Is this a red flag when looking for a flight school?

N918KT

N918KT

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KT
A flight school I found near my home offers sport pilot training. I checked out the flight school about a month ago. However a problem I found with that flight school is that the LSA they offer has a pilot-side door that does not hold up when opening, and this is a gull-wing door which opens upward instead of to the side. It was quite hard for me to hold the door up while trying to climb in and out of the aircraft. I asked the CFI if they are planning on fixing the door anytime soon and he said it's not likely that the school is going to fix the door anytime soon because it is quite expensive to fix it and it is not a huge issue for the school to fix the LSA pilot-side door.

What do you guys think? Is this a red flag in the flight school in that they are not willing to fix something on an aircraft that looks like a minor problem (but seems that I would have a tough time climbing in and out of this particular LSA)? Should I suck it up or steer clear of this school?
 
Does the lack of maintenance erode your trust in the condition of the aircraft?

I know it would erode mine. I wouldn't want to be 3,000 ft up in the air wonder f what other maintenance was deferred because it was "too expensive."

In other words,read MauleSkinner's response.
 
Suck it up. Its not a flight safety issue. Every plane I've ever flown in is either hard to get in or hard to get out. Usually both.

The prep for flying is never easy. Low wings often require you to craw under to check the sump, high wings require you to lug a ladder around to fuel.

But once in the air it becomes a joy.
 
Thanks for the replies so far everyone. The door is probably not a safety issue. I just see that I am going to have problems every time getting in and out of the high-wing LSA which is a Pipistrel Alpha Trainer. It also questions me how dedicated the school is to maintaining their LSA whether major or minor.

I also found other flight schools farther out which might offer sport pilot training. One in Claremont Airport, MD is about a 50-55 minute drive, which offers an Ercoupe with rudder pedals and another one at Harford County Airport, MD with Harford Air Services. Harford Air Services offer the Skycatcher and it's approximately an hour without traffic. Both are cheaper in rates than the school I was looking at.
 
It's one thing to properly defer something per 91.213. It's quite another to just say we won't fix it.
 
N918KT said:
Thanks for the replies so far everyone. The door is probably not a safety issue. I just see that I am going to have problems every time getting in and out of the high-wing LSA which is a Pipistrel Alpha Trainer. It also questions me how dedicated the school is to maintaining their LSA whether major or minor.

I also found other flight schools farther out which might offer sport pilot training. One in Claremont Airport, MD is about a 50-55 minute drive, which offers an Ercoupe with rudder pedals and another one at Harford County Airport, MD with Harford Air Services. Harford Air Services offer the Skycatcher and it's approximately an hour without traffic. Both are cheaper in rates than the school I was looking at.
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it might very well be a safety issue. I trained in a C-162 with the same gull-wing doors. one of the final steps in prepping for an emergency landing is to unlatch the doors which would cause them to open. if the door won't open and stay open as it was designed to do then should an emergency occur your egress from the aircraft might very well be delayed. not a good thing. find another school.
 
jordane93 said:
A school not willing to fix a known maintenance issue isn't a matter of "sucking it up."
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This. Even if it isn't a safety of flight issue, if they are deferring that kind of obvious maintenance issue, then you naturally have to ask: what else are they deferring?

Sometimes it can be more of an owner thing vs flight school if the airplane is a leaseback. In other words, there may be other airplanes at the school that are better maintained.
 
You're probably flown on a airliner that had some MX issue deferred too. Does this plane have a MEL or any info on flying with that door spring/piston/whatever inop?

Reason #562 why a 1940s champ is still a better "LSA" than these new cheaply built plastic LSAs.
 
James331 said:
You're probably flown on a airliner that had some MX issue deferred too.
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With the level of regulation on what can be deferred in the 121 world, as long as it isn't an airline like Allegiant, I'm not too worried about deferred maintenance on an airliner.
 
The door isn't the main safety issue you should be concerned about. The CFI who is accepting the defective door is the big problem.
 
Flight schools have beat up equipment. Rental planes are also beat up. If you want to make sure you are in a safe airplane buy one and hire an independent CFI to train you in it.
 
citizen5000 said:
Flight schools have beat up equipment. Rental planes are also beat up. If you want to make sure you are in a safe airplane buy one and hire an independent CFI to train you in it.
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There's a difference between beat up equipment and a school purposely not fixing something even though they know is busted. The OP says the school probably won't fix the door because it will be an expensive fix. That sounds pretty sketchy to me.
 
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The bigger problem is the OP is a student who would have no way of knowing what else is wrong with the plane other than an easily visible door problem. If he bought a plane either new or checked out by a mechanic at least he would have a shot at flying something that others have verified is sound. And he wouldn't be dependent on a flight school that appears to be too cheap to keep their equipment in top shape.
 
Why not ask the director of maintenance about the door?

As some guy on the internet, I could say that the door is left that way because death benefits are cheaper than health benefits and I am sure a few people might believe me.
 
Personally, I wouldn't fly any rental other than a Cirrus. So yeah, run away like your life depends on it.
 
I'm kind of on the fence on this one. On the one hand, it's a clear problem that is making entry difficult for customers. So, it really should be fixed just from a sensible business perspective.

However, I'd really want more than just the OP's instructors opinion of why the door isn't being fixed. CFIs often aren't privy to the reasons behind maintenance actions taken by the school. Talk to the mechanic instead.

I also probably wouldn't make a determination of maintenance practices from this one item. It may very well be a very expensive fix. A client of mine has a Bonanza where the door won't stay open. He told me he's had it looked at, and due to whatever the problem is, would require practically replacing the whole door. So he's opted not to do it. It makes getting in and out a little harder, but that doesn't mean the rest of the maintenance is shoddy.

Flight schools and rental airplanes always have maintenance deferrals. Not many of them are necessarily, by themselves, an indication of general maintenance practices. Lots of real life examples. How many flight school airplanes have a permanently inop autopilot? Lots. How about a single probe stock EGT gauge? Neither is necessary for safe flight, and may just be a realistic business decision to not fix. Doesn't necessarily indicate anything about other maintenance.

You need more information to be able to say you should be concerned. Just the door isn't enough.

Also, for all you or the CFI knows, the parts may be on the way to fix it next week.
 
Velocity173 said:
Personally, I wouldn't fly any rental other than a Cirrus. So yeah, run away like your life depends on it.
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A Cirrus is a verity high maintence airplane because of a lot of complexity. So a Cirrus isn't what you want if you will not accept stuff breaking.
 
Pride of ownership speaks volumes to me both in rental planes that a club owns or on planes that are on lease back. Planes may be plenty "safe" to fly with some legally deferred maintenance items however it still bothers me if there is obvious issues with a plane, especially if I'm spending well over $100 per hour to use it I would expect it to be in ship shape.
 
Clip4 said:
A Cirrus is a verity high maintence airplane because of a lot of complexity. So a Cirrus isn't what you want if you will not accept stuff breaking.
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I don't do anything without leather and glass...and a big azz parachute.

Velocity,

"Otherwise, I wouldn't go near that thing."
 
OP,

Too many unanswered questions.

What model aircraft? LSA is pretty generic.

What is the defective part?

How much does it cost?

If the part is a snubber assembly that can be swapped with the other door, has that been suggested? Better to have the instructor inconvenienced than the paying customer.

Do you feel that egress would be hampered in an emergency?

Who have you spoken to besides the CFI?

It is quite possible that the part is on order on even on hand but they are waiting until the next time the plane is down for inspection to do the work. This is very common.

You need all the details that you can obtain there before seeking guidance here.
 
I am amazed at some people that show up at the flight school I work with and are turned off, by paint or some other items that are more of an inconvenience than safety. Rental planes take a beating, one reason I would never put mine on leaseback. The school I work with spends a lot of time with those planes in the hangar, and the profit margin on a rental plane is small. So do schools evaluate cost vs risk, absolutely. That is just the nature of the business. As it has been said, If you want a plane the way you want it. You might as buy your own. renting I can always find something broken.
 
SkyDog58 said:
OP,

Too many unanswered questions.

What model aircraft? LSA is pretty generic.

What is the defective part?

How much does it cost?

If the part is a snubber assembly that can be swapped with the other door, has that been suggested? Better to have the instructor inconvenienced than the paying customer.

Do you feel that egress would be hampered in an emergency?

Who have you spoken to besides the CFI?

It is quite possible that the part is on order on even on hand but they are waiting until the next time the plane is down for inspection to do the work. This is very common.

You need all the details that you can obtain there before seeking guidance here.
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1. Pipistrel Alpha Trainer. High-wing SLSA.
2. Pilot side door won't stay up when open and it's a gull-wing door which opens upward instead of to the side. I don't remember what exactly the CFI said why it won't hold up but I think a certain part, hinge, or spring that holds the door open is broken or something. I have to hold the door open with my hand while trying to climb in and out of the aircraft which is quite a bit tricky and probably I could see myself having an issue climbing into and out of the aircraft every time I go flying. That being said, I have not been inside a small airplane cockpit for several years.
3. IIRC the CFI mentioned $4,000 or so to repair it.
4. Hasn't been suggested.
5. Probably it would delay me getting out in an emergency but I don't know.
6. Spoken with the flight school owner over Facebook and the Office Manager over the phone. But that was a couple days before I arrived at the school, a staff person have me met with one of the CFIs, and that's when I discovered the problem when he have me look at the LSA.
 
4K to replace a door actuator? It's not a helicopter.
 
TommyG said:
I am amazed at some people that show up at the flight school I work with and are turned off, by paint or some other items that are more of an inconvenience than safety. Rental planes take a beating, one reason I would never put mine on leaseback. The school I work with spends a lot of time with those planes in the hangar, and the profit margin on a rental plane is small. So do schools evaluate cost vs risk, absolutely. That is just the nature of the business. As it has been said, If you want a plane the way you want it. You might as buy your own. renting I can always find something broken.
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The issue that I have is it's a known issue and they haven't taken the steps to correct it. That's really bad. Even if it doesn't affect the safety of flight, it should still be addressed. Saying, "it's an expensive fix so we probably won't fix it," is a little scary to me. This isn't an issue of chipped paint or ripped vinyl from the seats, which is normal wear and tear. One of the things that attracted me to my flight school was the maintenance. Everything, no matter how minor, was squawked and fixed within a timely matter. Things like interior wear and other cosmetic stuff weren't addressed immediately, but they were eventually addressed and fixed.
 
N918KT said:
1. Pipistrel Alpha Trainer. High-wing SLSA.
2. Pilot side door won't stay up when open and it's a gull-wing door which opens upward instead of to the side. I don't remember what exactly the CFI said why it won't hold up but I think a certain part, hinge, or spring that holds the door open is broken or something. I have to hold the door open with my hand while trying to climb in and out of the aircraft which is quite a bit tricky and probably I could see myself having an issue climbing into and out of the aircraft every time I go flying. That being said, I have not been inside a small airplane cockpit for several years.
3. IIRC the CFI mentioned $4,000 or so to repair it.
4. Hasn't been suggested.
5. Probably it would delay me getting out in an emergency but I don't know.
6. Spoken with the flight school owner over Facebook and the Office Manager over the phone. But that was a couple days before I arrived at the school, a staff person have me met with one of the CFIs, and that's when I discovered the problem when he have me look at the LSA.
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And #5 should be the red flag you seek.
 
jordane93 said:
The issue that I have is it's a known issue and they haven't taken the steps to correct it. That's really bad. Even if it doesn't affect the safety of flight, it should still be addressed. Saying, "it's an expensive fix so we probably won't fix it," is a little scary to me. This isn't an issue of chipped paint or ripped vinyl from the seats, which is normal wear and tear. One of the things that attracted me to my flight school was the maintenance. Everything, no matter how minor, was squawked and fixed within a timely matter. Things like interior wear and other cosmetic stuff weren't addressed immediately, but they were eventually addressed and fixed.
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The only reason your school was good with the MX was the upscale appeal of the cirrus sales pitch. I can tell you one of the warriors had a leak from the windshield, definitely a safety of flight issue that was not corrected properly. Being it was a leaseback maybe they didn't care about it as much. Now over the 20 years I have been around FRG. Same story as every other school trying to save a buck.
 
TommyG said:
The only reason your school was good with the MX was the upscale appeal of the cirrus sales pitch. I can tell you one of the warriors had a leak from the windshield, definitely a safety of flight issue that was not corrected properly. Being it was a leaseback maybe they didn't care about it as much. Now over the 20 years I have been around FRG. Same story as every other school trying to save a buck.
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Or because we actually want to take care of our planes. We take care of the planes whether they are lease backs or our own.
 
I have never been aloft, military or GA, in an airplane that was without something broken. I just counted on my fingers, and it comes to 44 years.
 
I'd ask about the rest of the maintenance practices. At my university we often didn't fix small issue things right away. We'd write it up and maybe in a few months it would get fixed.

Things like window handles, door/window pistons, cabin heat or air, GPS on the VFR tails, etc..

Sometimes it's because you can't get the freakin part for months!
 
Asking for full payment up front = RUN
 
citizen5000 said:
Flight schools have beat up equipment. Rental planes are also beat up. If you want to make sure you are in a safe airplane buy one and hire an independent CFI to train you in it.
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Just curious...

...did you buy a plane to train in, and if so, what kind.

And it's a bit presumptuous to assume that the only way to fly a safe plane is to buy one - not everyone can afford to buy.
 
Hello all. I just talked with the flight school owner online again and addressed my concerns regarding the pilot side door problem on the Pipistrel Alpha Trainer LSA. He said that this problem keeps recurring because they replaced that part on the LSA numerous times and every time they do, a renter pilot pulls on the door without releasing the catch and pulls the part out of its seat. He understands my concerns about having a safe aircraft to fly and said that it's easy and straightforward to get out even if I have to in a hurry. He also have the same problem getting in and out of the aircraft but says as long as the instructor holds the door open, it's not a problem. He assured me that the aircraft is still in good condition to fly.

The flight school is taking the LSA to Lancaster, PA this week to do some routine maintenance and he will try to have this problem addressed and taken care of while there.

So I think the flight school owner is going to take care of this problem although this problem is a recurring problem.
 
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