Kind of a Sad Commentary About our Young People

[tspear]

It would be hard to argue that. Adjusted for quality of life, though, how do those same "we" fair? Nearly everything is better, improved, or brand new tech that didn't even exist 30 years (or less!) ago. Modernization comes with a price. Nothing is ever going to get less expensive; everything will, however, continue to get cheaper. I don't envy kids these days. Just like our parents didn't envy us, and before that, and before that. In reality life is progressing in an overall positive direction. We haven't moved back to the dark ages. We've surged into the future. It comes at a cost.

Actually no. Quality of life for those behind the baby bombers is in general lower than for the previous generations. First time in recent US history.
You can base this on income adjusted for inflation, net worth adjusted for inflation, life expectancy, stress levels, medical complications due to stress, lack of career prospects....
I have yet to see a metric for quality of life where those younger than baby bombers are better off.

Tim

 

[Lachlan]

Actually no. Quality of life for those behind the baby bombers is in general lower than for the previous generations. First time in recent US history.
You can base this on income adjusted for inflation, net worth adjusted for inflation, life expectancy, stress levels, medical complications due to stress, lack of career prospects....
I have yet to see a metric for quality of life where those younger than baby bombers are better off.

Tim

Hmm, sad to hear. I’m admittedly younger than a Boomer, most definitely not a 1%er, and I feel like my life is pretty darn great in many ways compared to those who came before me. Quality of life is very high, without having to spend a fortune to obtain it. I must be doing it wrong.

 

[weilke]

Actually no. Quality of life for those behind the baby bombers is in general lower than for the previous generations. First time in recent US history.
You can base this on income adjusted for inflation, net worth adjusted for inflation, life expectancy, stress levels, medical complications due to stress, lack of career prospects....
I have yet to see a metric for quality of life where those younger than baby bombers are better off.

Tim

I really have a hard time believing some of those claims. I see kids going off to college who have to decide whether they want to take their new 3-series along or whether they want to leave it home just for the copious time off that comes with college. I see other kids coming back from college with multiple offers of employment. Others test for public sector careers, be it military or fire, right out of high-school and work through the process to start their training. At the same time, the young lady who cleans my house drives a recent model pickup and raises her kids in a nice home on her and her husbands income. Job service North Dakota lists 12700 open jobs and we are recruiting nurses from Chicago and Indiana.

The statistics that show this great misery for the upcoming generation are skewed by significant numbers of new immigrants with limited educational backgrounds and the problems of places like Appalachia and swaths of rural Ohio and Indiana where there is in fact no economic opportunity to speak of. The chances for someone who has his act together, is willing to work hard and move are no worse than they have always been. Sure, you can't expect to come out of high-school, go down to the union hall to get a job at the local steel-plant and expect to feed your a family on that income. But that was an anomaly to start with.

 

[jmp470]

My biggest beef with the younger generation is their parents and the older generations. Today’s lack of self reliance is everywhere, from the dumb *** 401K’s, to everyone needing a degree. We do everything we can in today’s society to pass the buck.

Fix this, fix the problem, IMO.

Younger kids have it to easier than generations before them, however, they are not allowed to make mistakes and live in a granny state. They need to be able to make mistakes and learn, not be labeled and cast aside like today. We are the most judgmental society going. To much news, and everyone thinking their opinion matters on how a parent raises their kid.

Also, our families are the most fragmented they have ever been, so today’s youth miss out on that.

 

[tspear]

I really have a hard time believing some of those claims. I see kids going off to college who have to decide whether they want to take their new 3-series along or whether they want to leave it home just for the copious time off that comes with college. I see other kids coming back from college with multiple offers of employment. Others test for public sector careers, be it military or fire, right out of high-school and work through the process to start their training. At the same time, the young lady who cleans my house drives a recent model pickup and raises her kids in a nice home on her and her husbands income. Job service North Dakota lists 12700 open jobs and we are recruiting nurses from Chicago and Indiana.

The statistics that show this great misery for the upcoming generation are skewed by significant numbers of new immigrants with limited educational backgrounds and the problems of places like Appalachia and swaths of rural Ohio and Indiana where there is in fact no economic opportunity to speak of. The chances for someone who has his act together, is willing to work hard and move are no worse than they have always been. Sure, you can't expect to come out of high-school, go down to the union hall to get a job at the local steel-plant and expect to feed your a family on that income. But that was an anomaly to start with.

Last info I have seen show the immigrants on average do better.
And your point about Appalachia is just the tip of the ice berg. I believe it was in the 70s when the tide started to turn (going on memory), this was when the USA truly switched from being an export driven economy to an import based economy driven by consumer purchases. While this economic transformation was starting, automation was coming in and dramatically increasing product quality and decreasing required labor; especially unskilled labor.
We now face the result, massive debt largely borrowed from the future generations, a split economy of the have and have nots, an unchanged education system which is still based on roughly 80% of society going to unskilled labor; not exactly a recipe for success.

In terms of not believing the numbers, do some online searching, it gets rather depressing. I rather live in the bubble where my kids and their friends are doing pretty well.

Tim

 

[JGoodish]

As someone with two school-aged kids, I can tell you that the K12 education system in this country is trash, including most of the “great” public schools in the fancy neighborhoods. The private schools might be better, but even the best ones aren’t much better. Parents used to send their kids to school to learn the basic academic skills, but schools have taken their eyes way off the eight ball for that goal.

College degrees are “assumed” because of the asinine push that everyone, even the female who will get married, have kids, and quit her job, must go to college. There’s even a grad school push in some circles. The flip side is that many folks come out of grad school with less useful education than that possessed by a high school senior of a few decades ago. And none of that even considers the large and increasing number of completely useless degree programs being offered.

My wife commented the other day about a rather noticeable increase in the number of young kids working retail jobs who have no problem mouthing off to customers—some of whom are old enough to be their parents or grandparents. Indeed, I have noticed the same, both personally and in online reviews for many retail establishments. Such a trend of flaunting disrespect for others seems unlikely to be a positive for society.

Young people will form their behavior based on what is expected of them, and the same is true of K12 schools. Parents have set the bar for expectations, decency, and proper priorities way, way low, and it is getting lower, unless of course you’re talking about youth sports.

 

[slacktide]

As for military names, I had a Staff Sergeant General Ford. Yep. Ma and pa named him General. Once knew a Major with the last name Sargent.

Major Major Major Major.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_Major_Major_Major

 

[weilke]

Last info I have seen show the immigrants on average do better.

'Better' when compared with native population that starts out with the same economic starting conditions (iow at 0). But that's just a function of many immigrants working a lot harder and being willing to take on several jobs to get ahead.
When looking at metrics like average and median per capita incomes, recent immigrants have considerably lower incomes and possess less assets than the native population as a whole. So if you have a substantial group that keeps entering the the population at a young age and at the bottom of the ladder, your statistics will claim that 'young people' have it harder to get ahead.

And your point about Appalachia is just the tip of the ice berg. I believe it was in the 70s when the tide started to turn (going on memory), this was when the USA truly switched from being an export driven economy to an import based economy driven by consumer purchases. While this economic transformation was starting, automation was coming in and dramatically increasing product quality and decreasing required labor; especially unskilled labor.

The frictional unemployment rate is somewhere around 2-2.5%. That's the rate you will never get below because it represents the people who change jobs and those intentionally dodging work because its easier to collect a check between jobs. According to BLS, the current general unemployment rate is 3.9% and labor force participation rate today is higher than it was in the 60s and 70s. The claim that this is a landscape of economic devastation is simply not borne out by the numbers.

We now face the result, massive debt largely borrowed from the future generations, a split economy of the have and have nots, an unchanged education system which is still based on roughly 80% of society going to unskilled labor; not exactly a recipe for success.

WHAT ? Our education system is NOT geared towards anyone going into unskilled labor. If anything it is geared towards everyone going to college and lacks options for those who would be better served with some life-skills training (e.g. on how to create a budget for your personal life).

 

[Omalley1537]

Hat tip to you then. I can’t do it. I end up looking at all the people trying to figure out why they’re buying $8 coffee drinks. LOL.

Don’t get me started on the gal in line in front of my wife who proclaimed how wonderful it was that she was able to buy said 8.00 drink with her government food card...

 

[weilke]

Hat tip to you then. I can’t do it. I end up looking at all the people trying to figure out why they’re buying $8 coffee drinks. LOL.

Those are the same people complaining about their student loans being higher than those of a fictional statistical character from the 1970s.

Oh the great student debt crisis. The average after a bachelors degree these days is $28,000. Out of all borrowers, 13% or so owe more than 50k and 3% owe more than 100k (most of them prob from professional schools like law and medical). Now 28k is by no means trivial, but even assuming that one doesn't consolidate and pays the 4.45% rate, that makes a payment of $290/month. The average for a grad coming out with a bachelor currently is 50k for starting salary. Paying off $290/month for your student loans out of a 50k salary is only a problem if you have a $150 data plan for your $1000 I-crap and order up the $250/month 'give me everything' plan from the cable company.

 

[ChrisK]

Personally, I've never known, nor known of, a kid taking meds for ADHD in which case it didn't start with their school "suggesting" it, or in many cases, even providing a contract shrink to write the script. I also know of at least two occasions when the school threatened the parents with being reported to Social Services for neglect if they didn't comply.

Most parents want their kids to be perfect. I doubt too many want to put them on speed just for ****s and giggles. Most times, I strongly suspect, the school makes the initial suggestion.

Rich

You know a lot of families with kids on meds?

 

[PPC1052]

By "fail," he meant that applicants scored so low that they didn't qualify for enlistment at all. Apparently there is such a score. They just don't call it "failing."

Rich

 

[Rushie]

It would be hard to argue that. Adjusted for quality of life, though, how do those same "we" fair? Nearly everything is better, improved, or brand new tech that didn't even exist 30 years (or less!) ago. Modernization comes with a price. Nothing is ever going to get less expensive; everything will, however, continue to get cheaper. I don't envy kids these days. Just like our parents didn't envy us, and before that, and before that. In reality life is progressing in an overall positive direction. We haven't moved back to the dark ages. We've surged into the future. It comes at a cost.

Help me understand the bolded part, because I do not see this at all. Yes, for tech that didn't exist 30 years ago like smart phones. Amazing, and having a phone that verbally directs me around so I don't have to stop and look at a paper map is amazing.

But not everything is better, by a long shot, and many things are far worse. The ordinary washing machine for example. The zenith of good design was reached before energy efficiency became a priority over actually cleaning your clothes. I don't consider low flow toilets or low flow shower heads an improvement at all. These things are only progressing in a positive direction if your yardstick is "greenness" and nothing else.

Aluminum foil is too thin now. You have to buy "heavy duty" to get the thickness it used to be. You can't get a rubber spatula made of real rubber anymore. No, the heat resistant silicone ones are not an improvement. They don't have the same flexibility. They're fine for stirring eggs in a hot skillet but no good for scraping cake batter. I could go on and on with household items.

I don't consider a tiny egg shaped car that my head bumps against the top an improvement over my huge fuel drinking boxy car, and I don't consider a "smart" car with all its nanny control features an improvement at all.

Cabinets made of particle board instead of solid wood. Quality and craftsmanship in many things has vanished, and we dispose and replace items instead of buying something to last. I don't see that as a positive.

I do agree many things are better and many very important things such as medical advances and given a choice I would rather live in today's world than back when we didn't have technology. But I cannot agree that nearly everything is better. Unless I am misunderstanding your statement?

 

[Chip Sylverne]

The incidence of opioid related deaths, from 9,000 annually 15 years ago to 42,000 currently, particularly among young men, I think is a flashing red light telling us that though we may think life is better, there's a lot of young people out there who don't.

 

[Gerhardt]

It's not one-size-fits-all. Some things are better, some are much worse.

1. Kids have always been disrespectful and unappreciative. But it's worse now than ever before. Mine are no exception.

2. Our governments at every level used to be just lazy bureaucracies. Now they seem to be dangerous, oppressive bureaucracies.

3. Privacy is a thing of the past.

4. 30 years ago a trip to the doctor or hospital was a minor inconvenience to your budget. Now, the quality of healthcare is unprecedented, if you have the right coverage. But the cost of healthcare for the average person is prohibitive.

5. It seems like it's easier to get a job now than it was when I was younger.

6. Consumer conveniences are incredible. Smart phones, Keurigs, computers, massive TVs....and the features the average new car has is mind-blowing.

7. I don't recall having ever seen road rage until 20 years ago. Now it seems like it happens 100x/day just in my town.

8. I'm undecided on which side of the line internet forums fall. Many tend to fall in the general area of road rage, but others are incredibly helpful, and some (like PoA) are an oasis.

 

[Ted]

I think that's because most people don't understand the difference between correlation and causation.

Well...

The funny part is that college is a block checker for the most part. Most jobs don’t actually require a college education to do the job. Companies and the federal government put that requirement in there to weed out candidates.

TCABM hit the nail on the head with this. Reality is I haven't used a single thing I learned in engineering school in my career. Not one. In fact, being a mechanic was far, far more useful to my career and I've given many aspiring mechanical engineering students the recommendation that they spend some time as an apprentice mechanic.

That said, I don't begrudge the requirement for a college degree in my case. I do think that for many (if not most) career paths, there's no reason.

 

[Velocity173]

Well...



TCABM hit the nail on the head with this. Reality is I haven't used a single thing I learned in engineering school in my career. Not one. In fact, being a mechanic was far, far more useful to my career and I've given many aspiring mechanical engineering students the recommendation that they spend some time as an apprentice mechanic.

That said, I don't begrudge the requirement for a college degree in my case. I do think that for many (if not most) career paths, there's no reason.

ATC for one. Majority of my friends are former military controllers and almost all of them, don’t have a degree. One is a senior sup in Atlanta TRACON and another is at the ATC System Command Center.

 

[Ted]

ATC for one. Majority of my friends are former military controllers and almost all of them, don’t have a degree. One is a senior sup in Atlanta TRACON and another is at the ATC System Command Center.

There's also no reason I can think of why a college degree should be required for ATC. Or for a pilot at all.

 

[tspear]

'Better' when compared with native population that starts out with the same economic starting conditions (iow at 0). But that's just a function of many immigrants working a lot harder and being willing to take on several jobs to get ahead.
When looking at metrics like average and median per capita incomes, recent immigrants have considerably lower incomes and possess less assets than the native population as a whole. So if you have a substantial group that keeps entering the the population at a young age and at the bottom of the ladder, your statistics will claim that 'young people' have it harder to get ahead.

I have never looked closely at the numbers enough to make either side of the argument for why. I just have seen enough numbers that show that most generations start near zero in terms of net worth when finishing school. And each generation behind baby bombers have/will accumulate less by mid-life than previous generations.
Related to your premise on education, look at point 7: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...s-on-u-s-immigration-past-present-and-future/
And then percentage of population: https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/immigrant-population-over-time

'
The frictional unemployment rate is somewhere around 2-2.5%. That's the rate you will never get below because it represents the people who change jobs and those intentionally dodging work because its easier to collect a check between jobs. According to BLS, the current general unemployment rate is 3.9% and labor force participation rate today is higher than it was in the 60s and 70s. The claim that this is a landscape of economic devastation is simply not borne out by the numbers.

Actual the claim of economic devastation is based on the lack of jobs which produce an income that is "middle class". A large number of the jobs in the USA are now service sector jobs paying minimum wage or barely above it. Compare the person making 7.25/hr working in a call center to the miner making $20, or the waiter making $2.50 plus tips to the factory worker making $32.
It is not a lack of jobs, it is a lack of well paying jobs. What many people do not realize is those well paying jobs were largely in support of export industries.

'
WHAT ? Our education system is NOT geared towards anyone going into unskilled labor. If anything it is geared towards everyone going to college and lacks options for those who would be better served with some life-skills training (e.g. on how to create a budget for your personal life).

Why is school effectively only seven/eight months of the year?
Why do we have three months of summer vacation? For the harvest right? How many kids in this country work the fields?
There is gobs of research that children, especially through teenage years are biologically on a different sleep cycle than adults. So why do we still have high schools starting before noon? Oh, so kids can play sports after school or deliver pizza in the evening... How does this help them prepare academically? Sure sports teach teamwork (if you participate, which is a minority), but this does little to develop the mind it develops physical skill and some social skills.
Why do almost every college and university require placement tests? Because high schools and earlier have not prepared the kids for college. So you need to determine how many remedial classes they need to take; which often makes college more expensive.
We are pushing more and more kids to go to college, but we have not changed the education system to actually prepare them for rising requirements of college, at the same time we have largely abandoned technical schools to teach practical skilled labor in skilled manual trades.
in terms of life skills, those used to be taught at home. Why are we pushing more on the schools, without giving more time and resources to accomplish the additional learning?

Tim

 

[midwestpa24]

I see kids going off to college who have to decide whether they want to take their new 3-series along or whether they want to leave it home just for the copious time off that comes with college.At the same time, the young lady who cleans my house drives a recent model pickup and raises her kids in a nice home on her and her husbands income.

Don't mistake a nice car or house with prosperity. Younger generations are more in debt now than ever before. Some will never get out of debt. The banks own them and their precious possessions.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I have never looked closely at the numbers enough to make either side of the argument for why. I just have seen enough numbers that show that most generations start near zero in terms of net worth when finishing school. And each generation behind baby bombers have/will accumulate less by mid-life than previous generations.
Related to your premise on education, look at point 7: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...s-on-u-s-immigration-past-present-and-future/
And then percentage of population: https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/immigrant-population-over-time



Actual the claim of economic devastation is based on the lack of jobs which produce an income that is "middle class". A large number of the jobs in the USA are now service sector jobs paying minimum wage or barely above it. Compare the person making 7.25/hr working in a call center to the miner making $20, or the waiter making $2.50 plus tips to the factory worker making $32.
It is not a lack of jobs, it is a lack of well paying jobs. What many people do not realize is those well paying jobs were largely in support of export industries.



Why is school effectively only seven/eight months of the year?
Why do we have three months of summer vacation? For the harvest right? How many kids in this country work the fields?
There is gobs of research that children, especially through teenage years are biologically on a different sleep cycle than adults. So why do we still have high schools starting before noon? Oh, so kids can play sports after school or deliver pizza in the evening... How does this help them prepare academically? Sure sports teach teamwork (if you participate, which is a minority), but this does little to develop the mind it develops physical skill and some social skills.
Why do almost every college and university require placement tests? Because high schools and earlier have not prepared the kids for college. So you need to determine how many remedial classes they need to take; which often makes college more expensive.
We are pushing more and more kids to go to college, but we have not changed the education system to actually prepare them for rising requirements of college, at the same time we have largely abandoned technical schools to teach practical skilled labor in skilled manual trades.
in terms of life skills, those used to be taught at home. Why are we pushing more on the schools, without giving more time and resources to accomplish the additional learning?

Tim

I don't know whether it's us pushing kids into college or them deciding it's necessary...either way, my brother makes a pretty decent living doing equipment maintenance because "dirty jobs" seem to be shunned by the younger folks.

 

[Lachlan]

Help me understand the bolded part, because I do not see this at all. Yes, for tech that didn't exist 30 years ago like smart phones. Amazing, and having a phone that verbally directs me around so I don't have to stop and look at a paper map is amazing.

But not everything is better, by a long shot, and many things are far worse. The ordinary washing machine for example. The zenith of good design was reached before energy efficiency became a priority over actually cleaning your clothes. I don't consider low flow toilets or low flow shower heads an improvement at all. These things are only progressing in a positive direction if your yardstick is "greenness" and nothing else.

Aluminum foil is too thin now. You have to buy "heavy duty" to get the thickness it used to be. You can't get a rubber spatula made of real rubber anymore. No, the heat resistant silicone ones are not an improvement. They don't have the same flexibility. They're fine for stirring eggs in a hot skillet but no good for scraping cake batter. I could go on and on with household items.

I don't consider a tiny egg shaped car that my head bumps against the top an improvement over my huge fuel drinking boxy car, and I don't consider a "smart" car with all its nanny control features an improvement at all.

Cabinets made of particle board instead of solid wood. Quality and craftsmanship in many things has vanished, and we dispose and replace items instead of buying something to last. I don't see that as a positive.

I do agree many things are better and many very important things such as medical advances and given a choice I would rather live in today's world than back when we didn't have technology. But I cannot agree that nearly everything is better. Unless I am misunderstanding your statement?

Help me understand the bolded part, because I do not see this at all. Yes, for tech that didn't exist 30 years ago like smart phones. Amazing, and having a phone that verbally directs me around so I don't have to stop and look at a paper map is amazing.

But not everything is better, by a long shot, and many things are far worse. The ordinary washing machine for example. The zenith of good design was reached before energy efficiency became a priority over actually cleaning your clothes. I don't consider low flow toilets or low flow shower heads an improvement at all. These things are only progressing in a positive direction if your yardstick is "greenness" and nothing else.

Aluminum foil is too thin now. You have to buy "heavy duty" to get the thickness it used to be. You can't get a rubber spatula made of real rubber anymore. No, the heat resistant silicone ones are not an improvement. They don't have the same flexibility. They're fine for stirring eggs in a hot skillet but no good for scraping cake batter. I could go on and on with household items.

I don't consider a tiny egg shaped car that my head bumps against the top an improvement over my huge fuel drinking boxy car, and I don't consider a "smart" car with all its nanny control features an improvement at all.

Cabinets made of particle board instead of solid wood. Quality and craftsmanship in many things has vanished, and we dispose and replace items instead of buying something to last. I don't see that as a positive.

I do agree many things are better and many very important things such as medical advances and given a choice I would rather live in today's world than back when we didn't have technology. But I cannot agree that nearly everything is better. Unless I am misunderstanding your statement?

Very good points. It’s not that everything is actually improved, rather, that’s how it’s all marketed. I promise you that kitchen cabinets are still made out of real wood if you spend a little more money. We’re remodeling our kitchen and the cabinets we are putting in are all solid wood.

On the other hand, medical care is overall better in many areas, even though many will outright refuse to believe it. Putting a burgeoning population which puts the squeeze on limited providers aside, the vast improvement in diagnostic medicine and specialty care has skyrocketed. Certain types of heme/onc diseases that were death sentences a few years ago are able to be beaten back and give people normal life expectancies. Living liver donors, stem cell donors, new procedures, etc. We are getting better at a lot of things in healthcare. Funding it is not one of them, sadly.

 

[SoonerAviator]

As someone with two school-aged kids, I can tell you that the K12 education system in this country is trash, including most of the “great” public schools in the fancy neighborhoods. The private schools might be better, but even the best ones aren’t much better. Parents used to send their kids to school to learn the basic academic skills, but schools have taken their eyes way off the eight ball for that goal . . .

I call shenanigans on this. The K12 education system has changed over time, but they still teach most of the same material as they did in the 60's. Mathematics includes the natural progression from basic arithmetic, to geometry and algebra. Few kids were learning trig in 1960. Hell, I took AP Statistics in high school (although it was entirely elective) and allowed me to CLEP out of Stat in college. English courses are largely the same, kids still learn spelling, penmanship, sentence structure, and grammar in the same grades they always have. Science involves basic introductory stuff in elementary school, with lab sciences like chemistry, biology, physics, etc. coming along later for middle school/high school. Most of the "Home Ec" and "Shop" classes have gone by the wayside, sure, but they are replaced with mandatory foreign languages as well as tech classes for computer literacy.

My point is that the kids are being taught the same material concepts for core classes they were teaching long ago. They just use TI-92 calculators instead of a slide rule or a chart of standard deviations for a t-test. The methods of teaching that material have changed, and that can be argued that it's better or worse, but the material hasn't changed that I can see. As I mentioned earlier, the problem isn't likely on the schools, the problem is because the number of children in class has grown, and those children have more behavioral problems that they used to. So the teachers end up having to play baby-sitter and disciplinarian instead of focusing on education. Nothing you do with curriculum is going to fix that, it's up to parents not to raise little a**holes.

 

[wsuffa]

@wsuffa

Great summary. I agree with every point, except one. Public funding of colleges, like all government funded services eventually runs into budget problems.
At that point, issues are often addressed. This can be seen in many places in Europe, as the costs of universities rose in 80s, they started creating and pushing more tech schools. That is just one example....

I have always believed regardless if you are discussing public funded solutions, or free markets you need a forcing function to make things work.

Tim

In my experience, more often than not the solution implemented is suboptimal and reeks of politics.

There is no long-term strategy. Issues can be addressed, but rarely do they achieve anything other than a politically-expedient solution. There is simply too much money in education. And health care. And things like USPS. The VA is a great example where reform is required (and has been for some time) - there is a forcing function. Yet it's not fixed, not even close.

My concern with the forcing function you suggest is that the government will simply raise taxes or cut services rather than doing the right thing. I hope I am wrong, but I've seen too much over the years.

Note tha the proposed solution for ATC has been "privatize".

As someone with two school-aged kids, I can tell you that the K12 education system in this country is trash, including most of the “great” public schools in the fancy neighborhoods. The private schools might be better, but even the best ones aren’t much better. Parents used to send their kids to school to learn the basic academic skills, but schools have taken their eyes way off the eight ball for that goal.

.

in part because many parents have abdicated their responsibility to teach their kids basic things, and they've demanded that the schools take on the role they should take. And once that happens there are folks within the schools and government that believe they know better than the parents who do take that responsibility seriously and the parents get in trouble. A perfect example is the couple that let their children walk to the park/store/wherever and were investigated for child abuse and abandonment.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

I am one that believes in higher education, even, or maybe especially (gasp!) a liberal arts track. Exposure to new ideas, cultures, broadens the mind and enhances appreciation of the beautiful things in life. Reading and writing about literature, history, art, architecture, philosophy etc. teaches critical thinking skills, and develops communication skills, and by writing you learn what you think and how you reached those conclusions. There's more to life then a job after a STEM degree. Whatever your degree may be, having it shows you know how to learn, and even if you dig ditches, you'll be a better ditch digger for it.

To borrow a phrase from W. Edwards Deming, you may learn all there is about ice, and still not know a damn thing about water.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Browsing through this long thread, I come to the conclusion that the topic should be changed to "Kind of a Sad Commentary About our Supposedly Mature People."

 

[tspear]

My concern with the forcing function you suggest is that the government will simply raise taxes or cut services rather than doing the right thing. I hope I am wrong, but I've seen too much over the years.

The problem is "doing the right thing" is often determined by your political perspective. This often gets complicated by two fundamental constrains:
1. What is often in the best interests on society may not be in the best interests in the individual.
2. Often we are now determined to be ideologically pure in our ideas and must attempt to "do the right thing" based on those ideas; when often human nature prevents the "ideal" theory from working.

Tim

 

[wsuffa]

The problem is "doing the right thing" is often determined by your political perspective. This often gets complicated by two fundamental constrains:
1. What is often in the best interests on society may not be in the best interests in the individual.
2. Often we are now determined to be ideologically pure in our ideas and must attempt to "do the right thing" based on those ideas; when often human nature prevents the "ideal" theory from working.

Tim

No disagreement, but given those constraints there will never be a "best interests" solution. The political/bureaucratic process can never keep up with technology.

The point is that there is no simple solution. Simply cutting expense or raising taxes isn't sufficient.

And I posit that ideology (regardless of what it is) is a bad thing, and is not in the best interest of society.

With that, I'm backing out. This part of the thread is dangling precariously close to Spin Zone territory, and that is verboten.

 

[tspear]

@wsuffa

Agreed. We should meet up for a drink and discuss over beer, watching some planes. Much more fun that way.

Tim

 

[RJM62]

You know a lot of families with kids on meds?

More in my own extended family than in other families.

Rich

 

[ChrisK]

More in my own extended family than in other families.

Rich

Was truly curious. A lot of these kinds of opinions seem to be biased by expectation or anecdotal.

 

[RJM62]

Was truly curious. A lot of these kinds of opinions seem to be biased by expectation or anecdotal.

I have a lot of experience with schools and ADD / ADHD referrals by utterly unqualified school counselors. I don't feel like getting myself angry on a Friday afternoon, so I'll just say that my experiences have led to my forming an opinion of school counselors that includes references to bovine excrement.

Rich

 

[TCABM]

Was truly curious. A lot of these kinds of opinions seem to be biased by expectation or anecdotal.

According to CDC, as many as 1 in 10 kids may have been diagnosed with ADHD or similar disorder.

https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/data.html

 

[Rushie]

Very good points. It’s not that everything is actually improved, rather, that’s how it’s all marketed. I promise you that kitchen cabinets are still made out of real wood if you spend a little more money. We’re remodeling our kitchen and the cabinets we are putting in are all solid wood.

On the other hand, medical care is overall better in many areas, even though many will outright refuse to believe it. Putting a burgeoning population which puts the squeeze on limited providers aside, the vast improvement in diagnostic medicine and specialty care has skyrocketed. Certain types of heme/onc diseases that were death sentences a few years ago are able to be beaten back and give people normal life expectancies. Living liver donors, stem cell donors, new procedures, etc. We are getting better at a lot of things in healthcare. Funding it is not one of them, sadly.

Glad to hear you can still get solid wood cabinets!

I agree about medical care. You mention heme/onc diseases; our daughter was cured of Hodgkin's Lymphoma. This is year 8, at least I hope she's still cured. I'm well aware of progress in the medical field. On the other hand there is also a lot of regression in the medical field too such as the unnecessary Cesarean rate. And for that matter the unreal rate of giving pills to kids and I'm not talking about the opioid epidemic, I'm talking about ADHD and statins! Instead of fixing the problem at the source, our horrible, horrible food supply. Another area with mixed results. Great progress in convenience, terrible progress for health. Entire aisles at the grocery store dedicated to HFCS soda!

 

[ktup-flyer]

According to CDC, as many as 1 in 10 kids may have been diagnosed with ADHD or similar disorder.

https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/data.html

They did a trial run on me when I was in 4th-5th grade, because teachers said I wasn't paying attention, and it literally turned me into a different person. Reality was I swam laps 5 days a week, competed in swim meets on Saturdays, and raced motocross on Sundays and couldn't turn it off when I had to sit in a class room. Thankfully, it didn't take long for my parents to realize drugs weren't the answer, and I don't have to jump through all the FAA medical hoops.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Glad to hear you can still get solid wood cabinets!

I agree about medical care. You mention heme/onc diseases; our daughter was cured of Hodgkin's Lymphoma. This is year 8, at least I hope she's still cured. I'm well aware of progress in the medical field. On the other hand there is also a lot of regression in the medical field too such as the unnecessary Cesarean rate. And for that matter the unreal rate of giving pills to kids and I'm not talking about the opioid epidemic, I'm talking about ADHD and statins! Instead of fixing the problem at the source, our horrible, horrible food supply. Another area with mixed results. Great progress in convenience, terrible progress for health. Entire aisles at the grocery store dedicated to HFCS soda!

We’re better at fixing the health problems we’re creating, and prevention is discouraged.

 

[wsuffa]

@wsuffa

Agreed. We should meet up for a drink and discuss over beer, watching some planes. Much more fun that way.

Tim

Agree.

 

[denverpilot]

To borrow a phrase from W. Edwards Deming, you may learn all there is about ice, and still not know a damn thing about water.

Deming... that brings back some memories... of an entire company wasting their time messing with his consulting firm’s garbage about “quality” in the 80s.

Time that they could have had all of those people actually working on the product quality.

TQM = Spend 25% of your time pretending to do “quality initiatives” instead of working. LOL LOL LOL.

 

[wsuffa]

Deming... that brings back some memories... of an entire company wasting their time messing with his consulting firm’s garbage about “quality” in the 80s.

Time that they could have had all of those people actually working on the product quality.

TQM = Spend 25% of your time pretending to do “quality initiatives” instead of working. LOL LOL LOL.

Well, he was trained as an engineer and scientist. Including an MS from the University of Colorado.

At the same time, his emphasis on statistical process control and the impact on quality was badly, badly needed in the US in the 70's and 80's as Japan, Inc. was eating our lunch using techniques he introduced to them.

 

[denverpilot]

Well, he was trained as an engineer and scientist. Including an MS from the University of Colorado.

At the same time, his emphasis on statistical process control and the impact on quality was badly, badly needed in the US in the 70's and 80's as Japan, Inc. was eating our lunch using techniques he introduced to them.

Yeah. His ideas were for manufacturing after studying the Japanese. They didn’t work too well inside an oil company. LOL.

Not to mention here we are decades later and who thinks we’ve surpassed Japanese auto makers in total quality? Nope... still not there. Hahahahaha.

Anyway back to the topic of young folks...

Which one will be the next Deming and annoy millions of people through misuse of their ideas?