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Jay Honeck

Jay Honeck

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Jay Honeck
So I'm doing my condition inspection on my RV-8A, and figure that, with 650 hours on them, I should swap out my Slick mags for rebuilt ones. The plane is running great, but Slick recommends doing this at 500 hours.

Or...

I could throw my mags in the trash (alongside my old vacuum pump), install an electronic ignition system (similar to what cars have had since the 1970s), and enjoy the benefits of a modern, computer controlled engine ignition system.

After much consultation and study I have opted to install EMags (sometimes known as PMags), made by these folks: http://www.emagair.com. Each Emag has a built-in alternator, eliminating the need for the fairly elaborate battery backup systems that earlier aircraft electronic ignitions required.

I will be installing them next week. Anyone else flying with them? Any gotchas on the installation, or words of wisdom?

Thanks!
 
Curious to hear your results once your done.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Curious to hear your results once your done.
Click to expand...

Real world results (according to people who have switched to them) include easier starting, much smoother operation, and a 10 - 15% decrease in fuel burn at cruise.

Also, no more adjusting timing with a buzz box, and no more rebuilding mags.

I'm stoked. I think it will be a great upgrade.
 
I'm assuming you're on the Vans forums. that is the place to ask this question. Awhile back I was really intrigued with these "mags" and really liked their concept, but when I did some searching, I found people having problems and failure with them. I think most of the bitching was from the Vans forum. The fact that they have made zero 'progress towards their originally stated goal of FAA certification and they haven't done much with their website, or promotion of their product, I get the feeling and it is just a feeling, that they are not ready fro prime time. I hope I am wrong. I really do love the idea.

Electronics hate vibration and heat. This is why the ECU in your car is located off the engine and in one of the cooler locations in the engine bay. IIRC, this is not the case with the Pmag. I believe the electronics are housed in the unit itself and suspect it is likely the reason for failures.
 
My friend's RV 7 has P Mags with automotive plugs and I really like them. Engine starts very easy hot or cold and runs really smooth. Make sure you have the correct jumper wire in for the timing. The only problem we had was when the air blast tube came loose and the mag went to limp mode. No other problems except that. Also they are really simple to time. Don
 
The guy at EMAGS told me that the timing should be retarded somewhat when running mogas for best performance. This can be accomplished with a simple toggle switch in the panel, but there is also a stand-alone controller called "EI Commander" that gives you more control over your electronic ignition system.

Anyone running with one of those? To have the ability to tune your ignition in flight is pretty cool.
 
Jay Honeck said:
The guy at EMAGS told me that the timing should be retarded somewhat when running mogas for best performance. This can be accomplished with a simple toggle switch in the panel, but there is also a stand-alone controller called "EI Commander" that gives you more control over your electronic ignition system.

Anyone running with one of those? To have the ability to tune your ignition in flight is pretty cool.
Click to expand...

Why would you want to do that? Why would you want to fiddle with your ignition timing in the phase of flight where it would make little to no difference? Ask yourself, why do cars need variable ignition timing? Why is it not all that important for airplanes?

The claims of greatly improved performance in airplanes with electronic ignition are grossly exaggerated. There is potential for improvement, but in cruise is not where you will find them.
 
Can you run one plug on an old fashioned mag and the other on the electronic ignition system? I'm guessing not due to timing issues, but it seems like it would provide a "belt & suspenders" sort of thing.
 
Brad Z said:
Can you run one plug on an old fashioned mag and the other on the electronic ignition system? I'm guessing not due to timing issues, but it seems like it would provide a "belt & suspenders" sort of thing.
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Yes you can, but you lose the benefits of electronic timing because your old school mag's fixed timing drives the fight. Considering just how low a double mag failure is as a mode, you're not gaining anything by just replacing one mag. When considering these things have displayed failures of their own, it doesn't seem as though there is much economy to them on a standalone basis. In order to realize the supposed savings you have to go dual. Otherwise by themselves they're no more reduntant mechanically than the trusty old mag. Of course, being an ExAB the OP can manage his old mags however the hell he wants and save some money, which is what I'd be doing if my damn Arrow was allowed into the g-d part 23 rewritten "primary-non-commercial" category already.

Instead, I simmer in certified hell, minimize my expenditures to the absolute min mx required, and try to manage my growing lack of enthusiasm for this expenditure in a way that is able to survive long enough to see some re-motivating reprieve, such as said re-write, or a magic unicorn resurgence in 4 seater experimentals of the 130-150kt variety for pa-28 prices, before I become disheartened enough to leave the avocation altogether on the basis of cost versus flying afforded.
 
Brad Z said:
Can you run one plug on an old fashioned mag and the other on the electronic ignition system? I'm guessing not due to timing issues, but it seems like it would provide a "belt & suspenders" sort of thing.
Click to expand...

Until recently, retaining one mag was the norm. This was because of the fear of losing your electronic ignition back-ups, which at that time consisted of second alternators, secondary batteries, and other expensive and complex add-ons.

With the advent of Emags that have built-in alternators, that fear largely went away. Emags can run entirely on their own power, or on ship's power. This gives you triple redundancy, and, IMHO, makes it safe to run a purely electronic automotive style ignition.

Another part of the equation is that a regular mag often fires the spark plugs slightly after the electronic ignition does, so that when you have a half-and-half system, with (for example) the bottom plugs on the mag, and the top plugs on the Emag, the bottom plugs are firing late, accomplishing nothing. I've spoken with guys who actually turned the regular mag off, and noticed absolutely no difference.

I don't know what that does to the engine but my guess is that it's probably not good. I'd rather have two Emags, giving me the advantage of that hotter-than-mag spark, both firing at the same time.
 
I'm enjoying following this, as I know my day is coming... Keep us posted
 
Jay Honeck said:
Will do. We start the install on Tuesday, if all goes as planned.
Click to expand...
Awesome. Looking forward to hearing how it works out. I've thought about buying them several times but haven't ever found enough convincing evidence on the internet to convince me that they're more reliable then our trusty traditional magnetos. It should in theory be an awesome solution. I just haven't seen enough in service to make me drop the money.
 
my light speed has had zero maint other than new plugs in 15 years. ive never had a mag live that long.

bob
 
Jay,

I've been flying with dual Pmags since first flight back in 2008, they've been running great ever since. I change the plugs at every condition inspection, not required but the NGK's are so cheap why wouldn't you. You will like them.
 
Flying Scotsman said:
Jay,

I've been flying with dual Pmags since first flight back in 2008, they've been running great ever since. I change the plugs at every condition inspection, not required but the NGK's are so cheap why wouldn't you. You will like them.
Click to expand...

Excellent! Glad to hear it.
 
I get a bang out of the "built-in alternator" thing. A magneto has a built-in alternator too. They all do. The E-mag just uses electronic switching to break the primary coil's flow instead of mechanically-operated points, just like Briggs and Stratton and Mercury and Evinrude did a long time ago with their "Breakerless" ignitions. And todays lawnmowers and outboards have far less ignition trouble than the old ones did. If E-mag is having failures, it might have to do with the need for more robust electronics, better cooling, or maybe just better sparkplugs. Sometimes a plug that doesn't fire can cause mayhem with sensitive stuff. Magnetos are built so that the spark can jump to ground inside the mag if the plug is open or disconnected.

A few years ago Toyota had TV commercials boasting of their "big ol' leaf springs" in their pickups, that gave the truck such toughness and agility. I laughed. My 1951 International had big ol' leaf springs on both front and rear axles.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Another part of the equation is that a regular mag often fires the spark plugs slightly after the electronic ignition does, so that when you have a half-and-half system, with (for example) the bottom plugs on the mag, and the top plugs on the Emag, the bottom plugs are firing late, accomplishing nothing. I've spoken with guys who actually turned the regular mag off, and noticed absolutely no difference.

I don't know what that does to the engine but my guess is that it's probably not good. I'd rather have two Emags, giving me the advantage of that hotter-than-mag spark, both firing at the same time.
Click to expand...

I was under the impression that even with dual mags they do not fire at the same time on purpose. It has to do with propagating the flame front (it's not supposed to be an explosion-that's detonation which is bad) more evenly and completely. Please make sure you check with someone way more knowledgeable than me before you set the up for exactly the same timing.

John
 
jsstevens said:
I was under the impression that even with dual mags they do not fire at the same time on purpose. It has to do with propagating the flame front (it's not supposed to be an explosion-that's detonation which is bad) more evenly and completely. Please make sure you check with someone way more knowledgeable than me before you set the up for exactly the same timing.

John
Click to expand...

I am not aware of any way to time old-school mags to fire as precisely as you describe.

What you're describing sounds optimal, however, and I hope the Emags can achieve this sort of timing precision.
 
Jay Honeck said:
I am not aware of any way to time old-school mags to fire as precisely as you describe.

What you're describing sounds optimal, however, and I hope the Emags can achieve this sort of timing precision.
Click to expand...

Depends on what you consider precise. At any rate, here's a good article on the concepts (and apparently I remembered a special case on the intentionally different timing-most are timed the same). http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/184370-1.html

John
 
jsstevens said:
Depends on what you consider precise. At any rate, here's a good article on the concepts (and apparently I remembered a special case on the intentionally different timing-most are timed the same). http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/184370-1.html

John
Click to expand...

Interesting, thanks for the link.

As anyone who has ever used a buzz box to time the mags knows, it is a fairly imprecise art that requires much nudging, jiggling, and a few choice curse words. I am looking forward to the precision of electronic ignition.
 
I found this discussion most useful when doing my research. Hoping for some show pricing this spring to bring me into the 20th century since I am not a Hotel Magnate like Jay:

monopoly-man.jpg
 
Jay Honeck said:
So I'm doing my condition inspection on my RV-8A, and figure that, with 650 hours on them, I should swap out my Slick mags for rebuilt ones. The plane is running great, but Slick recommends doing this at 500 hours.

Or...

I could throw my mags in the trash (alongside my old vacuum pump), install an electronic ignition system (similar to what cars have had since the 1970s), and enjoy the benefits of a modern, computer controlled engine ignition system.

After much consultation and study I have opted to install EMags (sometimes known as PMags), made by these folks: http://www.emagair.com. Each Emag has a built-in alternator, eliminating the need for the fairly elaborate battery backup systems that earlier aircraft electronic ignitions required.

I will be installing them next week. Anyone else flying with them? Any gotchas on the installation, or words of wisdom?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I'll take the slicks for the cost of shipping.
 
bnt83 said:
I'll take the slicks for the cost of shipping.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I'm giving the whole system to my A&P buddy, in exchange for future favors.

Here are some pictures from today's efforts. (I've got several guys watching and learning from my guy so they can install EMags on their RVs.)

We put about 7 hours in, and have all the hard stuff done. Tomorrow we finish the plug wires, install a couple of blast tubes, time it and fire it up.

7ba2d43f0b8e54bcdbcce1145acff711.jpg


b21467fa68b251f6265a91a73289d781.jpg


ddda658934009594db300ce1021ca319.jpg


d3edcfcced7e68cbb0280e6ae4a3b314.jpg
 
Well I tried. Hope it works out and you like the change.
 
If Pmags are out for an io-540 around the time I get ready to mount my engine then I'll give it a go.
 
OkieAviator said:
If Pmags are out for an io-540 around the time I get ready to mount my engine then I'll give it a go.
Click to expand...

Probably a better chance of someone coming out with a cheap diesel or viable electric motor before that happens. :rolleyes::D
 
When I ditched my slicks on my 185, I would have loved to put those p-mags on there vs the bendix, but alas not a option for a certified plane, you know, for the saftey of the children or some chit


Glad the FAA is keeping us safe and insulated from the tech of the 21st century....

Part 23 rewrite...part 23 rewrite....bueller?


Also while you're in the shop, you should point out to your AP that the small wheel is on the wrong end of that RV ;)
All jokes aside, good looking plane
 
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Jay Honeck said:
Real world results (according to people who have switched to them) include easier starting, much smoother operation, and a 10 - 15% decrease in fuel burn at cruise.

Also, no more adjusting timing with a buzz box, and no more rebuilding mags.

I'm stoked. I think it will be a great upgrade.
Click to expand...
Well, hopefully the reliability has improved. Had some friends with them a while back. One basically owned three units, since one was usually being returned for work. Another had problems as well, including one mag changing timing on takeoff and causing a severe power loss.

Neither were very pleased with them. IIRC, one switched to Lightspeeds and was quite happy (though significantly poorer).

Now, again, these were early adoptors... hopefully the bugs are out.

Ron Wanttaja
 
Jay Honeck said:
Tomorrow we finish the plug wires, install a couple of blast tubes, time it and fire it up.
Click to expand...

I have read that some installations that skipped the blast tubes had issues. Sounds like you're on it.
 
Sam D said:
I have read that some installations that skipped the blast tubes had issues. Sounds like you're on it.
Click to expand...
Speaking of blast tubes...here's two pictures of our new blue blast tubes. (Yes, the tubing is from Lowe's Aircraft Supply, and is actually flexible conduit for 240 volt wiring installations.)

First ground runs are in the book. Damn, it starts and runs like a car!

Only glitch in the entire installation: My tachometer was reading exactly double actual RPM. A quick call to GRT Avionics tech support (to tell us what parameter to change in our engine monitor) and we were back to normal.

It set off all sorts of alarms in my EFIS when the tach hit 3200 RPM. lol

Grand total time to install, with a guy who has done it before: 10 hours. Double that if you've never installed one before.

Tomorrow we fly it!

8b4de527100cffe06792d40c77b71673.jpg


6a417e8164d2d666fb7e697efa45c5a4.jpg
 
Well over 100hrs on my friend's RV7 with no problems and I like how it runs and starts. When I built my RV7 I got two brand new Slick mags as I didn't want anything to do with electronic ignition. When I went to start it the first time the engine would fire and kick back. My IA friend was watching and said it sounded like the mag was 180 off. Sure enough when we checked it it was internally timed for left hand rotation even though it was marked as a right hand rotation. The factory had gotten that wrong. When I did the third engine run up the right mag quit dead. Checked it and the coil had died. Called Slick and and they would not send me a coil but I had to send the mag for warranty and it would take two weeks or more. The airplane was ready to fly after a 11/2 year build so I had to buy a new coil so I could fly. So my experience with Slick mags was two for two bad brand new mags. I've flown several airplanes with electronic ignition and they all ran great. Don
 
yakdriver said:
Well over 100hrs on my friend's RV7 with no problems and I like how it runs and starts. When I built my RV7 I got two brand new Slick mags as I didn't want anything to do with electronic ignition. When I went to start it the first time the engine would fire and kick back. My IA friend was watching and said it sounded like the mag was 180 off. Sure enough when we checked it it was internally timed for left hand rotation even though it was marked as a right hand rotation. The factory had gotten that wrong. When I did the third engine run up the right mag quit dead. Checked it and the coil had died. Called Slick and and they would not send me a coil but I had to send the mag for warranty and it would take two weeks or more. The airplane was ready to fly after a 11/2 year build so I had to buy a new coil so I could fly. So my experience with Slick mags was two for two bad brand new mags. I've flown several airplanes with electronic ignition and they all ran great. Don
Click to expand...

I have had pretty good luck with mags. I've only lost one totally in 22 years and 2500 hours.

But regardless, I'm excited to have a modern ignition system. I will report back on our flight test, if I can ever get out of the office today!
 
Three successful test flights of 15, 30, and 30 minutes this afternoon. New electronic ignition working great.

Oil temps are slightly higher than before, but CHTs are normal. That hotter sparking ignition runs hotter than the old magnetos, as predicted.

I took some pix as we flew around the area... So far, so good.

228f27c879bb68c3c7ae59c3f8f56f01.jpg


ae11d2e64eab2303232fd53325deb0d7.jpg
 
You'll like the mags Jay; I've installed three sets of Pmags and nary a hiccup on any of them (including an RV6 with around 300 hrs at last CI).
You'll likely find you won't need to prime as much and can get a exhaust POP if you do due to a much hotter spark every 180* of rotation. The Lycoming 6 cylinder units are in Beta test right now. Would have liked to have been a tester but a Velocity XLRG makes a lousy test platform.

Chris
 
Tom-D said:
I've decided to go with the dual Lightspeeds Electronic because the timing is adjusted automatically by MAP and RPM.

http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/Products/Ignition.htm
Click to expand...
I looked closely at Lightspeed. In fact, the guy who helped me install the Emags has dual Lightspeeds on his RV, and has for 13 years.

Despite this, he recommends (and I chose) Emags. Lightspeeds are much more complex to install, requiring an extra dedicated battery and (for many) another alternator. Emag eliminates both of these requirements with their integral alternator design.

I think if you're building an RV, Lightspeed is a good option. I think if you're retrofitting an RV, Emag is a better option.

Both are excellent systems, by all accounts.
 
The reason I'll go with Light speed is weight. what I can save in back, is less I must carry forward. Ounces count with the VariEze. plus the fact I don't have a set of drive gears for a new set of mags. ($400 bucks each)
 
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For a vfr airplane there is no reason to run a backup battery. The light speed will run down to about 6 volts. With prompt notice of a electrical failures, and shedding of the electrical load, the ignition will run for an hour or better on just the battery. The only thing that could get you in trouble is a battery going totally dead. Tom, you will love the lightspeed, I have run a single for 15 years and just switched to dual systems when my mag died. It took less than two hrs to install the second one.

Bob
 
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