Delta oops...

Don't armchair quarterback. You don't know from that CNN report what the ceiling and visibility were, time of day, or how long the crew had been on duty. We always tune the ILS but...it's possible to break out or spot the runway through the haze and proceed visually. Two runways nearby and similar alignment can cause problems. Gotta watch for it going into ELP and GEG.

There but for the grace of God go I.
 
You're late, already a thread on this. "You'd think this wouldn't happen........"
 
This one mystifies me. I've flown there many times, most recently this past week. Ellsworth runs approach and are diligent at pointing out the position of BOTH airports to you so you won't go to the wrong one. They both look dramatically different. Ellsworth is a complete community alongside a large runway with scores on B1 bombers sitting orderly to the east of the runway. KRAP sits all by itself southeast of the city.

I fly a CRJ, they were in a Bus. Both have glass and modern FMSes that depict your destination. Even if visual we set up a visual approach to the assigned runway in the FMS which throws a five mile fix and final approach course onto the MFD. I'd be really curious what actually took place in their flight deck that allowed this to happen.

I wonder what their first words were when blue security trucks bristling with M-16 toting airmen approached them. "Holy KRAP, Batman!"?? :p
 
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Busflyer said:
Don't armchair quarterback. You don't know from that CNN report what the ceiling and visibility were, time of day, or how long the crew had been on duty. We always tune the ILS but...it's possible to break out or spot the runway through the haze and proceed visually. Two runways nearby and similar alignment can cause problems. Gotta watch for it going into ELP and GEG.

There but for the grace of God go I.
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Not armchairing at all. I have myself almost landed at the wrong airport or runway a few times in my early days. But with my current hard rule of always landing on the magenta centerline, it can't happen, esp. in the situations you describe. So my question is why don't the big boys use that rule too?
 
RotorDude said:
So my question is why don't the big boys use that rule too?
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When I flew at an airline we were required to have the ILS set up or some type of approach/nav set in as LD Jones wrote. I'm sure most if not all airlines have this requirement.
 
mscard88 said:
When I flew at an airline we were required to have the ILS set up or some type of approach/nav set in as LD Jones wrote. I'm sure most if not all airlines have this requirement.
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But "some type of approach/nav" would not necessarily put you on the correct runway. I always use the magenta centerline feature to cross-check I am landing on the correct runway. If they had the same hard rule, this would never happen. This type incident belongs to the pre-GPS past.
 
RotorDude said:
But "some type of approach/nav" would not necessarily put you on the correct runway. I always use the magenta centerline feature to cross-check I am landing on the correct runway. If they had the same hard rule, this would never happen. This type incident belongs to the pre-GPS past.
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Huh? If you dial in the ILS for runway XX, how will that not take you to the correct runway?
 
My private pilot DPE told me during the oral exam about flying IFR into Rapid City. Approach says "Rapid City Regional is at your 1 o'clock, 10 miles, Ellsworth Air Force Base is at your 11 o'clock, 4 miles, report both fields in sight."

I'm curious to hear what ATC said to them, what they said back, and what the weather conditions were like.
 
Here is what I would see on Garmin Pilot Android, a $200 device. You get that for every runway, regardless of approach. Add a single checklist item after checking gear down, "Check magenta runway numbers"...

Screenshot_20160709-075116.png
 
RotorDude said:
I always use the magenta centerline feature to cross-check I am landing on the correct runway. If they had the same hard rule, this would never happen. This type incident belongs to the pre-GPS past.
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That is what I was referring to with the '/nav' part. Like I said, most have a requirement for a back up.
 
jordane93 said:
If you are dialing an approach I'm assuming the runway has an ILS, LOC, VOR, RNAV, etc otherwise I wouldn't be dialing in an approach.
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I accept ILS, LOC and RNAV, but VOR would not necessarily put you accurately on the correct runway. The extended centerline feature in the screenshot I posted above (coupled with a checklist item) will cross-check all situations, including a last minute visual runway change.
 
Oh KRAP!!

Rwy 14-32 vs. 13-31. But I guess that would require reading the runway numbers of the runway you are landing on.

Runway dimensions of 8701 x 150 ft. vs. 13497 x 300 ft. That is a significant difference.

AFD states: "Be alert do not mistake Ellsworth AFB, located 6.5 NM north–northwest for Rapid City Rgnl." But I guess that would require reading the AFD to become familiar with all information.

Both airports are shown on the IFR charts as well as the VFR sectional.

Airport diagrams for the two airports shows the runway layout for KRAP having the crossing runway while the one for KRCA does not.

No excuse for it. There are simply too many indications and too much available information that should have prevented this from happening.
 
Somehow, just about every year or two, some airliner manages to land at the wrong airport. Keeps happening. That VFR GPS isn't available on airliners. My IFR GPS only has extended runway centerlines off the airport centerpoint....
 
I was in the area a few weeks ago and took this picture from our Dakota at about 3000' AGL. Ellsworth AFB runway 13 in the foreground, Rapid City Regional in the distance.

DSCN5485.jpg
 
The irony here is the A320 has some of the best NAV in the business, at 50ft it picks up the 6 nearest nav sources to run a straight line to any destination. Years ago ATC said they could pick out an A320 just by the way it flew straight as a string across country........
 
I don't like to armchair quarterback. But I will leave you will some facts. They landed right around sunset. Landed on 13 at Ellsworth, so they were obviously planning on landing 14 at KRAP. Runway 14 at Rapid City does not have an ILS but has a GPS and VOR to 14. Both of which bring you right down centerline and both of which were in operation. The base area at Ellsworth is on the left side of 13. The terminal area at KRAP is on the right side of 14. Weather at the time they landed was(at both places) winds out of the south, 10SM and clear.
 
LDJones said:
This one mystifies me. I've flown there many times, most recently this past week. Ellsworth runs approach and are diligent at pointing out the position of BOTH airports to you so you won't go to the wrong one. They both look dramatically different. Ellsworth is a complete community alongside a large runway with scores on B2 bombers sitting orderly to the east of the runway. KRAP sits all by itself southeast of the city.
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If Ellsworth has B2's then it moved to Missouri!
 
RotorDude said:
I accept ILS, LOC and RNAV, but VOR would not necessarily put you accurately on the correct runway. The extended centerline feature in the screenshot I posted above (coupled with a checklist item) will cross-check all situations, including a last minute visual runway change.
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But it would assure you don't land at a different airport ten miles away.
 
LDJones said:
But it would assure you don't land at a different airport ten miles away.
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Sure. My point is that the "cross-check the runway number on the extended centerline" as a before landing checklist item would prevent both wrong runway and wrong airport mishaps, which seem to be related.
 
The RNAV to 14 takes you right. over. ellsworth. The last time someone landed there (last year) it was on an RNAV approach in MVFR.

Look at the FlightAware track and you'll see they were vectored (and FAST) north to lose altitude. It would have been totally possible to lose sight of Rapid City and look back and see Ellsworth and go for it. I feel like a broken record because I've typed so much the last couple days on this incident. Ultimately it's the pilots that are at fault for this one. They acknowledged Ellsworth before they were cleared for the visual.

Trying to armchair quarterback using an iPad app is ridiculous, especially if you've never flown in the area. Rapid City is NOT an easy airport to see, but the pilots had plenty of tools to prevent it.
 
Z06_Mir said:
Rapid City is NOT an easy airport to see, but the pilots had plenty of tools to prevent it.
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Really? I just flew 8,000 miles, landing at 35 new (to me) airports and although I did not land at Rapid City, it was easy to spot both Ellsworth and Rapid City. Of course it was about 3 in the afternoon on a clear day.
 
DesertNomad said:
Really? I just flew 8,000 miles, landing at 35 new (to me) airports and although I did not land at Rapid City, it was easy to spot both Ellsworth and Rapid City. Of course it was about 3 in the afternoon on a clear day.
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It takes my students several lessons to be able to find Rapid City with any distance. The concrete is an odd color compared to the surroundings and it's difficult to see. The line of buildings is the easiest to see but they tend to blend in with the horizon. I'm a full-time CFI there so I see a lot of what goes on... A couple days ago I was doing pattern work in MVFR and a guy in a Columbia went missed (with the persuasion of the tower) because on an INSTRUMENT approach he was headed for RCA. It's so common, but if this isn't your stomping grounds you won't realize it.
 
Z06_Mir said:
The RNAV to 14 takes you right. over. ellsworth. The last time someone landed there (last year) it was on an RNAV approach in MVFR.

Look at the FlightAware track and you'll see they were vectored (and FAST) north to lose altitude. It would have been totally possible to lose sight of Rapid City and look back and see Ellsworth and go for it. I feel like a broken record because I've typed so much the last couple days on this incident. Ultimately it's the pilots that are at fault for this one. They acknowledged Ellsworth before they were cleared for the visual.

Trying to armchair quarterback using an iPad app is ridiculous, especially if you've never flown in the area. Rapid City is NOT an easy airport to see, but the pilots had plenty of tools to prevent it.
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Can you tell me how this mistake could have been made if the crew, even if dead tired, had been following a before-landing checklist item to "cross-check runway numbers on the extended centerline"? I claim that with that simple verification such mishaps would never happen again.
 
RotorDude said:
Can you tell me how this mistake could have been made if the crew, even if dead tired, had been following a before-landing checklist item to "cross-check runway numbers on the extended centerline"? I claim that with that simple verification such mishaps would never happen again.
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I'm guessing they didn't follow their SOP or they wouldn't have landed there. We always have the assigned runway in the FMS and some approach (a visual at minimum) programmed.
 
LDJones said:
I'm guessing they didn't follow their SOP or they wouldn't have landed there. We always have the assigned runway in the FMS and some approach (a visual at minimum) programmed.
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I am guessing that setting up an approach and following it is not the same as having a specific checklist item, "verify runway numbers on extended centerline" before every single landing. This is because when you fly an approach and then transition to visual conditions, you look outside, find the runway and land. By having to specifically verify the numbers on the extended centerline for all landings of all kinds (except maybe emergency), you will always get a last minute chance to discover you are not landing where you should.
This is equivalent to the recently-added (after the Kentucky accident?) checklist item to always verify the runway numbers before takeoff.
 
RotorDude said:
I am guessing that setting up an approach and following it is not the same as having a specific checklist item, "verify runway numbers on extended centerline" before every single landing. This is because when you fly an approach and then transition to visual conditions, you look outside, find the runway and land. By having to specifically verify the numbers on the extended centerline for all landings of all kinds (except maybe emergency), you will always get a last minute chance to discover you are not landing where you should.
This is equivalent to the recently-added (after the Kentucky accident?) checklist item to always verify the runway numbers before takeoff.
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I don't think you want to figure out you're at the wrong airport when you're on final. That's why we set it up in the FMS. And even on a visual you're cross checking lots of things inside...like the vertical guidance whether ILS or our FMS-derived vertical guidance (our snowflake in the CRJ).

If you've verified the airport and assigned runway in the FMS all you need to do is fly the white needles to get you to that runway. Somebody didn't do that in this case.
 
LDJones said:
I don't think you want to figure out you're at the wrong airport when you're on final.
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Sure, but better late than never. :)
I agree that if you have it all set up on the FMS and are just following the FD to short final, you are probably safe (assuming your FMS programming is correct). The problem (I think) is when for whatever reason there is some disruption in that process and you transition to visual and then, due to fatigue and/or stress, misidentify either the airport or the runway. This is where a final "verify runway numbers on the extended centerline" checklist item could help.
 
RotorDude said:
Sure, but better late than never. :)
I agree that if you have it all set up on the FMS and are just following the FD to short final, you are probably safe (assuming your FMS programming is correct). The problem (I think) is when for whatever reason there is some disruption in that process and you transition to visual and then, due to fatigue and/or stress, misidentify either the airport or the runway. This is where a final "verify runway numbers on the extended centerline" checklist item could help.
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If they've screwed up that bad up to that point all they'll be verifying is that they're on the final approach to the airport they misprogrammed into the FMS. If you misprogram your Garmin, your magenta lines will happily guide you to the wrong place. No different here.
 
LDJones said:
This one mystifies me. I've flown there many times, most recently this past week. Ellsworth runs approach and are diligent at pointing out the position of BOTH airports to you so you won't go to the wrong one. They both look dramatically different. Ellsworth is a complete community alongside a large runway with scores on B2 bombers sitting orderly to the east of the runway. KRAP sits all by itself southeast of the city.

I fly a CRJ, they were in a Bus. Both have glass and modern FMSes that depict your destination. Even if visual we set up a visual approach to the assigned runway in the FMS which throws a five mile fix and final approach course onto the MFD. I'd be really curious what actually took place in their flight deck that allowed this to happen.

I wonder what their first words were when blue security trucks bristling with M-16 toting airmen approached them. "Holy KRAP, Batman!"?? :p
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Ok, I'm late to this one. Did not see other replies. B-1B at Ellsworth AFB, not B-2.

Flew from there for 4 yrs, lived in the city.
 
Z06_Mir said:
It takes my students several lessons to be able to find Rapid City with any distance. The concrete is an odd color compared to the surroundings and it's difficult to see. The line of buildings is the easiest to see but they tend to blend in with the horizon.
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Interesting. I would not have thought that. I have only ever been to about 75 airports but the hardest to see for me were:

KHTH - Hawthorne, NV (in my local stomping grounds)
KEXX - Davidson Co / Lexington, NC
09J - Jekyll Island, GA

I saw both Ellsworth and Rapid City from miles away but then I was not landing at either one, and I was expecting to see what was on the chart. I think my recent long trip around the country really helped my "spot the airport" skills.
 
most civilian only airfields do not have quasi hardened aircraft shelters, or an alert ramp……just saying :)
 
LDJones said:
But it would assure you don't land at a different airport ten miles away.
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Not necessarily LD. We had a Capt get fired because he landed at the wrong airport while flying an arc to intercept the localizer for the destination airport. The airport he landed at was below the arc and he thought that was it, even though the FO "supposedly" told him it wasn't the correct airport. Very senior pilot but was new on the Brasilia and hadn't been to the cities the Brasilia served. He then took back off without coordinating with dispatch and flew to the correct airport. That's what got him fired, plus the founders of the airline were real a-holes and despised pilots, actually all their employees. Isolated incident but it could happen when the mind takes over.
 
BillTIZ said:
Ok, I'm late to this one. Did not see other replies. B-1B at Ellsworth AFB, not B-2.

Flew from there for 4 yrs, lived in the city.
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Yes, it was a typo. Does it materially alter the essence of my reply?
 
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