Completing kits for others.

Tarheelpilot said:
If you're under supervision of the owner and not compensated your efforts can be part of the 51%. Anyone sourcing parts or labor can not count as part of the 51%. Your examples of paint avionics install and wire harness build all are ineligible for being part of 51%.
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So how do those armies of helpers in the 'two weeks to taxi' programs get counted ? Are they all working for free ?
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Im not familiar with what you are referring.
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That some manufacturers of kit aircraft offer extensive completion services and somehow the FAA is a-ok with it. Through whatever magic '51% pixi dust' they use, a builder is able to construct a 8 seat plane with a composite pressurized fuselage and install a turbine powerplant while he keeps his day-job as real estate developer or dentist.
 
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weilke said:
That some manufacturers of kit aircraft offer extensive completion services and somehow the FAA is a-ok with it. Through whatever magic '51% pixi dust' they use, a builder is able to construct a 8 seat plane with a composite pressurized fuselage and install a turbine powerplant while the builder keeps his day-job as real estate developer or dentist.
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Sounds like selective enforcement to me.
 
weilke said:
That some manufacturers of kit aircraft offer extensive completion services and somehow the FAA is a-ok with it. Through whatever magic '51% pixi dust' they use, a builder is able to construct a 8 seat plane with a composite pressurized fuselage and install a turbine powerplant while he keeps his day-job as real estate developer or dentist.
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More about the 51% rule from Velocity.

http://www.velocityaircraft.com/newsv5/halfrule.html

I think it does a pretty good job of explaining the rule and acknowledging the grey areas.
 
Seems this whole discussion took place 5 years ago.

Build assist is okay. Serial builder and seller is okay.

One could argue that a serial builder normally pays for the kit and gets it flying without having a sales contract in hand before the first rivet is punched. But building as recreation is fine, and even selling it while in Phase I is fine.

I'm curious to know if any planes came into existence in the 5 year period using the process described.
 
Here is a FAQ from the EAA regarding the 51% rule.

https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation...ent-rule-on-amateur-built-homebuilt-airplanes

Q: I want to hire someone to finish the wings on my kit. Can I do that?

A: There is no specific prohibition in hiring someone to help with the construction of your aircraft. In fact, that is what you are doing when you purchase a kit; you are hiring someone to help you construct your aircraft. To be eligible for an amateur-built certificate, the “major portion” (at least 51 percent) of the tasks needed to make the aircraft airworthy must be completed by amateurs “solely for their own education or recreation.” So you may hire someone to finish the wings on your kit if you still have 51 percent or more of the tasks remaining to be completed by amateurs solely for their own education or recreation.

To assist builders with assuring that they have accomplished the required number of tasks, the FAA has provided a new checklistthat enables builders to fill in an additional column for “commercial assistance” in addition to the kit provider column. This form helps a builder determine if the project would continue to comply with the amateur-built regulations if he or she hired someone to complete additional tasks originally evaluated by the FAA and kit manufacturer to be amateur-builder tasks.
 
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weilke said:
So how do those armies of helpers in the 'two weeks to taxi' programs get counted ? Are they all working for free ?
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My understanding is they provide tooling and jigs to optimize the build time as well as expert training in the use of the tools required. I don't think there are "armies of helpers". I also understand the build options are limited, such as choices of instruments installed.

This thread describes on example: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...wtt-two-weeks-to-taxi-build-experience.38514/

Here's another write-up: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=13&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiJ_OnlsojSAhXqjFQKHSzZARgQFghhMAw&url=http://www.kitplanes.com/magazine/fixedwing/0806-1220.php&usg=AFQjCNHclI7SqqJXB1yDcakT3NYQYSyHlw&bvm=bv.146786187,d.cGw


weilke said:
That some manufacturers of kit aircraft offer extensive completion services and somehow the FAA is a-ok with it. Through whatever magic '51% pixi dust' they use, a builder is able to construct a 8 seat plane with a composite pressurized fuselage and install a turbine powerplant while he keeps his day-job as real estate developer or dentist.
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Which ones are those?
 
Cap'n Jack said:
So how do those armies of helpers in the 'two weeks to taxi' programs get counted ? Are they all working for free ?
Click to expand...
My understanding is they provide tooling and jigs to optimize the build time as well as expert training in the use of the tools required. I don't think there are "armies of helpers". I also understand the build options are limited, such as choices of instruments installed.
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The other big difference with the "Two Weeks to Taxi" cases is that the companies receive approval for their programs BEFORE the first customer airplane is built. The local FSDO can assess the degree the customer is actually involved in the construction, and give the kit company written assurance that the aircraft can be licensed as Ex-AB if the established procedures are followed.

I'm skeptical of the programs myself, but the FAA has approved several. These are high profile, so it'd be harder to slip them under the wire than the "Homebuilt" Sea-Bee of several years back.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Tarheelpilot said:
If you're under supervision of the owner and not compensated your efforts can be part of the 51%. Anyone sourcing parts or labor can not count as part of the 51%. Your examples of paint avionics install and wire harness build all are ineligible for being part of 51%.

There is no difference in building parts and assembling the kit. It's all part of the manufacturing/building process. The builder of record must do 51% or more
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that isn't what the EAA believes.
The manufacturing of parts by others is limited to 49%, 51% must be done by amateurs to get the AB status that is all the rule requires. It says nothing about who those amateurs must be.
 
wanttaja said:
The other big difference with the "Two Weeks to Taxi" cases is that the companies receive approval for their programs BEFORE the first customer airplane is built. The local FSDO can assess the degree the customer is actually involved in the construction, and give the kit company written assurance that the aircraft can be licensed as Ex-AB if the established procedures are followed.

I'm skeptical of the programs myself, but the FAA has approved several. These are high profile, so it'd be harder to slip them under the wire than the "Homebuilt" Sea-Bee of several years back.

Ron Wanttaja
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I agree with Ron !
But these 2 week to taxi programs are way different than what was asked. I see no restrictions on what can be hired out, by the owner as long as the owners are supervising the build.
 
Tom-D said:
I agree with Ron !
But these 2 week to taxi programs are way different than what was asked. I see no restrictions on what can be hired out, by the owner as long as the owners are supervising the build.
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If someone is paid, are they really an amateur? The school project and the OshKosh build mentioned earlier in the thread used unpaid labor. Since you are being paid. it is hard to prove the amateur status. More difficult if the person is an A&P.

My understanding is that any paid assembly subtracts from the 51% required by the "builder".
This link (Ron Wattaja- http://www.wanttaja.com/avlinks/faq.htm ) suggests that the FAA looks at tasks, your customer could build a wing rib and you can build the rest of the ribs. If your customer bought a "51%" kit, it seems you couldn't do much beyond providing space, tools, jigs, and advice.

If this is a serious question, why not ask in the VAF or EAA forums?
 
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From the dead horse department:

An A&P may do an amateur build if so chooses. Many E-AB planes are built by people who happen to be A&P's.

The plane may subsequently sold. Many E-AB planes include A&P built in the ads on Barnstormers, Trade-a-plane, VAF, etc.

The sticky part seems to be if the build is financed and built by the A&P and then sold, vs contracted for sale in advance. The first seems fine for the intent of the statutes and the later does not.
 
Tom-D said:
that isn't what the EAA believes.
The manufacturing of parts by others is limited to 49%, 51% must be done by amateurs to get the AB status that is all the rule requires. It says nothing about who those amateurs must be.
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But it does say if someone amateur, pro or manufacturer is PAID, it cannot count as part of the 51% as has been repeatedly shown. So if you want to be paid to build part of the airplane for someone, just make sure you or the builder are NOT PAID for at least 51% of the work if it is to be certificated as E/AB.

Cheers
 
I'm sure he won't be "building" it but supervising the build.....and he could do that.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
I'm sure he won't be "building" it but supervising the build.....and he could do that.
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Then he is running the business similar to the "2 weeks to taxi" program, and he already said that isn't model. Tom already said the customer is supervising the build. See his post # 134
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Then he is running the business similar to the "2 weeks to taxi" program, and he already said that isn't model. Tom already said the customer is supervising the build. See his post # 134
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are you insinuating Tom would break the rules to make a buck? :eek:

wonder what percentage of build the engine is given?o_O
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
are you insinuating Tom would break the rules to make a buck? :eek:

wonder what percentage of build the engine is given?o_O
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I don't know what Tom would do. Ask him :)

My opinion is if someone buys a "51%" kit, paying someone to do anything pushes it out of the "51%" rule. If they buy a set of plans, and builds one rib, they could pay someone to build the rest of the ribs and still be consider themselves to be the builder of the ribs; they could then do the other tasks the same way. My opinion is subject to change when more information is available.

As for the engine, I really don't know. If one uses an engine used in certified planes such as Cessna or Mooney, I know one of the testing phases is much shorter than a plane using a "non-certified" engine.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
wonder what percentage of build the engine is given?o_O
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AFAIK, zero since it doesn't usually come with the kit. Installation, plumbing, wiring etc. counts but even if you assemble the engine, it probably doesn't count as part of the 51%. I'd ask the FSDO to be sure.

Cheers
 
X3 Skier said:
But it does say if someone amateur, pro or manufacturer is PAID, it cannot count as part of the 51% as has been repeatedly shown. So if you want to be paid to build part of the airplane for someone, just make sure you or the builder are NOT PAID for at least 51% of the work if it is to be certificated as E/AB.

Cheers
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You got a reference for that ?
because the Ac says
Compensation. Payment by the amateur builder applicant in cash, services, or other tender to any person who provides assistance for hire in the building of an aircraft.
I don't see it saying this can't be done.
 
Tom-D said:
You got a reference for that ?
because the Ac says
Compensation. Payment by the amateur builder applicant in cash, services, or other tender to any person who provides assistance for hire in the building of an aircraft.
I don't see it saying this can't be done.
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I don't understand the question. Either your being paid (compensated) for building part of the airplane or your not.

Para 7b of the advisory circular explains that paid services cannot be counted as part of the 51% required to register as an E/AB. As long as the paid services are less that 51%, no worries. More than 51%, no E/AB.

See also post 129.

Cheers
 
What constitutes 51% of the build? I've seen several advertized as 99% complete, but upon inspection, there was still 99% yet to be completed.
 
Para 8 (b) In all cases, any fabrication or assembly tasks contracted to another party (for hire) or provided by a commercial assistance center, including commercial assistance provided by a kit manufacturer, cannot reduce the amateur builders’ fabrication and assembly percentage below that required to meet major portion under § 21.191(g).

So if they contract you to build the kit (by buying the kit with their CC and paying you weekly as you've asked) they can't certify it as amateur built.

Can you be paid to build parts? Sure. As long as the sum total of those parts is less than 50%.

Or you finance the whole deal until post registration and then sell it outright. That's OK too.
 
bluerooster said:
What constitutes 51% of the build? I've seen several advertized as 99% complete, but upon inspection, there was still 99% yet to be completed.
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There's a difference between a 99% compete kit and 99% completed kit.

99% complete kit means the builder will have to supply 1% for complete airframe kit.

You're welcome;)
 
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Apparently there are a bunch of folks that do not understand what "commercial service" means. because they all return to that part of the AC.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
What does it mean?
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Hope he provides a citation when he answers!:rolleyes:

Everskyward said:
Here is a FAQ from the EAA regarding the 51% rule.

https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation...ent-rule-on-amateur-built-homebuilt-airplanes

Q: I want to hire someone to finish the wings on my kit. Can I do that?

A: There is no specific prohibition in hiring someone to help with the construction of your aircraft. In fact, that is what you are doing when you purchase a kit; you are hiring someone to help you construct your aircraft. To be eligible for an amateur-built certificate, the “major portion” (at least 51 percent) of the tasks needed to make the aircraft airworthy must be completed by amateurs “solely for their own education or recreation.” So you may hire someone to finish the wings on your kit if you still have 51 percent or more of the tasks remaining to be completed by amateurs solely for their own education or recreation.

To assist builders with assuring that they have accomplished the required number of tasks, the FAA has provided a new checklist that enables builders to fill in an additional column for “commercial assistance” in addition to the kit provider column. This form helps a builder determine if the project would continue to comply with the amateur-built regulations if he or she hired someone to complete additional tasks originally evaluated by the FAA and kit manufacturer to be amateur-builder tasks.
Click to expand...

Tom-D said:
You got a reference for that ?
because the Ac says
Compensation. Payment by the amateur builder applicant in cash, services, or other tender to any person who provides assistance for hire in the building of an aircraft.
I don't see it saying this can't be done.
Click to expand...
Look above your quote; Everskyward provided a citation.
It appears you are ignoring those that provide the information you ask for.

For the 3rd time, the VAF or EAA forums can provide you with more useful information from your targeted market.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
What does it mean?
Click to expand...
To people here or the FAA ? People here believe that if anyone besides the owner touches the build, they are commercial assistance.
The FAA simply doesn't mention anyone else or limit who can assist, only who can get the repairman certificate. Many builders combine their efforts in the same locations to assist each other and The FAA does not care unless there is some one offering to complete aircraft unassisted or supervised by the aircraft's new owner. and they have busted several build centers for doing just that.
I have completed 4 different E/AB aircraft here at the house for owners that could not complete their aircraft, then had the DAR (on2) inspect them and two aircraft were inspected by the federals and never once did they ask who built how much.
In reality, If I were to rivet your fuselage together hand it to you to finish, the FAA wouldn't give a hoot, they would simply consider it done under your supervision.
read the FARS ( 21.191 / 21.193 ) that is where it is law, the AC is just the recommended method.
 
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Tom-D said:
To people here or the FAA ? People here believe that if anyone besides the owner touches the build, they are commercial assistance.
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Uh, no. You really should read the posts again. If the person other than the owner that touches the build is paid, that is commercial assistance. If the person(s) assisting aren't paid, that isn't commercial assistance.

I'm sure you aren't reading the comments others post with that statement.

Tom-D said:
The FAA simply doesn't mention anyone else or limit who can assist, only who can get the repairman certificate. Many builders combine their efforts in the same locations to assist each other and The FAA does not care unless there is some one offering to complete aircraft unassisted or supervised by the aircraft's new owner. and they have busted several build centers for doing just that.
I have completed 4 different E/AB aircraft here at the house for owners that could not complete their aircraft, then had the DAR (on2) inspect them and two aircraft were inspected by the federals and never once did they ask who built how much.
In reality, If I were to rivet your fuselage together hand it to you to finish, the FAA wouldn't give a hoot, they would simply consider it done under your supervision.
read the FARS ( 21.191 / 21.193 ) that is where it is law, the AC is just the recommended method.
Click to expand...
I suppose it depends on how the paperwork is presented, and how much of the "51%" rule is covered by the "builder" themselves.
 
Ravioli said:
From the dead horse department:

An A&P may do an amateur build if so chooses. Many E-AB planes are built by people who happen to be A&P's.

The plane may subsequently sold. Many E-AB planes include A&P built in the ads on Barnstormers, Trade-a-plane, VAF, etc.

The sticky part seems to be if the build is financed and built by the A&P and then sold, vs contracted for sale in advance. The first seems fine for the intent of the statutes and the later does not.
Click to expand...
You are correct. I don't think anyone here has said otherwise.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I suppose it depends on how the paperwork is presented, and how much of the "51%" rule is covered by the "builder" themselves.
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That in the end, would be determined by the DAR/FAA inspector. And they mostly will be swayed by the better quality work of a professional, in what ever endeavor they have been in involved
 
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