Holding Entry

Terry

Terry

Line Up and Wait
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Display name:
Terry
Hi All:

I have been out of touch for about 6 months but now I am back.

I was taught that you could enter the hold by looking at the holding fix. If you flew to the holding fix and then entered into the center of the holding pattern a teardrop entry was necessary. If you were outside the holding pattern then you could make a direct or parallel.

Can someone straighten me out on this? I may have it backwards but I was trying to remember from memory.

Thanks;

Terry
 
What you wrote makes it sound simple- 3 choices
1) flying to the fix on from the hold side--> direct entry
2) flying to the fix opposite the hold side and flying into the hold area after the fix--> teardrop
3) flyling to the fix opposite the hold side & flying out of the hold area after fix passage--> parallel entry

This makes it clearer to me...
 
or.... in our little/slow planes. Hit the fix, stay on the holding side, and enter any way you like.

Jack, the way you put it, however, is the BEST way I've ever heard it described - it really made the light bulb go on. I'll pass it on to the folks I mentor in the future.
 
Thanks!

I always appreciate the straight forward and nice answers I receive here.

Terry
PPL, IR
:yes:
 
TMetzinger said:
or.... in our little/slow planes. Hit the fix, stay on the holding side, and enter any way you like.

Jack, the way you put it, however, is the BEST way I've ever heard it described - it really made the light bulb go on. I'll pass it on to the folks I mentor in the future.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the kind words and also ignoring my poor typing. I was just expanding on Terry's thoughts.
 
TMetzinger said:
or.... in our little/slow planes. Hit the fix, stay on the holding side, and enter any way you like.
Click to expand...

For some reason, I never had as much trouble figuring out which entry to use as I did figuring out which way to turn when I got to the fix even though I knew which entry method I was using.

And FWIW, while I also subscribe to the "hit the fix and turn into the holding side" entry method, the one place that may not work is on a HILPT because it might not allow you to get established on a good heading before crossing the fix inbound.
 
If you have trouble figuring out which way to turn for the entry, and if you don't do this already, what I'm about to say, determine an appropriate heading for the entry, regardless of your chosen entry method [direct, parallel, teardrop] before reaching the fix. It should be simple, then, to look at your DG and figure which way to turn to get to that heading. I have had students who really needed to do this, and this method lowered their confusion level and, therefore, stress. [For example, if someone is having trouble with this, they are not, in essence, staying ahead of the aircraft, so I'll say, well before we reach the fix, "what are we gonna do when we reach the fix," and I want them to determine the entry and a heading to turn to over the fix to facilitate the entry. Not everyone needs to do this. However, if one needs to, and figures it out early, now we're back ahead of the process, where I want to be in the clouds.]
 
Simplest Yet:

Drop 1/3 of the possible patterns (parallel), decrease your mental workload by 75%!

Cross the fix and either enter direct, or turn 45 degrees from the outbound to make a teardrop.

Direct or Teardrop. Why the FAA has to add that 3rd one, confounding millions of students for decades is beyond me.

You can even do it in a fast mover, thus it should be easy in our light singles.

(Thanks Mr. White, DE, Austin, Tx.)
 
I was taught there were 2 possible courses upon passing the fix. You could either be on the outbound course (Direct, Parallel) or the teardrop course. If your current course is within 30 degrees of the teardrop entry course, fly the teardrop. Otherwise turn to the outbound heading. If you turn to fly the outbound heading make the next turn in the same direction as the turn you made to the outbound course This will take care of both the Parallel and the Direct entry, and removes a whole ton of worries when flying the hold.

Works pretty well

Pete
 
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1. Draw the fix.
2. Draw the holding pattern
(omit steps 1 and 2 for a published hold since NACO or Jepp was nice enough to do it for you).
3. Draw your airplane approaching the fix.

Isn't the type of entry pretty obvious?
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Simplest Yet:

Drop 1/3 of the possible patterns (parallel), decrease your mental workload by 75%!

Cross the fix and either enter direct, or turn 45 degrees from the outbound to make a teardrop.

Direct or Teardrop. Why the FAA has to add that 3rd one, confounding millions of students for decades is beyond me.

You can even do it in a fast mover, thus it should be easy in our light singles.

(Thanks Mr. White, DE, Austin, Tx.)
Click to expand...

I like it! The KISS method, not the FAA's strong suit.;)
 
midlifeflyer said:
1. Draw the fix.
2. Draw the holding pattern
(omit steps 1 and 2 for a published hold since NACO or Jepp was nice enough to do it for you).
3. Draw your airplane approaching the fix.

Isn't the type of entry pretty obvious?
Click to expand...

That's how it was first explained to me...whatever looks easiest is probably going to be right.
 
I put the hold diagram onto a clear plastic disc with a suction cup in the middle. The suction cup holds the disc on the face of the DG. Align the outbound course on the disc with the appropriate point on the DG and you have a picture of your course with regard to the hold. If it is a left hand pattern, flip the disc over. Since the disc lives on the DG, you don't have to look for it in your pilot bag when you need it. Also, since it is on a critical instrument that is part of your scan, your aren't looking away at some aid you are holding in your hand.

What you guys said earlier is great and I comprehend it perfectly, now. However, when I get fatigued, I'm grateful for any help I can get.

I checked with Sporty's to see if they would be interested in selling a gadget like this but they weren't.
 
Graueradler said:
I checked with Sporty's to see if they would be interested in selling a gadget like this but they weren't.
Click to expand...


It's probably too good of competition for their little holding entry tool. I'd bet you could sell that someplace else.
 
I like what I was told by someone who works for the FAA and it was funny. "I don't care how you enter. The AIM is not regulatory and the holding techinques depicted are recommend only." I shot back...you will never see a parallel from me again....teardrops or directs only for this cat. Second note... The Army taught me to divide the HSI into three sections while tracking the holding fix. Start from the your heading on top. Go right 70 degrees...if the outbound heading is there, teardrop. Left 110...if the outbound heading is there, parallel...yea right. The bottom "half" that is left over..direct. It does work good and I still the techinque to answer the checkride question.
 
I eyeball it. Easy with a gps, not that much harder if you're just using a chart. What takes the least amount of turning and will keep you in the protected airspace the best? No numbers, no rotating pencils, no nothing.

IMHO, the two most overrated challenges in obtaining the IR are hold entry procedures and copying clearances.
 
drizzt76 said:
I like what I was told by someone who works for the FAA and it was funny. "I don't care how you enter. The AIM is not regulatory and the holding techinques depicted are recommend only."
Click to expand...

That's exactly what my DE told me on my IR checkride!! As long as you hit the fix and stay on the protected side, ATC doesn't give a rip about HOW you enter the hold. :yes:

As with a lot of other things in the IR...Keep it Simple as much as you can!


Mike
 
Get a G1000 to fly it for you



(joking)




they make this pilot stuff too ez
 
I teach 4 entry procedures: direct, parallel, teardrop, and confused. Confused works like this. At the hold fix, turn to the outbound heading (preferably the shortest way). Fly outbound one minute. Turn back to the fix (preferably the shortest way) and fly to the fix. You are now in the hold.
 
drizzt76 said:
I like what I was told by someone who works for the FAA and it was funny. "I don't care how you enter. The AIM is not regulatory and the holding techinques depicted are recommend only." I shot back...you will never see a parallel from me again....teardrops or directs only for this cat. Second note... The Army taught me to divide the HSI into three sections while tracking the holding fix. Start from the your heading on top. Go right 70 degrees...if the outbound heading is there, teardrop. Left 110...if the outbound heading is there, parallel...yea right. The bottom "half" that is left over..direct. It does work good and I still the techinque to answer the checkride question.
Click to expand...

Machado gives a good treatment of that approach in his IFR survival guide book. Made it clear for me.

MikeELP said:
That's exactly what my DE told me on my IR checkride!! As long as you hit the fix and stay on the protected side, ATC doesn't give a rip about HOW you enter the hold. :yes:

As with a lot of other things in the IR...Keep it Simple as much as you can!


Mike
Click to expand...

You still have to know the three for the written. After that's out of the way, this works fine.

Now, I've got to get back in the air and get this finished!
 
John Collins said:
I teach 4 entry procedures: direct, parallel, teardrop, and confused. Confused works like this. At the hold fix, turn to the outbound heading (preferably the shortest way). Fly outbound one minute. Turn back to the fix (preferably the shortest way) and fly to the fix. You are now in the hold.
Click to expand...
If you're not flying very fast and the wind isn't blowing very hard, you'll probably stay in the protected airspace, although you may surprise the heck out of the controller. I once heard a controller chew the ears off a regional airline pilot for turning the "wrong" way like that. In addition, if you're flying something that goes close to the holding pattern speed limit (200 KIAS at/below 6000 feet), or if the wind is blowing hard from the holding side, you could exit the protected airspace and hit something. Best to stick with the first three.
 
If you're flying a fairly fast aircraft and ATC advices you are going to enter a hold further down, just request to slow down. I've used this many times and by the time I'm approaching the fix the hold is cancelled and we proceed. Also coordinate with ATC to extend the legs beyond the normal. In the jet we usually request 20 mile legs.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
If you're flying a fairly fast aircraft and ATC advices you are going to enter a hold further down, just request to slow down.
Click to expand...
I've seen this recommended many times. in the words of one aviation author (which one escapes me at the moment), "why be in a hurry to hold?"
 
Ron Levy said:
If you're not flying very fast and the wind isn't blowing very hard, you'll probably stay in the protected airspace, although you may surprise the heck out of the controller. I once heard a controller chew the ears off a regional airline pilot for turning the "wrong" way like that. In addition, if you're flying something that goes close to the holding pattern speed limit (200 KIAS at/below 6000 feet), or if the wind is blowing hard from the holding side, you could exit the protected airspace and hit something. Best to stick with the first three.
Click to expand...

Ron,

Even if you are at 200 Kts, a 180 degree turn the wrong way will displace you about 1 NM. The primary protected area on the wrong side is at least 3.5 NM below 6000 feet, assuring a 1000 feet required obstacle clearance. Winds blowing you directly away from the hold at 60 knots can displace you another 2 NM. In this example, you are still within the primary protected area. Most of my instrument students are flying in aircraft that would be holding at speeds of 120 Kts or lower and would use less space. Even at the limit of the primary protected area of the hold, additional protection is provided in the secondary area starting at 500 feet and tapering to 0. All I am doing is giving them a plan of action in the event of total confusion that is easy to execute. Of course, if they always turn the shortest way to the outbound heading, they are better off.
 
John Collins said:
Even if you are at 200 Kts, a 180 degree turn the wrong way will displace you about 1 NM.
Click to expand...
First, 200 KIAS at 6000 feet is more like 215 KTAS. Second, at 215 KTAS, a 180 degree standard rate turn has a diameter of about 2.3 miles, not 1 mile. Third, a strong crosswind can shove you another two miles off to the downwind side before you start your inbound turn. Finally, nav system accuracy can put you a further mile or so out. That is, potentially, over five miles out on the non-holding side. And I do believe that's outside the obstruction protected airspace as well as beyond the normal limits of radar separation.
 
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Rotor&Wing said:
You need to know the procedures for the checkride also.
Click to expand...
You have to know how to enter the hold while remaining in protected airspace for the checkride but you do not need to use the AIM recommendations exactly as depicted.

While you are definitely better off using something roughly equivalent to the AIM-recommendation (like avoiding a direct entry to the non-holding side even though in a 172 it will most likely keep you in protected airspace unless the winds are a significant factor) they do not be exact, and the pilot who, say prefers teardrops over parallel entries will not fail because of it (at least so long as the DPE is not a renegade).
 
midlifeflyer said:
You have to know how to enter the hold while remaining in protected airspace for the checkride but you do not need to use the AIM recommendations exactly as depicted.

While you are definitely better off using something roughly equivalent to the AIM-recommendation (like avoiding a direct entry to the non-holding side even though in a 172 it will most likely keep you in protected airspace unless the winds are a significant factor) they do not be exact, and the pilot who, say prefers teardrops over parallel entries will not fail because of it (at least so long as the DPE is not a renegade).
Click to expand...

In the 135/121 world you need to know and use the AIM recommended procedures. Granted, there is always a little wiggle room between entries that most DPE's or check airman will give.

That's the difference between a professional and an amateur is knowing and doing the correct procedure as well as adhering to standardization.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
In the 135/121 world you need to know and use the AIM recommended procedures. Granted, there is always a little wiggle room between entries that most DPE's or check airman will give.

That's the difference between a professional and an amateur is knowing and doing the correct procedure as well as adhering to standardization.
Click to expand...
I'll agree with standardization as a worthy goal, but "correct procedure" is not fixed in stone since the AIM recommendations are not "the law" (unless they are written into your OpSpecs). Even the FAA has repetedly warned DPEs about failing people on it.

btw, I'm not talking about making up entries. I'm in the group that thinks that the AIM-recommendations represent the universe of the types of entries that make sense so long as one recognizes the lines between them as fuzzy rather than fixed.

I'd also argue that the hallmark of a professional (in anything) is using professional judgment rather than blind adherence.
 
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