Completing kits for others.

GlennAB1 said:
Ahhhh, we're getting somewhere, you're going to argue till you see realistic numbers.... just tell us, Tom.
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That was the question.
let's put it a different way.. If it requires 500 man hours wold it be worth 25 bucks per hour? I provide the tools, and work space, you get a part.
just like any other job you'd like done.
 
Tom-D said:
They will do that. in the most resent case was the high school shop instructor that had his class build an aircraft that he only supervised the build.
then who was the builder of the quick build kit demo done at OSH last few years?
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the difference is that the high school build WAS done for education. in your proposal, the parts you build are for commercial gain and not amateur built. the regs allow for commercial assistance but the majority of tasks must be done by amateurs. spin it any way you want, it is not legal to be paid to build a kit for someone.

bob
 
Tom-D said:
I tried to in post 51. how do you want to do the paperwork? it is a matter of who the FAA declares the manufacturer.
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You're the manufacturer. "2017 Tom-D Vans RV-8"
You sell it to somebody and it's then involved in a fatal accident due to a fault by you the manufacturer. Is it considered builders neglect which in-turn makes you liable if litigation ensues? Seems like you would be, right?
 
unsafervguy said:
the difference is that the high school build WAS done for education. in your proposal, the parts you build are for commercial gain and not amateur built. the regs allow for commercial assistance but the majority of tasks must be done by amateurs. spin it any way you want, it is not legal to be paid to build a kit for someone.

bob
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The guy I built the part for would be the builder and he's the one who gets the education. and that meets the FA requirement.
 
Ryanb said:
You're the manufacturer. "2017 Tom-D Vans RV-8"
You sell it to somebody and it's then involved in a fatal accident due to a fault by you the manufacturer. Is it considered builders neglect which in-turn makes you liable if litigation ensues? Seems like you would be, right?
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Not If I did not build the whole thing and complete the paper as owner.
 
Ryanb said:
You're the manufacturer. "2017 Tom-D Vans RV-8"
You sell it to somebody and it's then involved in a fatal accident due to a fault by you the manufacturer. Is it considered builders neglect which in-turn makes you liable if litigation ensues? Seems like you would be, right?
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Would the shop who painted the aircraft be the manufacturer ?
 
Tom, done all the time. Yes, at $25 per hour you'd be a popular guy.
 
Tom-D said:
Not to the FAA.
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So a person who has zero practical understanding or knowledge of what or why the hired person actually did to construct the aircraft will be authorized by the FAA as the builder to perform maintenance and conduct the annual inspection?

What level of "supervision" is required? Minute by minute, once a week, review of major component completion? What knowledge is the "builder" required to have to "supervise" an AMT or other less qualified person?

Cheers
 
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 20-27G.pdf

b. We recommend that before you build your aircraft, you contact your local FAA MIDO or FSDO. Discuss the type of aircraft, its complexity, and its materials. Provide a three-view sketch, drawing, or photograph of the proposed aircraft project, and an approximate date of construction completion. Notify your local FAA MIDO or FSDO if you intend to use commercial assistance to build your aircraft. Keep in mind that a determination of major portion will be made by evaluating the amount of work accomplished by the amateur builder(s) against the total amount of work necessary to complete the aircraft, excluding standard procured items.

Note: The major portion of the aircraft is defined as more than
50 percent of the fabrication and assembly tasks, commonly referred to as the “51-percent rule.” For example, an amateur-built kit found on the FAA List of Amateur-Built Aircraft Kits has 40 percent of the fabrication/assembly completed by the kit manufacturer. In order to be eligible for an experimental amateur-built airworthiness certificate and per the major portion rule, the fabrication and assembly tasks that may be contracted out (for hire) to another individual (or builder/commercial assistance center) needs to be less than 10 percent.
 
Tom-D said:
OBTW look them up, we own Newmar Mountain Aire. (40')
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nice ride.....on a EAB builder's pay. :D

careful how you sell this.....I've heard stories of a guy who had a beautiful super cub built like this. They took his data plate and it's value is now next to scrap. I believe the builder "was" an IA...but not no mo.
 
Thanks, Everskyward

I was wondering when that would be posted. The assertion in 62 and 76 that it makes no difference to the FAA if the person doing the work is paid or not must be an "alternate fact".

Cheers
 
Tom-D said:
The guy I built the part for would be the builder and he's the one who gets the education. and that meets the FA requirement.
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wrong, writing a check is not an education.did you just write a check and get your A&P handed to you? no, you went to school and earned it. the FAA looks at tasks, so if you complete what they consider 51% of the tasks then in is not E-AB. there are a lot of people that build sub parts for the homebuilt world. you can buy fuel tanks completed for RV's, but if you are payed to assemble a kit beyond the 51% tasks the faa uses to evaluate a kit, you are a commercial builder PERIOD. if you want to build certain parts that are tough like tanks and canopies great, but if you are going to build the whole airframe you are breaking the rules.

​
Tom-D said:
The guy I built the part for would be the builder and he's the one who gets the education. and that meets the FA requirement.
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Question,, When I build a part for your aircraft, you place in use, you get the airworthy certificate in your name. How does the FAA or anyone else know I built the part?
X3 Skier said:
Thanks, Everskyward

I was wondering when that would be posted. The assertion in 62 and 76 that it makes no difference to the FAA if the person doing the work is paid or not must be an "alternate fact".

Cheers
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Here is the word from the FAA:
https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation...~/media/68622b08072841d6b76c8cc7c3d51be0.ashx
 
[QUOTE="unsafervguy, post: 2226534, member: 9913" wrong, writing a check is not an education.did you just write a check and get your A&P handed to you?[/QUOTE]
He didn't write the check for the whole aircraft. just a part same as hiring the AV shop to do the radio/nav pac. or painting the aircraft. check the rules on compensation.
and do not confuse the "commercial builder" with what I would do.
 
Everskyward said:
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 20-27G.pdf

b. We recommend that before you build your aircraft, you contact your local FAA MIDO or FSDO. Discuss the type of aircraft, its complexity, and its materials. Provide a three-view sketch, drawing, or photograph of the proposed aircraft project, and an approximate date of construction completion. Notify your local FAA MIDO or FSDO if you intend to use commercial assistance to build your aircraft. Keep in mind that a determination of major portion will be made by evaluating the amount of work accomplished by the amateur builder(s) against the total amount of work necessary to complete the aircraft, excluding standard procured items.

Note: The major portion of the aircraft is defined as more than
50 percent of the fabrication and assembly tasks, commonly referred to as the “51-percent rule.” For example, an amateur-built kit found on the FAA List of Amateur-Built Aircraft Kits has 40 percent of the fabrication/assembly completed by the kit manufacturer. In order to be eligible for an experimental amateur-built airworthiness certificate and per the major portion rule, the fabrication and assembly tasks that may be contracted out (for hire) to another individual (or builder/commercial assistance center) needs to be less than 10 percent.
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Read page 10 where it says.:

(5) Identifying Circumstances Not Considered Commercial Assistance.

Commercial assistance does not include the instance where an incomplete aircraft is sold to another builder and the second builder completes the aircraft. In such a case, the work performed by the first builder or subsequent amateur builders, counts toward completion of the major portion by the second builder. The burden of proof that the aircraft is amateur-built and eligible for an experimental certificate remains with and is the responsibility of the applicant. The second builder should obtain as much detailed information and documentation (see paragraph 7h) from the original builder as possible. If this information is not available, we may not be able to find compliance to the major portion requirement of § 21.191(g).
 
Tom-D said:
Read page 10 where it says.:

(5) Identifying Circumstances Not Considered Commercial Assistance.

Commercial assistance does not include the instance where an incomplete aircraft is sold to another builder and the second builder completes the aircraft. In such a case, the work performed by the first builder or subsequent amateur builders, counts toward completion of the major portion by the second builder. The burden of proof that the aircraft is amateur-built and eligible for an experimental certificate remains with and is the responsibility of the applicant. The second builder should obtain as much detailed information and documentation (see paragraph 7h) from the original builder as possible. If this information is not available, we may not be able to find compliance to the major portion requirement of § 21.191(g).
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if you are building parts for money you are not an amateur builder. PERIOD.
 
From that same AC

Compensation. Payment by the amateur builder applicant in cash, services, or other tender to any person who provides assistance for hire in the building of an aircraft.
 
Tom-D said:
Question,, When I build a part for your aircraft, you place in use, you get the airworthy certificate in your name. How does the FAA or anyone else know I built the part?

Here is the word from the FAA:
https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation...~/media/68622b08072841d6b76c8cc7c3d51be0.ashx
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As I said, if the "builder" presents a builder's log showing someone else the "builder" paid building the entire airplane, it would be evidence that they did more than the permitted 10%. You said it would be perfectly fine and make no difference if the person was paid or not. See post 62 and 76.

Cheers
 
Think about it?
When you send me a RV fuselage to right together Am I building parts? or am I assembling them as assistance to the builder?
 
X3 Skier said:
As I said, if the "builder" presents a builder's log showing someone else the "builder" paid building the entire airplane, it would be evidence that they did more than the permitted 10%. You said it would be perfectly fine and make no difference if the person was paid or not. See post 62 and 76.

Cheers
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When I assembled the fuselage would I be building the entire aircraft?
Read post 97 again it came from the same AC.
 
Tom-D said:
From that same AC

Compensation. Payment by the amateur builder applicant in cash, services, or other tender to any person who provides assistance for hire in the building of an aircraft.
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Right. And you're the one who is proposing to provide assistance for hire.
 
X3 Skier said:
As I said, if the "builder" presents a builder's log showing someone else the "builder" paid building the entire airplane, it would be evidence that they did more than the permitted 10%. You said it would be perfectly fine and make no difference if the person was paid or not. See post 62 and 76.

Cheers
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After re-reading your post :
The question would be
" who gets the repairmen's certificate.
Not the question of "is it amateur built"?
 
Ryanb said:
You're the manufacturer. "2017 Tom-D Vans RV-8"
You sell it to somebody and it's then involved in a fatal accident due to a fault by you the manufacturer. Is it considered builders neglect which in-turn makes you liable if litigation ensues? Seems like you would be, right?
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How often has the builder of an experimental been successfully sued ? I am sure there is one, but overall it doesn't seem to be a major issue.
 
Everskyward said:
Right. And you're the one who is proposing to provide assistance for hire.
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that is the intention, as I am not a Commercial builder such as a kit manufacturer. I'd be the same as anyone that specializes in a certain expertise or has the special tools for certain jobs like recovering, welding, or painting.
The FAA does in fact encourage getting help and covers that in the AC you noted.
 
Tom-D said:
When I assembled the fuselage would I be building the entire aircraft?
Read post 97 again it came from the same AC.
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Since you continue to ignore the fact that you said it was ok by the FAA to be paid to build the entire aircraft, I'll stop pointing it out.

Regarding the fuselage example, it would depend on if that constituted more than 10% of the aircraft. Or if whatever it was in addition whatever else the builder paid for additional help added up to more than 10%.

Good luck if you decide to start a business of builder's assist.

Cheers
 
weilke said:
How often has the builder of an experimental been successfully sued ? I am sure there is one, but overall it doesn't seem to be a major issue.
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I have no idea, but every body these days are skittish of lawyers that come knocking.
 
Tom-D said:
that is the intention, as I am not a Commercial builder such as a kit manufacturer. I'd be the same as anyone that specializes in a certain expertise or has the special tools for certain jobs like recovering, welding, or painting.
The FAA does in fact encourage getting help and covers that in the AC you noted.
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But you're the "other individual" in this paragraph.
In order to be eligible for an experimental amateur-built airworthiness certificate and per the major portion rule, the fabrication and assembly tasks that may be contracted out (for hire) to another individual (or builder/commercial assistance center) needs to be less than 10 percent.
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No doubt many get away with it like other things in aviation...
 
X3 Skier said:
Since you continue to ignore the fact that you said it was ok by the FAA to be paid to build the entire aircraft, I'll stop pointing it out.

Regarding the fuselage example, it would depend on if that constituted more than 10% of the aircraft. Or if whatever it was in addition whatever else the builder paid for additional help added up to more than 10%.

Good luck if you decide to start a business of builder's assist.

Cheers
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Do not confuse the two issues of who can help in the build and who can be the repairman.
as long as all helpers are amateurs it can be issued the X/AB certificate.
Commercial builders must be documented as you point out.
A&Ps are not considered commercial builders.
 
Tom-D said:
Do not confuse the two issues of who can help in the build and who can be the repairman.
as long as all helpers are amateurs it can be issued the X/AB certificate.
Commercial builders must be documented as you point out.
A&Ps are not considered commercial builders.
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I'm not confused. AMT's may or may not be commercial builders but in your examples, they are most certainly are "another individual" contracted out for hire and thus limited to less than 10% if the aircraft is to be issued an E/AB Certificate.

As I say, good luck, if you decide to peruse this.

Cheers
 
Everskyward said:
But you're the "other individual" in this paragraph. No doubt many get away with it like other things in aviation...
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Would you mind copying and pasting the paragraph you mentioned, it is a long AC
Lets not talk about what others get away with :) we know there are some shops that the FAA has shut down.
 
Tom-D said:
Would you mind copying and pasting the paragraph you mentioned, it is a long AC
Lets not talk about what others get away with :) we know there are some shops that the FAA has shut down.
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Everskyward did it twice but here it is again. para 7b
b. We recommend that before you build your aircraft, you contact your local FAA MIDO or FSDO. Discuss the type of aircraft, its complexity, and its materials. Provide a three-view sketch, drawing, or photograph of the proposed aircraft project, and an approximate date of construction completion. Notify your local FAA MIDO or FSDO if you intend to use commercial assistance to build your aircraft. Keep in mind that a determination of major portion will be made by evaluating the amount of work accomplished by the amateur builder(s) against the total amount of work necessary to complete the aircraft, excluding standard procured items.

Note: The major portion of the aircraft is defined as more than
50 percent of the fabrication and assembly tasks, commonly referred to as the “51-percent rule.” For example, an amateur-built kit found on the FAA List of Amateur-Built Aircraft Kits has 40 percent of the fabrication/assembly completed by the kit manufacturer. In order to be eligible for an experimental amateur-built airworthiness certificate and per the major portion rule, the fabrication and assembly tasks that may be contracted out (for hire) to another individual (or builder/commercial assistance center) needs to be less than 10 percent.

Cheers
 
X3 Skier said:
Everskyward did it twice but here it is again. para 7b

In order to be eligible for an experimental amateur-built airworthiness certificate and per the major portion rule, the fabrication and assembly tasks that may be contracted out (for hire) to another individual (or builder/commercial assistance center) needs to be less than 10 percent.

Cheers
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ok got it, now its a matter of is the fuselage assembly more than 10%?
But
If you notice that statement is referring to the 10% of fabrication of the kit, Between the 40% of the kit manufacturer and the 50% of the builder, which is the assembly of the major portion that must be completed by the builder.
 
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The builder must complete more than 50% of the total fabrication and assembly. The remainder can be anyone else else and they can be paid. That's why kit manufacturers disclose what percentage of completion their prefab parts and components constitute. Toms proposal is legal as long as the owner still does 51% or more.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
The builder must complete more than 50% of the total fabrication and assembly. The remainder can be anyone else else and they can be paid. That's why kit manufacturers disclose what percentage of completion their prefab parts and components constitute. Toms proposal is legal as long as the owner still does 51% or more.
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When they supervise that portion, that is enough.
I believe the misunderstanding is what constitutes building parts for the kit. and assembling the kit. I what I proposed I would be assembling the kit under the supervision of an owner.
OR
buying a fuselage kit and assembling it and sell it as a unfinished aircraft.
 
Tom-D said:
When they supervise that portion, that is enough.
I believe the misunderstanding is what constitutes building parts for the kit. and assembling the kit. I what I proposed I would be assembling the kit under the supervision of an owner.
OR
buying a fuselage kit and assembling it and sell it as a unfinished aircraft.
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If you're under supervision of the owner and not compensated your efforts can be part of the 51%. Anyone sourcing parts or labor can not count as part of the 51%. Your examples of paint avionics install and wire harness build all are ineligible for being part of 51%.

There is no difference in building parts and assembling the kit. It's all part of the manufacturing/building process. The builder of record must do 51% or more
 
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