the 345 at OSH/Sun N Fun at their show price and just pay shop labor for installation. Saved me a few bucks and I was going anyway.
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How much was the show price?
 
Jesse Saint said:
The transponder option could be as little as $2,800 with installation. Also, depending on the existing transponder, there could be some trade in value.
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Bendix KT76, so I don't think it has a lot of value. I think updating the xponder here is probably the better choice.
 
As an aside -- the thread title is ADBS upgrade? Are you saying ADs are BS?
 
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